Harvard Social club: admitting women could increase sexual misconduct

Parents Forum
61

@compmom -
“He has a point in a way. Segregating men and women in clubs WOULD prevent harassment and assault in those clubs.”

I believe it’s more complicated than that. Segregating men from women in clubs tends to lead to more sexist attitudes, and more harassment/assault when the men are finally sprung free, as it were. This is also true in societies that are sex-segregated overall. (Yes maybe if women aren’t allowed in a certain room then assaults don’t happen there, but that hardly seems relevant.)

If the question is, would Porcellian men be more likely to assault women, if women were members of their club. I suspect that we generally think “no” - if only because they would then not assault their own fellow members, lowering the chances. (And then over generations of gender mixing/equality, there would also hopefully be less assault overall.) It’s the stark difference between that thought, and what Storey said, that has all of us pretty upset.

Also, Storey takes for granted that “if women are around, they get assaulted or claim to be” which just opens the huge rape-culture can of worms right there.

I don’t know about the dorm number you quote, but remember that more kids live in dorms so the relevant statistic would be the per capita rapist numbers compared between samples of men living in co-ed dorms vs. fraternities or similar.

In general, most men do not sexually assault women, simply because most men have innate tendencies to become less turned on when their partner is less turned on (or crying, or asleep, or attempting to stab him in the eyes) - the problem is that the men who do assault women, tend to assault many, many women before they stop - often because they are protected by their chums.

ETA: it is the case, as I recall reading, that co-ed dorms do lead to more consensual sexual behavior. Some people who disapprove of this, advocate for single-sex living environments in spite of whatever negative results may come of it. Sometimes the same people who disapprove of consensual adolescent sexuality, are those who view women as “asking for it” etc.

62

The name “Porcellian” refers to the roast pork that members gathered to eat 200 years ago. I don’t know if they still do. This club is perhaps uniquely harmless because it doesn’t have parties. Members go there and hang out and drink. That’s it.

It’s true that Harvard could expel students for joining these clubs. Their membership is not secret. But even people like me who don’t like the clubs would object. It’s not my style.

63

Fretful mother, I thought that by adding my comment about the Shakers it would be clear that I was being a bit tongue in cheek about the simplistic thinking going on on this issue.

It is true, as Hanna says, that this is one club that doesn’t have the kinds of parties where trouble happens. The fact that no women are allowed in the Porcellian and no parties are held there means that no assaults on women can happen there. Under those conditions, this is unassailable fact. If those conditions change, so does the certainty. That is what the unfortunate Storey was apparently trying to say.

But we are all aware of the complex ramifications of gender segregation, though in the context of a culture that has much less of it than in the past, the effects of one little club are lessened.

64

“Segregating men and women in clubs WOULD prevent harassment and assault in those clubs. The Shakers did that…”

The Shakers were also celibate. Maybe that should be a condition for membership in Porcellian and other private clubs. I bet that would cut down on their membership! :wink:

65

My impression is that many Harvard students do not approve of Storey’s comments or the Porcellian and other final clubs. Here is the article published by Harvard’s version of The Onion, Satire V:
http://www.satirev.org/harvard/club-wealthy-white-men-comes-out-support-status-quo#.VxBkjhMrKMI

66

As I recall one of the women’s final clubs was called Isis. I wonder if they have changed to a new name in recent years.

67

I heard that women ARE allowed in the Porcellian Club. A Harvard friend told me that members’ wives are allowed on the second floor after 25 years of marriage. Maybe there’s some history of members sexually assaulting those women, and they aren’t anxious to push their luck further?

68

Well maybe women are allowed into the one room for non-members?

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porcellian_Club

69

Didn’t the social network have a shot of the bicycles where the hero meets the two guys who are interested in funding him?

70

^yup.
But its very possible that wasnt actually shot at the actual club

71

I am curious what you all think about women sailors being allowed on Navy submarines. Yay or nay?

Would you be perfectly comfortable with your daughters joining the Navy and living on a submarine, with a crew that is mostly male?

Not trying to be “that guy” here… just an honest question.

72

I’d feel similarly about a loved one on a submarine if they were male or female (scared but proud). There’s a pretty strong argument for a submarine being safer for women than an aircraft carrier because there’s nowhere to hide. And, of course, there’s a ton of sexual assault on men in all-male conditions. I don’t know if there are data about whether the presence of women reduces that risk.

73

I don’t see why not as it’s no different from being stationed on small surface warfare ships with similar(not same) issues with close quarters according to an older childhood neighbor who served on submarines after graduating from Annapolis.

Coincidentally, this article came up which discusses how it took time for public attitudes in and out of the Navy to adjust their perceptions and attitudes towards women being on surface warfare ships:

http://www.msc.navy.mil/sealift/2003/december/women.htm

It’s likely to be no different from how public attitudes within the Navy/armed forces and the greater public learned to adjust to racial integration in the armed forces, women serving in combat aviation, or now female soldiers attending and earning the coveted Ranger tab completing Ranger school.

http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/2015/10/16/3rd-woman-and-1st-female-reservist-dons-ranger-tab/74070360/

74

“But its very possible that wasnt actually shot at the actual club”

Very likely it was not. Very little of “The Social Network” was shot anywhere near Harvard. With a few very rare exceptions, Harvard does not allow movies to be filmed on campus, so the “Harvard” depicted in the movie was mostly shot at Johns Hopkins and a prep school. All you really need to pass for Harvard in a movie is a few buildings in the style of Red Brick Colonial. And maybe not even that. The Harvard stand-in for campus scenes in the old “Paper Chase” TV series was USC.

75

The study recommending that final clubs admit women was focused on the campus culture generally – not whether assaults were taking place at final club parties. Whether women enter the building is beside the point. The guy who made the statement was avoiding addressing the concerns that their clubs encouraged entitled attitudes and other flavors of sexism that occur in all male settings. These are the exact same concerns raised about college athletics and no one is saying “well there are no women being assaulted in the all male locker room, so we don’t need to be concerned about student-athlete attitudes regarding women and sex.”

I would guess that those students do their “pre-gaming” at the club and after some relaxing male bonding, go to parties where women are present or back to the dorms.

76

This is just terrible because Harpoon IPA is my go-to beer but I can no longer drink or serve it at my home in good conscious anymore while this foot-in-mouth disease suffering pig still runs the brewery.

Can anybody suggest a quality IPA for a replacement?

77

Support your local microbrewery. You can feel good about supporting a small local business and meet some very cool people in your community.

78

Lots of friends around me seem to love Sierra Nevada’s IPAs. A random person at an outdoor summer movie event I attended this past summer gave me a 6 pack of their Torpedo IPA rather than take it back home. Not too big on IPAs…but they were fine.

79

That’s the problem. Harpoon is my local microbrewery.

80

The good news @ClassicRockerDad is there are many great small breweries in New England.

maybe try:
Smuttynose IPA Finest Kind
Stoneface IPA
Lunch, Dinner and Another One (3 separate beers) by Maine Beer Company
Heady Topper