<p>Ditto here. I cannot understand why any financially able parent would not help their children at least partially. I know that my own parents (in their 70s) have the opinion that they started with nothing and are self-made, and that this imparts some degree of character and work ethic. But what it takes to do that today is WAY more than it was 50 years ago, or even 30 years ago. I personally feel that we owe our kids a college education as best we can afford.</p>
<p>We are not paying "full costs"...but we ARE paying about $28,000 per year....the difference between DS's merit aid and his cost of attendance. For many the amount we are paying out of pocket would exceed the cost of attendance....so I think we "count".</p>
<p>Lkf,</p>
<p>You've indicated an intent to help in some way with your children's educations. Surely that must give you some pleasure, yes?</p>
<p>Davidpien and I are referring to parents who choose not to help out at all, even though they have the resources to do so.</p>
<p>If I had failed to plan or save in any way for my children's education, I don't think I would consider myself the best person to teach my kids "financial responsibility". I personally would rather take out the loan for their education myself than to saddle my children with it at a time in their lives when they will be soon beginning careers, marriages and family. </p>
<p>You, timcobb and anyone else are welcome to disagree. I said "for many families"; I didn't say for all families. Other things may warm your heart; I was simply sharing with Davidpien the joy I will take in sending my kids out into the world free of college debt. </p>
<p>My parents did not value a college education. I did and I do to the point where I am willing to sacrifice financially to provide it for my children. I'm not sure what makes that disgusting, but each to his/her own...</p>
<p>Dizzymom,
We are not on completely different pages here. I want to provide the best possible college education for my kids, too. Like you, I also don't want to burden my kids with debt in their young adult life nor do I want to impose myself on them when I'm older. I was just a little hurt that you tied providing the education at the college of their choice to love. </p>
<p>
[quote]
We believe that cheerfully taking on the financial responsibility so that our four children can attend the college of their choice is one of the greatest gifts we can give them.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You're right, it is. I really wish we could have done that, but for our situation the dream college just wasn't the financially responsible thing to do.</p>
<p>Just wanted to add though that it's not really fair to compare the purchase of a car (BMW vs. Ford) with education, since education is all about potential as well as momentary benefit. Drive a BMW for four years, and you have four years of enjoyment out of it plus the debt. Go to the best college you can and take advantage of it, and you'll still be reaping the benefits mentally, socially, and likely economically many years later.</p>
<p>Someone mentioned going to a competitive school to learn to be a teacher as a waste of money. I just don't think so. It's worth it for the individual to gain that experience, that quality of learning, that opportunity to be the best teacher they can be, even if it won't pay off the loans immediately.</p>
<p>I think the fundamental disagreement, if there is one, is over the value of knowledge alone. $200,000 still seems to me like a steal for the experiences of college for someone who's ready to take advantage of them.</p>
<p>We would have paid the "full" tuition if it was required. We knew it was a possibility. Lots of son's hard work and luck lowered the cost to about that of State U.
I paid my way, owed 20K at the end. My parents gave me 1K my last yr of pharmacy school and a place to live during school if I needed one. My mother was always giving me bills along the way, my car (that she drove), the insurance, the credit payments for my birthday present ring. That's just the way it was. My mom brags about helping put me through school. I realized several years ago that being upset about my mother bragging was worthless. In her mind she did everything right. She means well and is very loving in so many ways. When I graduated the 20K was $600 a month-way too much for my salary. I consolidated and it took almost 18 yrs to pay off. One of my big goals was to be able to give my child a debt free education.<br>
We are very fortunate to be able to send our child to his school w/o debt on his part. He is very grateful, he knows he is fortunate. It is a gift and it does give me pleasure.</p>
<p>^congrats, Iamom. I'm sure you will be "repaid" in the future--with money or something better...</p>
<p>lamom has communicated so well what I apparently failed to get across.</p>
<p>alphabet soup -- I couldn't agree with you more! That's why I can't get behind Timcobb's claim that a child's college education "is just another investment".</p>
<p>lkf -- no, we are not on completely different pages. And I must hasten to explain that for the first two, while we did pay for out-of-state tuition, it was not what I would call a "dream college". It was giving them an experience away from home, which was far, far better than the community college experience they were willing to settle for before our encouragement to reach beyond that(we were financially responsible, but they did not reside with us full time). </p>
<p>Under any circumstances, however, if a young person of 17 or 18 manages to achieve entrance to a top-tier university as our S has, which in this day and age clearly requires enormous discipline and sacrifice on the part of the student, I won't ask my S to also carry the full responsibility of the financial burden for that education. If we were financially compromised, we would apply for financial aid or loans. Otherwise, we have the option to help out or pay the debt in full.</p>
<p>In my case, as I said before, it really is a joy to tell S that it is our intention to make him free of the financial burden. If I could not afford it outright, I would rather take out the loan than ask him to assume that responsibility after his hard work of the last five years and the hard work yet to come in his life. Obviously, not all will agree. Perhaps that will make my S more grateful to have me as a parent :-)</p>
<p>As a freshman older than most (21), someone who took a year off after high school to make money for college, and growing up in a working-class single-parent family (which not many kids who go to private colleges experience, at least in my opinion) I would like to say a couple things. </p>
<p>First of all, I happen to agree with almost everyone in this thread for different reasons. If a child has worked very hard, chosen a great school that suits THEM (not the parent), is willing to work in the summer/do work-study AND the parents can easily afford the education, then yes, I think they should pay as parents. Obviously, those are a lot of IF's. And that is because I have met so many students who take for granted their 5 credit cards, daddy's financial situation, speedy BMW's and designer clothes without even realizing or caring how to get these things for themselves. Even though it has been hard growing up relatively poor, at least I know what pitfalls to avoid, how to look after my finances (as well as a 21 year old can) and most importantly, the meaning of money.</p>
<p>Saying all that, I am the one who pays for college. Luckily, because of my situation, I was given a large grant from the college I'm at now. My older sister pays the rest ($5000) while I personally have around $4000 in loans per year. I know that at any time my sister may not be able to help, and I am willing to take up to $10,000 in loans per year. No more, simply because I am not planning on going into Investment Banking or the like therefore if I take out any more I know I will be paying off my loans forever, and I cannot do that; for me, it will be just the same as growing up poor, and I would rather settle for a lesser college than do that to myself. As you will notice, my mom has not offered to take out loans. One reason is her wealth (or lack thereof) but also because it was my choice to go to school in America when I could easily have stayed in England for probably 1/10th of the cost. I even pay for my own flights. I simply do not expect my mom to ever overcharge her credit card or take out loans for me because a) I'm an adult, b) she is too poor and I want her to have a decent retirement and c) it is not her fault she didn't plan her children & finances well (some of you may argue with this point, please don't, as everyone has different situations. people learn and grow from these things).</p>
<p>Sorry for going on for so long but I really do think it vital that yes, parents support their children in ANY way they can whether it's financially AND emotionally or just emotionally, but also that students would be willing to be financially responsible for their future should something happen to their parents.</p>
<p>Good luck to everyone taking out loans, and remember, if you wish to study abroad, England has some of the best schools in the world that are incredibly cheap and federal aid transfers!</p>
<p>I totally agree with blueangel.</p>
<p>I agree with the parents who are willing to do what they can and pay what they can afford to help their children graduate debt free. So many kids on CC have worked their butts off in school to get into such great schools, they inspire the support of their parents. </p>
<p>My mom paid for my college education (state school) and I feel obligated to do the same for my daughter. Similar to what I read about other students on CC, my child is pursuing all other means possible to lighten my load. These are wonderful kids and deserve their parent's support.</p>
<p>We very nearly pay full tuition, save for and institutional grant after an appeal.</p>
<p>We however planned very early on to pay for full tuition, if the kid was deserving. But most important, we were able to and gave our S the options to make the decision of higher education or career that he wanted without regard for money. </p>
<p>BTW, There are many careers-education that you cannot obtain with any amount of money.</p>
<p>6</p>
<p>As a parent anticipating sending 3 children (2 years apart) to college, I can say that what seems like "enough" annual income to afford full tuition on paper, or even to a child, may not be enough in the real world. College is so much more expensive than when I attended 25 years ago.</p>
<p>Growing up the daughter of a shoolteacher, there wasn't much cash to go around. In my situation, I attended a good school, but saved money by living at home and working. Also, none of us owned our own cars until senior year in college. My brother and sister both got merit-based aid, and I got some need-based aid the last year of schooling. My tuition -- 2500 a year for a private, 2nd tier liberal arts college. My dad never made more than 25,000 a year. 2500 was 10% of a schoolteacher's salary.</p>
<p>Compare today's education costs -- it will cost a minimum of 25,000 to send my child to school, probably more like 35,000 once room and board and fees are added in. The average schoolteacher's salary is 35,000 a year -- that means college is totally out of that parent's range without significant financial aid. Even a for parent making 100,000 (which is considered a pretty good salary), 35,000 is over 30% of that parent's salary (30% of an upper middle class salary, compared to 10% of a working class salary 25 years ago). Now add a couple of more kids who need to go to college, and that parent's salary could be completely eaten up with tution expenses. And savings -- I estimated how much I would need to save to fully fund my children's education -- I would have had to save over 1000 a month -- per child to meet the expected costs! How can anyone but a wealthy person do that? We saved what we could, but couldn't possibly save enough to fully fund a child's education. </p>
<p>This leads to accepting the concept of a heavy debt load, either for the child who is saddled with student loans, or for the parent, who borrows against the home, or withdraws from IRAs, 401Ks, etc. Parents are fooling themselves if they think they are doing their children a favor by taking from the investments for their own old age to fund their children's education. As a "sandwich generation" parent, I've seen what happens when elderly parents have nothing saved for their old age, and the children are scrambling around for resources to take care of elders because the options for someone who has only
Medicaid are extremely limited. The college debt will come home to roost in the child's lap as well, just in another form, if the parents wipe out their own assets. I am not talking about money to take that "golden years" cruise, but money needed to live on. And remember, there may be no more Social Security!</p>
<p>That is not to say that I wouldn't support my child in going to the school of his choice, particularly my first child, who really needs the right environment to thrive and is not the type of student who would get a merit scholarship, but I am also aware of the consequences of debt. As people become parents at a later age, the chance of a parent having a catastrophic illness, which is the major cause of bankruptcy in this country, is much higher. My brother and his wife just became parents -- she was 41, so by the time her little girl is in college, she will be 59. </p>
<p>It is very easy to label people as "selfish" when they are simply being cognizant of financial realities. Moreover, I don't know how many parents have sent their child to a "dream school" at considerable expense to have that child decide he or she hated it and withdraw or even flunk out within the first year. My own spouse (who learned from his experience) went to a "dream school" at considerable expense, when he had a full scholarship to a state school -- needless to say, he hated the environment at the dream school, and within 2 years, transferred to the state school, which his parents now had to pay for (he didn't graduate from there, either). He has already vowed to emphasize to our son that we are paying for this venture, and that if he does not choose to work hard, he will come home, get a job, and go to a state or community college at his own expense.</p>
<p>I know this doesn't have a lot to do with aid but are there any students/parents here who have thought that maybe college isn't the only option? Ok, I know the name of the website! But I feel that there are so many people that are either pushed into going to college, feel it's the right thing to do and so on...I would never say education isn't important (in my family, it's the most important thing) but there is a huge world out there and not every single person <em>has</em> to have a degree or they will fail life! Some of the most successful people in the world got to where they are because they became entrepeneurs in some way (either through business means, creative means and so on). There is such a stigma on people who choose not to go to college and there shouldn't be. Maybe that person already has a gift at making music or creating a magazine or writing. I know of many in the business world who say that experience is more important than a graduate degree. Anyway, I know this doesn't have a lot to do with aid, but money would certainly be saved if someone already knows what she or he wants to do <em>and</em> has a shot of doing it. Good luck to everyone (and their bank accounts).</p>
<p>It's refreshing to hear this discourse,</p>
<pre><code> I was definitely in the category of parents who refused to pay for college. When I was admitted to college out of high school, my family refused to pay a dime and said that "I had better figure out a way to pay for it, because there's no way we're making that kind of a commitment" They felt that my education was a fringe benefit, and a personal luxury that I chose for myself; Very much like purchasing a car to drive, or renting a nice apartment. As a result I attended community college and was then accepted to an even better college to which the same attitude was shown. I did receive several scholarships, but still had to take out significant loans to finance my time at Cal. Upon acceptance to graduate school my parents were irate with idea of any loans. My mother still admonishes me for taking out loans and attending UC Berkeley at all. She also frequently refused to help me with groceries and travel expenditures because I was working in a lab that didn't pay me. My family felt that if I could work for "free" then I obviously wasn't in very much need at all. Mind you that I'm the first in my family to attend college, but usually such a situation fosters parents wanting to help their child. It's very difficult for me to not resent their reasoning, and I'm doubly angry that upon acceptance to a top grad school in my field they absolutely refused and thought it was even more useless than my first degree.
I like reading that some parents want to give their children an education. It's far more than a investment monetarily. My whole paradigm of thought changed as a result of college, I'm no longer the same person (in many respects, not quite all :)
</code></pre>
<p>I'm a high school junior, but if I am ever to become well-off, I would only partially help my kid go t oschool, he would have to work for the rest/get merit aid/take out loans.</p>
<p>Work ethic is what it's all about... no one should live off of hand outs</p>
<p>Working hard in college contradicts "living off handouts"</p>
<pre><code> This is exactly the concept that keeps students from being successful all the time. Students who have to work 20 hours a week to pay for "their share" of tuition are not competitive with students whose only responsibility to their parents to make sure they get straight A's and then accepted to grad/medical/law school. Students like myself can put themselves through college but only the very hardest working can manage. Most students cannot handle the rigor of a top school AND paying for it. If your child is working their *ss off making sure they're at the top of their class and participating in internships and research positions that will help them be successful then you should certainly allow them that. If you're student doesn't does his/her work and isn't serious about college than of course it should be thier investment. Because of social stratification however, students who do not have their parental support regarding college tuition are at an extreme disadvantage. It's possible, but you sure see a lot more students who had college paid getting A's than the students who are working through the night to pay rent instead of study.
</code></pre>
<p>There's a person who graduate from my hs last year with 95 average who wanted to go to university. His parents (who are really well off) said that they wouldn't pay, (unis in Canada aren't as expensive, but he couldn't afford to pay for it by himself). This person did a lot for the school - yearbook, newspaper, music - but he has spent the last year saving money to go to business school next year, which means another year without an education. I feel really bad for him because he has worked really hard, but now his parents said he must pay the first year by himsef (around 15 K CDN) and then they will pay the rest. That is pretty selfish. My parents won't bankrupt themselves to give me an education (Stanford dreams fade) but they are willing to pay for some of it.</p>
<p>Red&Gold,</p>
<p>The point is that the student should be able to handle jobs, internships, and strait As all at once. Those who cannot will be weeded out and only the best will survive, it's Darwin at its best. Those people who can handle all of that will be much better off than the kid who had his parents pay his whole way.</p>
<p>I think there has to be a balance between financial prudence and heartlessness. I think to fail to offer to financially assist a gifted student to attend school is heartless. However, to expect the parents to foot the entire bill without the child even working a summer job and contributing a dime creaes a sense of entitlement on the part of the child. I also know of parents virtually bankrupting themselves for their children. We were the beneficiaries of this -- the second house that we owned was sold to us by parents who were putting their daughter through law school -- they were already way behind on property taxes, etc., etc.</p>
<p>In any case, it's financially impossible for a child to put himself through school nowadays. What kid can earn 40,000? Or even 20,000 in the course of a summer. I can't believe that I went to a 4-year school at 2500 a year 25 years ago, and could pay for most of it myself, but the minimum wage that most kids get working summer and part-time jobs has not gone up the way tuition has.</p>
<p>I also think colleges are being unrealistic by expecting students to be able to work part-time jobs, do tons of ECs, get straight As, etc. to be "acceptable". This Darwinian concept is responsible for the increase in depression, suicide, and other stress-related illnesses among our young people.</p>