<p>Cheating involves motivation and opportunity. And yes I believe that motivation CAN be affected by the pressure cooker environments our children currently live in. For the top students, getting a B is a disaster. Combine that with plenty of opportunities to cheat and we have a problem. Yes, most parents say their kids would never cheat. But the statistics say otherwise. All we can do is keep talking to our kids about the importance of integrity. Be good role models. PLUS let them know it's fine ... and we'll still be proud of them... if they go to a non-prestige school. This, I think, is where many parents fail. They are living through their children and they see themselves as failures if their kids don't get in the top schools. I see it on these boards. Yesterday, I read "I would hate to see all my daughter's hard work wasted on a state school." Wow. Think that kid is feeling any pressure? Let's all look in the mirror here.</p>
<p>First, I agree, MOWC, with those that say that the type of cheating described here was far beyond the "I didn't finish the book" scenario. That's what I'm talking about. And toneranger, is getting a B really a disaster? Or is stating that just feeding the fire? I know my S got plenty of B's along the way, not to mention a few C's. </p>
<p>As I've said all along, maybe I just didn't send my kids to the "right" sort of school. Y'know, the ones where a "B" is a disaster. So, they may have not had a chance to take Calc BC, but they knew a B or C wasn't the end of the world.</p>
<p>Garland: Your kids school does sound more relaxed and normal than ours. Ours is much like Cherry Hill East, described in the article. 30 students applied ED to UPenn last year. Egads! This is a public school! My son thought about it and then decided to give up. And yes, Bs are a big deal at this school. It's the kid with 92 averages who get tutors (back in my day, the kids who were failing got extra help). Our blessing is that, although our son is very bright and does well, he refused to put too much pressure on himself. He never saw himself fitting in with the stressed-out prestige-obsessed group at his school. He hung out with more relaxed types and is happy at a good but not "pressure cooker" school right now. He was rejected at the one Ivy he applied to - probably a good thing given his nature. So maybe he won't be a CEO anytime soon - we're just glad he's happy. And hopefully not cheating!</p>
<p>Well, I do think it's more relaxed and "normal" but I'd put down good money that, given a good description of it, 95% of CC wouldn't send their kids there!</p>
<p>Our high school is so relaxed it's practically asleep!</p>
<p>My kids go to a "pressure cooker" HS by some standards. For whatever reason, my kids have never seemed particularly bothered about the Bs & Cs that they managed to acquire & honestly do seem more interested in whether they mastered (or cared about) the subject matter. S still managed to get into several fine schools with good to great merit aid. D is in HS, but we believe she is learning quite well.
My S was extremely annoyed in one class he got an A in because the teacher didn't cover the textbook he bought, so after the class had ended, he read the book cover to cover before selling it to the next student. He still complains about teachers that don't do an adequate job of covering the material (to his standards), regardless of the grade he gets in the class.
He was extremely unhappy with the Statistics course he took at a local U because he felt this 6th grade class covered statistics more thoroughly & that the students at his HS were better-prepared for class & cared more about school than those he met at that U.
My D & S both have many friends that freak out if they even get an A-, never mind a B. Their cousin who goes to another competitive HS was like that & still allows grades to determine her happiness & calls her folks all the time about her grades.</p>
<p>well, how does this apply to the writing section on the SAT? My senior was told that you had to back up your position with the strongest arguments possible -- true or not. It was fine to make up stories to support your thesis. One child -- happily ensconced in a two-parent home -- chose to back up her "argument" by relating lessons learned from the death of her mother. Never happened. I had major problems with that. But it seems it's perfectly acceptable in SAT land.</p>
<p>
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Our high school is so relaxed it's practically asleep!
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Packmom, that line cracked me up!</p>
<p>
[quote]
well, how does this apply to the writing section on the SAT? My senior was told that you had to back up your position with the strongest arguments possible -- true or not. It was fine to make up stories to support your thesis. One child -- happily ensconced in a two-parent home -- chose to back up her "argument" by relating lessons learned from the death of her mother. Never happened. I had major problems with that. But it seems it's perfectly acceptable in SAT land.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Think of it this way....for a college app personal essay...it would not fly as it did not tell about the applicant as it was not true. Admissions would be based on wanting to learn information about the applicant. True information.</p>
<p>The SAT writing section is formulaic if you ask me. They have exact things you must do that they consider "good writing". Being creative doesn't really matter. Showing about yourself doesn't really matter. Having a thesis with supported arguments matter. I don't know that it has to be true. They may not outlaw fiction, as long as you have a point to make with supporting arguments and examples!</p>
<p>By the way, my kids' high school was not a pressure cooker either and the more I have learned over the years of what it can be like in such communities and schools, including apparently the one where I grew up in this article, Cherry Hill East, I say no thanks! I'm glad we are where we are. Like Garland, I agree that most of CC would not pick to send their kids to our HS. But my kids did well and any "pressure" was of the self motivated nature but not from peers, parents, or community or school. And ya know, they ended up at the same sorts of colleges or programs that kids coming out of pressure cookers get to go to anyway. </p>
<p>And no, I don't recall very many applying ED to college, surely were in the minority if they did. 30 applying to Penn? no way....one or two...actually my D did and got in and didn't want to go there.</p>
<p>soozievt:
[quote]
By the way, my kids' high school was not a pressure cooker either and the more I have learned over the years of what it can be like in such communities and schools, including apparently the one where I grew up in this article, Cherry Hill East, I say no thanks!
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</p>
<p>I couldn't agree more. </p>
<p>About 22 years ago we made the decision to move from tony Belmont (just outside Boston) back to our home town (and decidedly un-tony) Rochester NY. We had grown so tired of the dog-eat-dog, status, consumer-driven life that was Boston (and any big city really). </p>
<p>We have never regretted it for a moment. Never felt we needed to buy a BMW or a million dollar shack or a $100,000 kitchen or a $600 handbag. Not only that but it's allowed my kids to go to a fabulous, well-grounded high school - where I'm certain they've never felt compelled to cheat! </p>
<p>Cherry Hill East? I don't think so.</p>
<p>Yes, these ultra competitive schools are not the best environments for many students. I thought we were making a good choice by locating in a school district with a top 10 in the state high school. Looking back on it, there were pluses and minuses.
Pluses: Great teachers, wide range of challenging courses, many EC opportunities, large population lets you find your "niche". My son came out very well educated. He writes well, can do advanced math in his sleep, and loves reading. Some of his college courses seem easy in comparison.
Minuses: Crazy competitive environment. Prestige of schools matters a great deal to many students and parents. "Resume building" is common. Many students apply ED or to 10 or more schools. Need to practice year-round to make even JV on the sports teams (except for track maybe). Even the best students have tutors. Yuk.
So what' s closer to the real world - the relaxed school or the crazy competitive school? I guess it depends on your choices and where you live. I work in a corporate big-city environment and the atmosphere seems similar to the crazy high schools. Everybody just looks a bit older...</p>
<p>I honestly feel that my son's east coast boarding school (not one of the Top Ten) was NOT a pressure cooker. In fact, it was much less so than many of the local public high schools in Dallas. The academics were very challenging, but the environment was so supportive and nurturing, that it didn't have that cutthroat element to it. The emphasis was on learning rather than grades, and the minute a student started to struggle in ANY area, a team consisting of the classroom teacher, advisor and dorm monitor was all over it. Reading the New York Times and/or Wall Street Journal was considered as important as classroom work. Getting acceptances to elite colleges was not the purpose of the high school years at this school. A number of kids did wind up at highly selective colleges, but just as many found a "fit" at much less selective colleges.</p>
<p>Through CC and just through kids my kids know in other parts of the country, I am very grateful my children were not in such situations. I realize a lot of people here choose where to live based on "good schools" etc. But from what I hear of all that goes with it, I am glad we are not a part of it in terms of school or community pressures. I realize you may say your kids came out "well educated", but guess what? I think my kids (from unknown rural public HS that many of you would never consider) came out well educated too. My children were internally driven and had to work hard and were challenged, but it was not a competitive environment and there is no prestige seeking here, etc. And guess what? They still ended up at one of their first choice schools, top colleges, very competitive to get into. They ended up at the same place as kids coming out of these suburban competitive publics and private prep schools. They are faring just fine amongst them. As far as the aspects not related to school....no, they don't have designer handbags (they have no desire for them) and they don't drive the big name cars (though have a car that they share as the kids' car) and they don't exactly suffer or think less of what they do or have and actually, I believe they feel quite privileged with regard to have what they have, and to get to do what they do and go to whatever college they wanted, even if on massive finanicial aid :). They have many friends in college from school/community environments such as being discussed here. Their own community, friends, and school back home are just VERY different.</p>
<p>soozviet - bottom line is our son did fine - and fortunately did not get caught up in the insane pressure. Of course, we had NO idea of what this school was like when we chose the district. I went to high school in a small town in NY - talk about sleepy! His pre-school and elementary school were very nurturing - the middle school was also OK. It was the high school where we saw a big change - way too competitive in my humble opinion. My son, an excellent student, did very well. Be he did NOT get into his first choice schools (granted they were tough schools). At this particular school, there were just too many kids ahead of him in line. Some of his peers took close to 20 APs (imagine the weighted GPA) and would take the SAT four or five times to get closer to a perfect score. In the end, wer'e still OK with our choice - but I always wonder how it would have been if we moved out just a tad bit further out of the city - where things are quite a bit more laid back. Of course, then our commutes would have killed us...</p>
<p>My DD High school senior son is tutoring neighborhood kids to earn some money. The funny (sad?) thing is that the kids who he tutors A: all go to private schools and B: aren't having any significant problems with the subject he tutors them in. It's just a case of parental angst that has worked itself down to the elementary school level!!! Sigh. I am delighted that my kids both went to moderate big public high school. All DD's pressure and driveness was self-imposed. (HS sends a handful to ivies, and another handfull to top private schools each year. Everyone else heads to the local CC, ten percent head to flagship public U, the remainder to other state schools, work, military, culinary institutes, etc.) DS is not stressed at all, and his friends don't appear to be either. We had the option to send both kids to the local magnet high school, where the atmosphere is more rarified, but getting up at 6:00 a.m. would not work with my son's lifestyle. I'm so glad we chose as we did. :)</p>
<p>My DD High school senior son is tutoring neighborhood kids to earn some money. The funny (sad?) thing is that the kids who he tutors A: all go to private schools and B: aren't having any significant problems with the subject he tutors them in. It's just a case of parental angst that has worked itself down to the elementary school level!!! Sigh. I am delighted that my kids both went to moderate big public high school. All DD's pressure and driveness was self-imposed. (HS sends a handful to ivies, and another handfull to top private schools each year. Everyone else heads to the local CC, ten percent head to flagship public U, the remainder to other state schools, work, military, culinary institutes, etc.) DS is not stressed at all, and his friends don't appear to be either. We had the option to send both kids to the local magnet high school, where the atmosphere is more rarified, but getting up at 6:00 a.m. would not work with my son's lifestyle. I'm so glad we chose as we did. :)</p>
<p>I just talked to a friend whose D was just rejected ED. Very upsetting; maybe more to Mom than daughter. It's hard to see our kids rejected and maybe hard not to feel that WE'VE been rejected. I'm finding out that a lot of kids from our local HS send in apps at the last minute. Very few go beyond the northeast and I'm pretty sure most of the kids don't feel a lot of pressure. The ones who apply ED seem to feel it the most.</p>
<p>"rejected ED. Very upsetting; maybe more to Mom than daughter. It's hard to see our kids rejected and maybe hard not to feel that WE'VE been rejected. "</p>
<p>We talk about ultracompetitive schools pressuring our kids. Although some of this may be accurate, I think it is MORE true that the pressure comes from parents as noted in bethievt's post. I guess my D's school could be described as higher pressure...kids averaged 4 hours of homework/night for 5 academic classes, 10 to 15% go to Ivies, probably 30% total to Ivies or top tier LACs, 30 to 40% apply EA or ED (small class size, ~70/yr). But the pressure comes from the parents and the cheating comes from the kids. Many of D's friends' parents were aghast that D declined any prep classes or prep of any kind for standardized tests (with our FULL support)...even the tippety top kids in the class did Kaplan or something...school even did test prep classes over the summer. Although I was instrumental in assisting with researching colleges and setting up visits, all decisions were hers. Many friends and friends' parents were PO'd at my D for taking many APs, even though GPAs aren't weighted at her school. I was accosted by one mom who accused us of forcing our D to sign up for all APs so it would make her kid look bad. Frankly, I never knew which were classes were APs and which weren't; she only took classes she liked. My D was utterly disgusted at the cheating she observed, but felt reluctant to advise teachers of the cheating (copying papers, giving test answers, etc.) since it was such a small environment. Her drive was totally her own and not from us or from her school. Yes, she's one of those kids who got into all of the schools she applied to, including two Ivies, and is attending one of them. But what we told her was that she MUST find a college where she would be happy...if that were to be our local community college, fine. If that were to be University of Beijing, her dad and I would deal with it. Just find a good fit. I think she did.</p>
<p>I think the outrageous pressure that "leads" (whatever that means, I don't buy it) kids to cheat comes mostly from their homes.</p>
<p>Thirty years ago, my mother did a massive study of cheating and attitudes towards cheating at the private school where she taught (and that I attended). It was especially interesting because she did two extensive surveys, one of a separate boys' school and very different girls' school, and then four years later the same survey repeated for the co-ed school the boys' school had become by purchasing the girls' school.</p>
<p>I don't remember the results precisely, but I remember: (1) There was a lot of cheating, even in what was a much kinder and gentler era (and not more than a handful of non-WASP families in the school). (2) Three years after co-education, the girls' cheating practices and attitudes, which were very different in the initial survey, were almost precisely that of the boys (which did not change much over the four years). Now, to some extent, the demographic composition of the girls had changed, but not entirely; there were still plenty of girls who had started out at the old girls' school. So by process of elimination the atmosphere of the school (generally, very competitive in every respect) and peer behavior and attitudes (i.e., the boys) had to have a lot to do with cheating.</p>
<p>I have to say, my friend was very embarrassed that she felt this rejection so strongly. She just wants the best for her kids and really does believe there are a lot of great options out there for everybody. But it IS hard here in the NE to deal with the people who think anything but HYP (and MAYBE another 10 or 20 schools) is garbage and not worth attending or paying for.</p>