<p>My allergist is from RI. She characterizes her family as snobs who believe THE ONLY Us worth attending are ivies or top tiers. They absolutely couldn't understand and were appalled by her D's choice to go to Notre Dame over Tufts. The allergist totally supported her D & says it has been a good fit & D will be graduating from ND this spring.
We tried not to influence our S in his apps or final choices & are pleased that his U is a good fit. He refused to do any ED or EAs & in fact barely made the app deadlines.</p>
<p>Bethie, I'm a little confused. I live in the Northeast, sort of, and I'm a big educational snob. But everyone I know who has kids (or grandkids) of college or high school age these days knows how the demographics play out and what a crapshoot those 10 or 20 schools are. I've found that everyone knows one or five or ten fabulous kids who are going to schools that everyone didn't think were wonderful until the fabulous kids went there. So there are far more "top" schools than there used to be.</p>
<p>I agree that it's the parents that create a great deal of pressure for students. But the pressure flows down to the students AND their peers. So you could be a non-competitve relaxed parent, but many of your child's peers are obsessing about GPAs, rank, and getting into brand name schools. Since peers can be more important than parents at this stage, I think it DOES matter. And I think they have an impact on cheating behavior as well. Yes, parents can make a difference, but IMO, it's too simplistic to say it all comes from the home. Getting away from the pressure may require a move to a different environment in some cases. Yes, there are those strong souls who resist - but it can be very hard.<br>
It's definately a tough situation in the NE corrider - speaking from the perspective of a parent whose child actually chose one of those "garbage" schools over a few better ranked privates. Many around here think we're either cheap (no - we were willing to pay more) or stupid (no again). Whatever - our son is happy so WHO CARES?</p>
<p>In defense of the pressure cooker high school - their students are generally better prepared for the rigors of most schools. Even top students coming from the average suburban school may get a wake up call at a top tier college.</p>
<p>True, the pressure cooker HS prepares the kids really well & academically I haven't heard of any of them having problems at Us--socially that's a different story.
Actually, many kids say that the U is EASIER than HS was, even top Us! Never did think that making the kids work OVERLY HARD was good for their teen years, but it was the school they really wanted to attend. It was a good fit for S & if she was 100% healthy, it would be a good fit for D as well. With chronic health challenges, it is an exceedingly tough road.</p>
<p>Back in the late 70's we felt very little pressure to compete for top schools. If you were a good student, generally you went to a 'good' school. Even so, there will always be some kids in ALL schools - public, private, low-income, high-income, East, West, who will cheat for reasons only know to them. In the late 70's I took the latin Regents exam, that I desperately needed to pass. I noticed a few kids talking among themselves. More joined in and soon it seemed like half the class was comparing answers. The teacher saw them, but for some bizarre reason did nothing to stop them. She looked terrified. I got a call from the Principal a couple nights later demanding the names of students who cheated. I refused. My mother got on the phone and asked why he had singled me out, and was told it was because of my poor performance on the exam (a 69, but I passed). The top students were not cheating, it was the regular, middle of the class-type kids. I can't imagine pressure made them do it. Who knows whwat they were thinking.</p>
<p>
[quote]
In defense of the pressure cooker high school - their students are generally better prepared for the rigors of most schools. Even top students coming from the average suburban school may get a wake up call at a top tier college.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm not sure about that--the kids from the average schools who get into "top tier" colleges are the very tiptop students from those "average" schools, and I think generally have what it takes to survive at the "top tier." That's been true of the kids from our HS. In our family, D at top ten LAC graduated Phi Betta Kappa; S at an Ivy has a 3.6ish GPA. Yes, they do have to sometimes fill in some gaps in their educations, but they seem to thrive nevertheless.</p>
<p>I agree with much of what quiltguru wrote. I think in many of these circumstances, there are parents who strongly desire their kids to go to top colleges. As well, there is pressure from peers (who may also be pressured by their parents) and they are all a flutter talking about test scores and rank and names of where they are applying, etc. etc. For one thing, none of that is the case in my community. But also in our home, I really didn't care WHERE my kids went to college as far as WHICH colleges. They created their lists and they chose where to attend once acceptances rolled in. I did not have a preference. In fact, when D1 was narrowing down her acceptances to the final three to revisit, she cut out an Ivy she was accepted to and preferred two other colleges more. No problem for me. She didn't choose by prestige but was just looking for a school she loved and that fit her. </p>
<p>My biggest hope in the whole process was that each kid get into a school she really wanted to go to. As parents, we'd rather not see our kids disappointed, so I did want them to feel like they got in some place they really liked and were hoping to get to to go. When that happened, I was very glad for them. And more importantly, I am very grateful at how happy they are at the schools they chose. The name of the school wasn't paramount. It is true that they each ended up at highly selective colleges/programs but these schools truly fit them well. Had it been less selective schools where they would be happy, no problem. I know that they prefer challenging learning environments, so that was one factor in their decision, but they were looking at many factors in finding the right place for them. </p>
<p>Tom1944 wrote:
[quote]
In defense of the pressure cooker high school - their students are generally better prepared for the rigors of most schools. Even top students coming from the average suburban school may get a wake up call at a top tier college.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I have to disagree with this assumption about kids who come from schools such as my kids' unknown public schools (the un-pressure schools). I feel my kids were VERY prepared for the rigors of their very selective colleges and in fact, are exceling once there and have not struggled, though are being challenged. They have even been singled out on occasion in college for exemplary work. I really think it is the kid who gets into college, not the HS he/she came from. I doubt you would send your child to our HS, but I can assure you that they were prepared for the rigors of any college and that has proven to be the case now that they are there. My kids also had to write a lot in K-12 and just yesterday, my college soph D was remarking about how she just got an A in a challenging class at her university, in a field that is not her focus, about how her college friends were struggling with writing the papers. She was not struggling. Many of them were also choosing to take the easier classes no less. She couldn't picture choosing classes by which are the easiest but craves learning. So, she comes from a rural unknown school that may send a couple kids to very selective colleges per year, but is flourishing at her selective college. So, I don't think you have to have gone to some pressure cooker HS to succeed at the rigorous colleges.</p>
<p>I agree with toneranger. We are extremely laid back parents in terms of the pressures of school -- we could afford to be because our eldest is self-driven. But I think that drive came from her peers, who from the very beginning were a competitive bunch. And it is those peers that are making her crazy now, with a few blessed exceptions. Do I regret sending her to this private school? I'd love to have the money back, sure, but I do think the school and its faculty come from a good, nurturing place. It's just the demographic has shifted as to which parents are choosing to send their kids to the school. I'm afraid what I really regret is settling in the Northeast... but we can't go back 20 years and rethink that decision!</p>
<p>The down-time yesterday prevented much discussion of the horrible events at Springfield High School, near Philadelphia, on Wednesday. A junior who seemed like a dream kid -- Eagle Scout, volunteer fireman, goal-oriented -- stole an AK-47 from his father's locked safe, smuggled it into school with 20 rounds of ammunition, went to math class, then fired a few shots into the ceiling to clear the hallways and shot himself in front of the library. Why? His grades had gone down first quarter, and his parents said he had to cut back on his extracurriculars to spend more time on homework. </p>
<p>I can't imagine what his parents must feel like, even though the (apparently very nice) father has been on the news talking movingly about how stunned he is, how much he loved and loves his son, and begging other kids to talk to someone before they think of doing anything like that. But I have been watching my own son respond to the application-season pressure by doing a whole bunch of bizarre things -- on a much more trivial level -- that are based on a combination of self-doubt and anger at the world for making him doubt himself. It's awful to see, and objectively senseless. I'm glad there are no AK-47s around.</p>
<p>JHS:</p>
<p>How awful! Both my Ss had on their list schools they were pretty sure of getting into and that they would be happy attending. That feeling greatly removed the pressure from the whole application process. Essays still had to be written, forms filled, recs requested on time, but the feeling that their life would be over if they did not get into a dream school--or the school of their parents' or peers' dream was not there. I am so glad both attended a school where there is not a lot of pressure to get into top colleges, where people don't discuss rank, GPA or SAT scores. Neither S saw getting into a particular school as a vindication of his worth.</p>
<p>We live in the Philly area. This awful tragedy at Springfield high - tied to stress from poor grades. Plus students paying hackers to change grades in Cherry Hill, and a guidance counselor at a Camden high school who altered hundreds (maybe thousands) student transcripts for college over multiple years. There are so many signs that things are out of control...yet the madness continues. How do we make it stop???</p>
<ul>
<li><p>Pressure-cooker schools are not just pressure-cooking academic prowess. Conformity, status, consumerism and wealth are also cooking on high speed.</p></li>
<li><p>Everything, no matter what it is, is more highly valued by Americans if it is expensive. </p></li>
<li><p>Lifestyles and values (go ahead and flame me on that one - I still believe it) are different in different geographic regions of the country. Choose a lifestyle you like, then choose a place to live.</p></li>
<li><p>That said, mid-sized cities can offer a great standard of living - but the jobs are scarce.</p></li>
</ul>
<p>My daughter -- just deferred from her dream school -- read the Philadelphia Inquirer story about the school suicide with interest and not just a few nods. Very scary indeed. It's why when she heard about her deferral last night, I was almost relieved to hear plaintive wails coming from her room rather than the silence and defeat that could be a much more dangerous reaction. And Springfield isn't even one of Philly's highest-stress neighborhoods or school systems. The Penn Early Decisions are announced today at 5:00. There are 12 kids vying for those spots in my daughter's class alone. The tension in the air in Philadelphia today is thicker than the dense fog that descended oddly overnight. I guess we can only hug them and listen, because as my daughter said, "If one more person tells me everything will be all right and it will all work out, I'm going to scream!"</p>
<p>^ Sorry to hear about her disappointment ivoryK. :(</p>
<p>Delayed double-post. The server is still not great.</p>
<p>Marite wrote:
[quote]
Both my Ss had on their list schools they were pretty sure of getting into and that they would be happy attending. That feeling greatly removed the pressure from the whole application process. Essays still had to be written, forms filled, recs requested on time, but the feeling that their life would be over if they did not get into a dream school--or the school of their parents' or peers' dream was not there.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I very much relate to this post because that was how it was like for my kids. They liked all the schools on their list and naturally some were more favored over others. They did not have a "it has to be THIS ONE SCHOOL or else!" mentality. It was not a do or die that I am hearing on many posts on CC. No one school defined them. There was no crying or devastation if a school didn't come through. They knew the schools were chancy and kept an open mind. They were confident kids and knew they'd end up some place. Getting into college overall involves some anxiety and a lot of "unknown" as it is out of your hands once you send the apps. But if the college list is appropriate, some positive results should be yielded. If one's life is about "I must go to X school and if I don't get in, I'll be devastated", and if the kid is applying to schools with low admit rates, that can be a recipe for disaster. My kids KNEW that their schools with very low admit rates might not take them and if they didn't take them, it didn't mean they were not good enough. They knew it was a likely outcome given the odds overall for anyone. But there was no single school it HAD to be. </p>
<p>
[quote]
I am so glad both attended a school where there is not a lot of pressure to get into top colleges, where people don't discuss rank, GPA or SAT scores. Neither S saw getting into a particular school as a vindication of his worth.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The more I learn of what it is like elsewhere in other schools or communities, the more grateful I am that my kids' HS was like Marite's. These things were not discussed amongst peers and what school one got into wasn't related to their worth. Most of their peers were not even applying to the same schools. It wasn't a big topic at school. Toward spring, yes, they learned of where each one was ending up. </p>
<p>I understand the "disappointments" when a college one likes doesn't come through, but the way some get quite devastated, is a shame. My kids went into it knowing the odds were tough at the highly selective schools and so didn't expect to get in though they knew they had a chance as good as anyone else. My kids ended up getting into most of their schools and each had one full rejection. For D1, it was one of her favorites (not her ONLY favorite...which is key) and she did EA....to Yale...got deferred....eventually got denied in April...but the deferral did not upset her and she said she figured this was likely and it also wasn't her only favored school. D2 had one full rejection and it was one of her favorites and also one of the first she heard from. While disappointed, her life didn't revolve around success being equated with that one school. She got into most of the rest (a waitlist as well) and is attending one of her first choices. She had more than one first choice (she called 2 of them a first choice) and actually D1 had 3 first choices. It was way better that way, plus they liked the other schools on their list that were not referred to as "first choices". So, if one defines being successful in this process with getting into ONE particular school, and if the student is applying to quite selective ones with low admit rates, that can be a set up for disappointment. But if one defines being successful in this process with getting into one or more of the colleges on their list and they have a list of schools they would be happy to attend, it is a recipe for success.</p>
<p>Weenie wrote:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Pressure-cooker schools are not just pressure-cooking academic prowess. Conformity, status, consumerism and wealth are also cooking on high speed.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I totally agree. I know what such communities are like and grew up in suburbia and my kids have visited friends in other regions where that kind of thing is the norm. The more I see, the happier I am that we live in rural VT. Things like designer pocketbooks, cars, etc. just are not the thing with the kids here. My kids mix with all types from various backgrounds as to what they have or not. I'm glad it is this way. In college, they now are mixing more with kids who came out of schools like you are describing, though it hasn't been a problem....but it is very different than their home friends and they will remark about certain things that contrast. They love both sets of friends, but the differences in how they were brought up and so forth, are noticeable.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Lifestyles and values (go ahead and flame me on that one - I still believe it) are different in different geographic regions of the country. Choose a lifestyle you like, then choose a place to live.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think this is very true. As I mentioned, I grew up in Cherry Hill, NJ which is mentioned at the start of this thread. I now live in rural Vermont and my kids were born and raised here. I truly like this lifestyle for bringing up kids. I realize many on CC would not choose it. Then again, I'll be riding the ski lift (I live in a ski area town) and the other rider will say, "where do you live?" and when I respond, "I live HERE" or "look back over your shoulder at the valley and my house is about over there"....they will say, "really? wow, you are lucky to live here!" :D I don't think they realize someone might actually LIVE here, not just visit, LOL. </p>
<p>
[quote]
That said, mid-sized cities can offer a great standard of living - but the jobs are scarce.
[/quote]
It is true that jobs and careers, in some fields, may be harder to come by in certain areas. Also, the incomes will differ. Not everyone is willing to live in places like I live. However, I know many well educated folks who are professionals, who live in my neck of the woods, in the country. The commute may be farther, or they can work anywhere, and/or the income may be less. The trade offs are a choice and I happen to live in a community where a GREAT many of the inhabitants are NOT natives but chose to move here from other states for the lifestyle itself, even though they have graduate degrees and professional lines of work.</p>
<p>Marite and soozie:</p>
<p>I have tried my darndest to create the kind of feeling that you describe. My son has already gotten into a great school that I'm sure he would be happy attending (although his mother disagrees somewhat). He certainly does not have a single dream school in which he is heavily invested -- he believes (or at least says he believes) that there are myriad places he would love. His will probably be accepted by several of them. He is not that badly off.</p>
<p>But still. He hates to be rejected, to be judged wanting at all. He doesn't have much experience of how it feels when your reach exceeds your grasp (and what experience he has doesn't make him feel comfortable). I suspect he is nervous about his status with his peers -- will he lose their respect if he doesn't "win" this contest? (This is not my favorite aspect of his personality, but it's there nonetheless.) Most of the time, he revels in his strengths and doesn't brood much about his weaknesses, but the college application process has made him look at himself much more critically, and compare himself to a mythical population of superkids who will all be going to Harvard rather than to the actual, human kids he knows.</p>
<p>I really hope this passes in a few weeks, and he has a little respite from himself between then and mid-March, when he starts to feel tense again.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I suspect he is nervous about his status with his peers -- will he lose their respect if he doesn't "win" this contest?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is precisely why I'm so glad my kids went to the school they did and were pretty oblivious about their standing vis-</p>