Help: As Sept. gets closer, my dad gets more obsessive..

Parent Cafe
1

<p>I love my dad, in fact I have a closer relationship with him than with my mom, because he is willing to give me some freedom, but when it comes to colleges...it's another story. My dad is obsessed with prestige (mainly HYPS and "public" ivy prestige). He believes the only way to be sucessful is to go to one of those schools, but I believe it's more about networking and the experience one gets in the field. I could be wrong, but since I kind of have broad interests, I think that approach would work for me. </p>

<p>The whole college admissions thing started extremely early for me. I remember at age 7, my dad asking me which college I wanted to go to, and thinking back to an episode of "Blossom", I replied "Princeton, because their school colors are Halloween colors." </p>

<p>Of course, I have progressed in my thinking of what things I should look for a college, but my dad is a force to be reckoned with. I have even laid down the terms for him about my college list, by telling him that I will not show him the list until September (after all the visits). But every other week, he keeps on looking for little hints.</p>

<p>Starting from age 10 and beyond, my dad has been giving me the list of the US News College Rankings. At age 12, my dad made out a college list for me, WITHOUT any of my input into what I was looking for. He was slowly brainwashing me into thinking going to HYPS was the only way to be successful, but I discovered CC (when I was 14, yeah I know very early) and I read the posts about "fit" and "match", and how someone can still be successful at a school that isn't HYPS. Now I know HYPS are fantastic schools, but they just don't fit what I want.</p>

<p>My dad is determined to make me go to whatever school of HIS choice, even if it makes the whole family go bankrupt (when I told him I wasn't interested in Yale, he responded bluntly that I will apply to Yale, even if he has to write the essays for me). I can already see the brainwashing happening with my younger brother, and I am not liking what I see. </p>

<p>TO BE CONTINUED..</p>

2

<p>The above post should be on the other thread and titled: Junior parents what NOT to do to as your child approaches senior year and college applications!</p>

3

<p>thesiren. I'm sorry to hear this. Just out of curiousity... are his expectations reasonable? (Obviously, entry into HYPS etc. is a lottery for just about anyone... but do you have the academics etc. to apply?) If not, can you share some of the admitted student information with him to show him how you do/do not fit into the school profile? How about giving him one of the college admissions books that stresses fit,
and asking him to read it? Maybe a discussion with him about what it is he wants for you vs. what you want for you? Is he just in it for the prestige, or is he thinking that this will bring you a "good life" in the future? Maybe if that is the case, you could share with him the articles about how colleges chosen doesn't influence later income for students accepted to high-prestige schools but who chose to attend lower-prestige ones? (sorry, I can't remember the link or exact citation!) Try to talk with him when emotions are not high, and when you are not talking specific schools, but discussing underlying goals and values. Good luck.. I hope you both reach a happy compromise!</p>

4

<p>Here is the DOUBLE WHAMMY, on top with my dad being obsessed with prestige... part of his job is college admissions counselor. But by the way that he is acting as my senior year approaches, you wouldn't think that he is so fully qualified. I have seen my dad advise people in a good way about colleges, applications, etc., and I understand he wants only the best for me, but I've been telling him ever since he wrote out that college list for me, that what maythe best for someone else, may not be the best for me, but he refuses to listen. He isn't even taking in our financial situation...even though we don't qualify for fee wavers, we are so far away for the six-digit salary. At one time, my dad wanted me to apply to 20 schools, not to compare financial aid packets, but to collect "trophies". I have finally managed to negotiate it down to applying to only ten, but I want to apply to less (applicaton fees are expensive!!). It sometiems feels as if I am the parent who is always reminding the child not to fall in love with a school that is a financial reach. Most of the schools that I want to apply to are very generous with merit scholarships and financial aid, but there are a couple which could swing either way when it concerns financial aid. Looking at my list, it may seem as if I'm into the prestige thing,too...but I had to do a whole lot of whittling down on my list...and I have a reasons for every single school that is and isn't on my list.</p>

<p>My current list (in no particular order):
Rice
USC (I shudder to think how he is going to react when he sees this univ. on the college list)
Brown (he doesn't consider this a "real" ivy, but when he saw Brown in the top 20 on the last US News Rankings, he came around to the idea)
Northwestern
Univ. of Houston (safety:top 10% rule..the only public school in texas which I actually LOVE...he does not know this is my safety..I'm going to wait until Sept. to tell him about it)
WUSTL</p>

<p>My dad's list (in no particular order):
Northwestern (he got his masters here)
WUSTL
Yale
Princeton (his dream school back when he was applying to colleges)
Stanford (if he was applying right now, this would be his new dream school)
Harvard
Univ. of Michigan-Ann Arbor
UC-Berkeley
Tufts (he got another degree here)
Duke
College of William and Mary
UVA
UNC-Chapel Hill
Univ. of Texas-Austin (his reasoning...top 10% rule, automatic acceptance, can add to the list of "trophies")
Texas A&M ( same reason as above on UT-Austin)
Notre Dame
Rice (took him a year to come around to my decision of wanting to apply here)
Georgetown</p>

<p><em>sighs</em>... he actually expected me to apply to all of these schools...</p>

5

<p>Siren: Your Dad needs some help and counseling. He's apparently living his life vicariously through you. Is there a grandparent who can talk to him, ask him to lay off? Is there a clergyman you can speak to?</p>

<p>Also, why don't you point out to him all of the successful people who went to mid-tier schools. Much of the success of graduates of the Ivy League stems from the fact that their families had money/owned companies to begin with. Michael Dell started Dell computer while he as an undergraduate at the University of Texas. Condoleeza Rice went to the University of Denver. I don't think Arnold Schwarzenegger actually graduated from college. </p>

<p>It's your life.</p>

6

<p>To anxiousmom: Thank you for your advice, but my dad has all the college admissions books (he does do this for a living), he knows the school profile for all the schools, we've had the discusson of what I want vs. what he wants for me....his reply is "It doesn't matter if you are happy at college, in the end it's all about the name on the degree." :(</p>

7

<p>To BigGreen:The only grandparent I have is in Africa, and my dad basically went through the college admissions process by himself when he was around my age. My grandpa also kind of tried to enforce his will on my dad, by trying to make him become a doctor, and later on my dad did the same thing to me. My dad finally came to the realization that I don't have the love or passion for medicine, even though I do like to help people, so he's giving me the freedom to choose my career. My grandpa has tried the opposite approach on me than what he did with my dad, he is fully supportive of what I want to do,whether I want to be a starving artist or CEO. He thinks the sucessful people who went to mid-tier universities are the exception to the rule.</p>

8

<p>i would say get a job, save up some money, and pay for your own applications. tell your dad whatever he wants to hear, but apply to the schools you could actually see yourself at if admitted. you have quite a respectable list of schools, and it's not like you're taking a huge gamble by, say, applying to art school where jobs might be precarious. i dont know if your dad will insist on seeing your applications, but here is where you should resist if he does - tell him you had several teachers look over your essays and that you need to be able to get into college on your own without any of his college-counselor help. he cant force you to go to princeton if you dont get in, and you wont get in if you dont apply. it's your life, you're the one who is going to be spending 4 years there and living with the degree, and if your dad says he should decide for you since he'll be paying, tell him you'll pay him back with the fantastic job you get from your fabulous but non-HYPS school.</p>

9

<p>I don't know what to add. I'm frankly shocked that a person who does college admissions for a living (even part-time) would be such a prestige, umm, you know with his own child. I think you're handling this quite well -- be firm but polite and remind him over and over that this is YOUR process, not his.</p>

10

<p>To anxiousmom: I forgot to answer your question about whether his expectations are reasonable with my academic stats and etc. Yes, they are reasonable..even my counselors are urging me to apply to HYPS, because they think I stand a good chance (even with graduating early). I just smile and tell them "maybe" in a nice way, so that they don't get offended. By the way, because of my dad's work, he is very good friend's with my college counselor and guidance counselors...so there is no way that I can go to them for help.</p>

<p>To scarfmadness: Awesome idea about getting a job and paying for it by myself...too bad no one will hire me until I'm 17... I tried getting a job over the summer, so that I can start becoming more independant and have atleast a little control on some aspect of my life, but they wouldn't accept me based on age (six stores wouldn't accept based on age). I don't know if he will insist on seeing my essays neither...but I am absolutely determined to only let him read it after I have turned in all my applications. I've considered the fact that he might refuse to pay for college if I don't do it his way, which is why I am applying to schools which offer a good amount of merit aid (I know that 4 out of 6 schools I want to apply offer good amount of merit aid to even cover up to full tuition or half-tuition). The other two schools are pretty good with financial aid.</p>

11

<p>what about babysitting, or tutoring? you could even get the money from your dad, heh - i dont know if you still get an allowance, but you could say "hey, dad, $20 for mowing the lawn?" and so on. parental support is necessary and wonderful when it's positive, but when it is too controlling you should take steps to take care of yourself. it could be that your dad just needs a wake-up call, and if you show to him that you are responsible and independent and trustworthy - saving money and paying for your own apps is a great way to do that - maybe then he will realize that you're going to be ok no matter where you go to college, and that he should focus more on where you will be happy.</p>

12

<p>Iderochi: Thanks for the words of encouragement..I will try my best to convince him that it is my process, not his process. Slowly over time I have been convincing him about schools in which he wouldn't have even looked at twice (Rice and Brown), but I know that he would want me to apply to more schools and the schools of his choice, so that I can "trophy collect". I don't want to trophy collect, all I want to do is be at a school that is right for me and won't place a financial burden on my family. I'll try the babysitting idea. I already do tutoring, but most of the people that I tutor really can't afford to pay me, so I do it for free, and if the people still insist of paying me, I allow them to pay me back by baking me anything. No, I don't get allowance, wish I did though. Maybe I can start saving a dollar a day from the lunch money he gives me??</p>

<p>P.S.: When I tried getting a job over the summer, my dad was absolutely furious, even though it was during the summer, he said that I should focus on getting into college and he was against the idea of me getting a job, in fact he doesn't even want me to get a job while I'm at college. He won't focus on what schools are the best fit for me, even though he knows that I will be successful wherever I go (he has told me many times before that he knows that I am a survivor). Sometimes I think that all he wants to be able to do is to say to people that "My daughter goes Harvard, Princton, Yale, or Stanford." :(</p>

13

<p>Is the "trophy collecting" to validate his position as college counselor? If you suspect so, may want to confront him on this and remind him who the process is supposed to benefit.</p>

14

<p>To audiophile: I never thought about it that way, but he has no reason to to have me "trophy collect" to validate his position as a good college counselor. All the people he has advised have not been rejected from any of the schools they applied to (he's been advising for close to 25 years, so that is a lot of people). It's not like college advising is his full-time job...it just goes with the territory of his job (sorry I don't feel comfortable telling his exact job title..identity reasons).</p>

15

<p>I'm going to play devil's advocate here... but, let's look at this from another view. All the schools on your Dad's list, (except A&M IMHO) are good schools, and you would most likely get a great education and find good friends and opportunities at all of them. Unless you've spent a week or more at each of these schools, you can't really know what they are like. So, I have a suggestion. The texas publics all use the texas online app. - so you can fill that one out easily enough. Many of the schools on his/your list use the common app. and it is not much harder to apply to 15 schools than it is 8. See if you can negotiate a list that has most of his favorite colleges on, and most of yours - and if the total is higher than 10, so what? He's the one willing to pay postage and application fees, and maybe he'll help with the "administrative" side of the whole process by getting envelopes ready for the teacher reqs and stuff.<br>
Once you have actually got your admittance decisions in hand, and the cold reality of how much it would cost to attend, then you can negotiate for a good decision. (And you can work on your dad between the times the apps go out and the results come back!) Be upfront about your aversion/ or non-aversion to taking out personal loans.... spin some scenerios about what you would want to do ifyou were offered a full-ride to one of the schools and discuss the financial ramifications for your dad. My point is that there doesn't need to be a battle and lines drawn - at least certainly not at this point. Apply, then see where the chips end up. (besides... you might LOVE Stanford! :) )</p>

16

<p>TheSiren, as the father of two daughters I can relate. We have one freshman in college and one a junior in HS. I would remind your father that while we parents can visit and enjoy lots of colleges you kids have to narrow it down to one before May1st. The prevailing wind pattern changes April 1 and making up your mind will be hard. It will be hard for him also because he will have to give up some really super schools that will accept you. You can only go to one.
It sounds as if you two haven't gone through the usual deciding rituals: big school vs little school, east vs midwest vs west, urban vs suburban vs rural, single sex vs coed, state vs private. (probably what he is telling his clients)
Also you need to visit some schools. Many kids make their decision based on the visit and less tangible information than is available on the web. My daughter chose Barnard, after one visit. I thought she would have prefered Wellesley or Bryn Mawr. TheDad's daughter chose Smith, which was down on her list when she started her college trip. The daughter of one of my associates picked Westmont after five minutes on campus. She loved all four years there. Her parents thought that they were just beginning their college trip and had just gotten out of the car when she made up her mind.</p>

<p>In other words, the choice should be yours and it is difficult for us to even predict what you will choose much less make the decision for you.</p>

17

<p>Your posts are very thoughtful, thesiren. And I wish things were different. The good news that I see is that there is important overlap in your list and his with Rice and WUSTL. Before I got to the posted lists, I feared there would be no commonalities at all.</p>

<p>Can I assume that he is not <em>your</em> GC? Has he met with your GC (do they do that at your school)? Perhaps you can take this in phases - applying to the schools you most want which require additional essays (eg, Rice), then the common app schools. Maybe when he sees the amount of work involved, he will back off on the other schools with mucho essays etc. (Here's hoping he realizes that writing your Yale essay himself is not a plan).</p>

18

<p>Anxiousmom: You make very good points...I've visited Rice, UT-Austin, Texas A&M, and Univ. of Houston,UVA, College of William and Mary, Duke, UNC-Chapel Hill, and Yale...I only liked Rice and Univ. of Houston out of all those schools :( ... but things change year after year, so the schools could've drastically changed within a year or two. We will be going on college visits during the summer to all the eastern, southern, and western schools on the list. I'm willing to keep an open mind about all the schools on his list all the way up to the time I have to apply, but I would still feel guilty applying to a school in which I have no interest in. Maybe that is the only solution if it is to keep peace between my dad and I. But do you really think that if I were to get accepted to Stanford and USC, that my dad would allow me to to turn down Stanford in favor of USC? He'd probably mail in the deposit to Stanford without my consent or without me being aware of it.</p>

19

<p>thesiren72102, I was reading your web site and it sounds like you have a lot going for you. It can be hard to stand up for yourself at such a young age. </p>

<p>For jobs, try local health clubs/YMCAs. Our club hires age 14 and up for busboys, tennis center (year round), life guarding, golf and such (summer). Your parents do not need to be a member for a child to get a job. The biggest challenge with youth jobs is often getting to and fro.</p>

<p>In terms of college choices, my advice is to follow your instincts. Even if you make a "mistake", it's a process, not a destination. When I joined the Air Force at age 17 rather than going to college, my dad was so angry he threatened to never speak to me again. He got over it.</p>

20

<p>To Mardad: Thank you so much for the insight! I've talked to my dad in the past about what I want in a school..we even wrote it down..I will be visiting again, all the schools on the list, and I WILL fight for the schools that are "out of the question" (USC)..because if my dad and I are going to vist UC-Berkeley and UCLA, why not make a stop at USC?</p>

<p>Here is what I want:
has to be in a city (cannot be suburban or rural..if it's not smack dab in a city must be within walking distance of a city: Ex: Brown and Northwestern)
no heavy distribution requirements or a core
no large schools (UT-Austin is like a town, I honestly felt overwhelmed when I visited and I didn't like that feeling at all)
cannot have any religious affiliations (awesome schools with religious affiliations, but I would prefer not to have any)
must be attainable financially (I'm also considering my little bro....we are two grades apart)
must have an outlet for my passions:dance,theatre, and volunteering
must be racially diverse and economically diverse
majority of the school population must not be unconsciously (sp??) segregated (Ex: when I visited Duke it felt segregated)
play hard and party hard is there when one needs it</p>

<p>Here is what my dad wants:
must be prestigious
cannot be out of the U.S.
must be in college town (Ex: Princeton,Boston Chapel Hill, and etc.)
New York City is out of the question </p>

<p>Jmmom: I wish things were different,too. Oh no, my dad is not my GC, thank goodness for that! But, because of his job, he has to keep in close contact with the administration of my school, the guidance counselors, and the college counselor. He's very good friends with my GC and college counselor (college conselor works part time at HS and works for my dad part time...again can't disclose what he does for a living, it would be ridicolously easy to do a search and piece together little minor info that I have mentioned on CC). The main reason I do not want to apply to over eight schools is that I want to focus on each essay and actually put myself in each essay (even if I do reuse a few of them), and I feel that I would not be able to achieve this if I apply over eight schools. Thanks for your help, your posts are always thoughtful.</p>