Hi, new here with a problem.

Parents Forum
1

<p>Hi
This is my first post. I don't want to make it long. But it is a bit involved. I really need some advice from parents who may have been through this. I guess I will add the additional information in future posts when I receive some responses. But, I am at wits end here and could really use some help.</p>

<p>My problem is a common one. My oldest wants to quit college. BUT, unlike most other posts I have read, he DOES NOT have a strong back or a strong interest in anything else. I feel that if he doesn't make his living with his brain (and his is fairly decent one) he will end up either on OUR couch or his OWN rat infested one with a stupid video game controller in his hand.</p>

<p>Here are some things to consider:</p>

<p>He takes anti depressants, has for years, has switched meds, but all seem useless (I was on them for a while, and I am a bit skeptical about the whole thing)</p>

<p>He works for me, at my restaurant, part time. It is, at this time, hugely successful. But believe me, I've been at this thing for 30 years, and 95% of the time it was lean times with slim pickens. It is HELL ON EARTH as an occupation and I DO NOT want him to follow me into it. He, on the otherhand, says he wants to be a restauranteur. He is dreaming. He has NONE of the traits one needs to even have a SHOT at it. What he sees now, the crowds, the money, is what he thinks is NORMAL.......and I have told him over and over, its an ABERRATION, most restaurant guys, struggle and struggle big time. But he sees it and wants it.</p>

<p>My son NEVER wants to sacrifice for ANYTHING. He doesn't want to wait on ANY reward.
If you tell him that he can have $100 TODAY, or $10K at the end of the month, believe me, he would take the hundred today. He needs IMMEDIATE satisfaction. So, explaining to him that 4 years of college and perhaps more will put him on the right path is unimaginable to him. To compound this, he is NOT a good worker. While he puts in the effort time to time. He doesn't take orders well, he thinks he know WAY more than he really does.</p>

<p>My son hates himself. He is never happy. NEVER. And I know many of you will say...DEPRESSION. Depression causes this behavior and cure the depression and you will change the behavior. ANd I understand. I would be thrilled if it were that simple. But, I TRULY believe that his depression is CAUSED by his lack of drive and lack of sacrificing NOW for the future. He is UNWILLING to undergo ANY physical or mental discomfort in order to ACHIEVE anything. I believe he needs to CHANGE HIS BEHAVIOR, to sacrifice a bit and get rewarded. As he buckles down (at school, at the gym, ANYWHERE) good things will happen and he will begin to feel better about himself.......but that is a lot more difficult than popping a pill.</p>

<p>So if he quits, what do I do? Boot his butt out of the house??? I KNOW he will end up in some rat infested appartment with LESS THAN ADMIRABLE characters as roomies. I would bet my house on him picking the wrong path, not the "I'll show them" path and prove me wrong, which I would love to be proven wrong. But if I keep him home, he has NO REASON to try and improve. He will have food, shelter, luxuries. nothing to motivate him to become a better person.</p>

<p>I'm way to long on this post....sorry. I love my son, but his has been a mean, depressing, lazy thorn on my wife's and I side for a long long time. I want to see him happy, its been so long since I've seen him laugh. But, I tell you living with him and seeing the self pity, its driving ups crazy. And we've tried just about everything, I'm running out of stuff to try.</p>

<p>Oh, one last thing. This may be a desperation move, but have any of you heard about an outdoor school that has college credits called "NOLS". Its a wilderness school that teaches leadership and self determination AND gets credits from 400 or so well know colleges. I'm reading about it and am wondering if this could help the situation. I would have LOVED to have gotten the opportunity to experience this as a college kid, I think there is an OUTSIDE chance my son may be willing. But, I've just started researching it and I'm just not sure at this time.</p>

<p>Thank you very, very much for your time. I am REALLY looking forward to ANY responses. Have a nice day.</p>

<p>N</p>

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<p>Many many many hugs to you. Is there any way you could persuade him to join the military? I don’t come from a military background at all, but I do know several young guys whose lives were absolutely turned around by their military service. </p>

<p>I know, some former or current military person is going to say “hey, it’s not a dumping ground.” But the guys I know proved to be an asset to their country while in service, and are now having great college careers.</p>

<p>Edited because now that I think about it, does the military take folks with a documented history of depression?</p>

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<p>I don’t have a ton of advice on the depression front, but I do have a lot of friends who did NOLS courses and felt they were life changing. But, none of them were in the same sort of place as your son. Most of them were good students with a love of the Outdoors who wanted an intense outdoor experience</p>

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<p>I don’t know how much money you have or want to invest at this point, but there are some good therapeutic wilderness programs that focus on young adults (as opposed to teens) that might be helpful.</p>

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<p>My brother, not depressed at the time and just a little lost, joined the military and yes, it kicked him in the butt, taught him incredible skills, paid for him to finish college and so used his own money for grad school … now works in international business and is one of the hardest working most driven person I’ve ever met. I have never gotten the story behind how he decided to go that direction. </p>

<p>Other than that, I am reading a book entitled, Mindset, about fixed and growth mindsets and how living with one over the other can make an incredible differences to a life well lived.</p>

6

<p>I’m sure you have thought of therapy. Sometimes people don’t get the right kind of treatment and are put on medication immediately and the patient never does the hard work that the right kind of therapy requires. Have you looked into Cognitive Behavioral Therapy? I’d suggest that you look for a pro who has this training and specializes in CBT with young adults. It may take a few months of going once or twice a week to see results, but it could turn him around. It’s a very specific type of therapy that focuses on behavior and requires the patient to take responsibility for his life.</p>

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<p>“So if he quits, what do I do? Boot his butt out of the house??? I KNOW he will end up in some rat infested appartment with LESS THAN ADMIRABLE characters as roomies.”</p>

<p>Older S, 26, was in a similar situation several years ago, except that he was living rent free thousands of miles from home with a well-meaning, but misguided aunt who thought H and I were being mean when we told her that she should have S pay rent and follow house rules like cleaning his room.</p>

<p>When she retired and moved away, for a long time none of us knew where S was. When he resurfaced, he had moved with friends to a new city, gotten a job, and had booted out of his apartment one of his friends who had refused to work.</p>

<p>He’s been working that job – with promotions for 3 years now, and tells us that the way to get ahead in the world is to work hard.</p>

<p>He’s a smart guy who had flunked out of college with a below 1.0 gpa. He never returned to college, but at least is supporting himself. The tough love worked in our case.</p>

<p>Oh, and we had similar concerns about depression with him, too. We had offered to get treatment for him, but he had refused. Interestingly, that depressive behavior seemed to lift when he was really on his own. No indication of it now. That may be because the depression was due to his using lots of booze and drugs back then. He didn’t tell us that. We got that info when by accident we found his Internet blog, which detailed that info.</p>

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<p>^^ditto the CBT.</p>

<p>What I have read recently is that anti-depressive drugs are only part of the treatment, and CBT is the other part. Exercise helps, too (endorphins).</p>

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<p>I agree that the military could be the answer, however you can’t force him to join. What about Americorps, or some kind of culinary training? </p>

<p>If you are planning to hand down the business one day to him, you can use that as levarage to get him to do what you want. You can tell him that you will only do so once he proves himself to you, by getting a degree or serving in the military. I wish you the best of luck.</p>

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<p>As you state, depression is the main thing here. But I also want to mention that a lot of times we don’t see other viable career options outside of college, simply because we don’t know about them. It is not an either/or proposition: it’s not either college vs working in a restaurant; or college vs back breaking work. And while he may not have an interest yet in something, its more than likely he hasn’t even heard about 90% of the occupations out there. Possibly if he could go to a technical college and learn a trade or something more hands on, he would see his future and possibly his depression might be alleviated as well. </p>

<p>Thus for example, just off the top of my head: plumber, electrician, x-ray technician, web designer, air traffic controller, cardiology technician, gasfitter, welder…a quick search on a technical school and there are literally thousands of options. </p>

<p>Maybe one in-between solution is he can quit college and live at home, but only if he first finds an alternative path vis a vis technical training. </p>

<p>Just a thought.</p>

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<p>The fact that the he is working in a family restaurant means he hasn’t yet encountered the real world in which he will have to be assertive and competent in order to get and keep a job. From what I can tell, he doesn’t have a reason to change his behavior. He’s perfectly comfortable in his current situation.</p>

<p>Is he paying rent? Is he being treated like a normal employee in terms of being held accountable for producing good work? Doing these things also could help him get more on track.</p>

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<p>Isn’t this his decision?</p>

<p>What about a job in a restaurant—but not with you?</p>

13

<p>Gabagool,</p>

<p>No advice for you, but a huge amount of sympathy. This is a tough problem, both for your son to deal with, and for you to cope with. </p>

<p>I know a number of folks who have been on staff with NOLS. They’re very good people, but the expeditions are both mentally and physically very challenging.</p>

14

<p>I have many friends in the restaurant business and you are absolutely right about it being one of the most grueling businesses out there. </p>

<p>If he does quit college or even if he doesn’t, why not ask him to get a job at another restaurant…he should be able, with his expressed interest, to get one and, if he is motivated and away from you, he may actually do well. Tell him that you want him to learn from another restauranteur…he needs other management experience, perspective. But he also needs someone to hire him, validate that he is a worthwhile employee, a potential restaurant manager etc.</p>

<p>Depression may come from feeling unworthy and unable to meet, what he perceives, as impossible standards set by you. He may need some validation from someone other than you. My brother went through depression/drugs because he never felt that he could measure up to my dad who was amazingly successful. Once he went out on his own he surprised himself that he could be quite successful in a very different field and he could see his worth in others eyes rather than what he perceived as failure in our father’s eyes (mainly my brother’s perception, not reality). </p>

<p>You think that your success is a bit of a fluke mixed with hard work. Perhaps your son sees a tremendously successful man who thinks his son is a screwup. Perhaps he hears you warning against being inthe restaurant business because you assume he hasn’t got the aptitude (may be right) but he also is hearing is the dad he admires tell him he can’t be the same kind of man, he is already a failure. Perhaps your son is terrified of even more indicators of failure…he already hears from you that he is a disappointment…if he tries harder and still fails to meet his/your expectations or even major screw up, it is even worse. </p>

<p>You may want to go to a therapist yourself to teach you send the signals you want to send to him…you love him, you want the best for him, you don’t want him to suffer in a difficult business that he seems unsuited for…Perhaps the message he is getting instead is that he is doomed to failure, his father doesn’t want him to follow in his footsteps, he is lazy/irresponsible/useless…people hear the voices in their heads more than what others tell them. </p>

<p>sometimes my daughter, still so young, but perceptive will get frustrated when she does poorly in math (my field) and say “it’s hopeless, I’m a screw-up” I just want her to do OK and master the subject. I love that she can write and photograph and draw and dance and I can’t. But she knows I love math, she is still at that wonderful age where I am a bright star in her limited universe and she thinks I am a genius, so if she struggles with math in her mind that makes her stupid. Your son may not think you are a genius and is disrespectful and mean to you and your wife, but I bet my bottom dollar in his heart is a boy who deeply admires his father and is terrified he will never earn his respect and admiration.</p>

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<p>gabagool, I don’t have any wisdom for you, just {{hugs}}. </p>

<p>I don’t know about NOLS, but the Outward Bound “Intercept” program may be worth looking into. [Intercept</a> Program for At-Risk Teens by Outward Bound](<a href=“http://www.outwardbound.org/index.cfm/do/are.program_intercept]Intercept”>http://www.outwardbound.org/index.cfm/do/are.program_intercept)</p>

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<p>I would hate to see someone with depression having access to a gun (referring to the suggestion that he join the military). The number one risk factor for adolescent suicide is access to a gun. NOLS also involves some behaviors that can easily turn self-injurious (technical climbing, etc.)
He needs cognitive behavioral therapy, exercise, a schedule, opportunities to help others, all of which are therapeutic in depression.
You may not see him as able to own a restaurant, but what if he went for culinary arts training to learn to be a chef? This might be a compromise, and would keep him on a schedule for now, which would be therapeutic.</p>

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<p>It’s called ‘tough love.’ You pay for his schooling and when he chooses to leave school,
he chooses freedom/adulthood/school of hard knocks. Parents need lives too and are not
obliged to support their kids forever. My daughter has had problems with depression too.
It wasn’t until she found something she truly loved that she could wean herself off pills, mom and dad. Telling him he’s on his own doesn’t mean you don’t love him. No matter what arguement he may give you, stand your ground or he will do nothing forever.</p>

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<p>I second fineartsmom - have him get a job at someone’ else’s restaurant. It’s hard to know how much of his problem is just a fairly normal transitional crisis, and how much is pathology. You are probably at the point where he doesn’t hear you any more; that’s why another type of mentor should do the job.</p>

<p>If he can live at home, have him pay reasonable rent, and let him know the years of you supporting him are over. You can save a portion of the rent and give it to him as a moving out present, but set limits on the rest (behavior, chores)and stick to them. Don’t keep “trying everything” - he may take months or years to change, and he can’t live up to your standards if you keep changing the measure. He needs to find his own way; he is not you, and you can no longer do much for him at this age and in this situation except treat him like an adult. He probably has to fail somewhat before he finds his inner strength.</p>

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<p>This is easy. Stop over-providing. Tell him if he quits college that he will have 2 weeks to move out of your home. </p>

<p>Your son may need to flounder for awhile. That’s okay. Make that be okay. You nagging him or you coddling him will continue to have zero results. The nagging and coddling just make YOU feel better and creates zero results.</p>

<p>I wouldn’t necessarily fire him from your restaurant (though make sure he’s doing his work and pulling his own weight - if not, then do fire him) – but I would encourage him to work at a different restaurant. </p>

<p>Time to sour the milk. Some kids literally need to be booted out of the nest. Yes, of course, many of them will move out only to “sit on a rat infested couch and play video games”… you think it is depression, I say there is an element of “scr*ew my parents, I’ll show them just how lazy I can be” because they know it bugs the parents! It isn’t fully conscious, but it is there. When you stop letting that possibility bug you, then at least you have taken yourself out of the toxic equation and over time, for most kids, reality will dawn upon them that this is their OWN SHOW to create in life.</p>

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<p>Lots of great suggestions. In reading your post, a thought occurred to me. His “need” for medication may stem from not living life empowered. Instead, he has a built in job, college paid for, and a bug in his ear that he might go into the same business as you.
The suggestions get him out of his comfort zone so that he can explore who he is, and what he might like to do. You might also support his idea about going into the same business, and encourage him to find employment with another restaurateur. That way he could “earn” his stripes, and maybe see the business from a different vantage point.
You are asking good questions-G’Luck Dad!
-APOL-a mom</p>