<p>Have him transfer to a school with a hotel and restaurant management school, or send him to culinary school. Preferably one like the CIA which has a business school component. Then, he comes out with a business degree, and he can use it in whichever field, but it supports your desire to keep him in school. A college degree, even in hrt is a college degree. Who knows? It could be the best thing for him. Either way, good luck. I know its a major frustration when you can see your kids heading down a dead end road without a flashlight or a map.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>My mom’s youngest brother was, shall we say, a “ne’er do well.” High school drop out, marriages, divorces, unsupported kids, reposessed cars, job after job…he’d always end up sleeping on his parents’ couch. </p>
<p>Both of his parents passed away when he was in his early 30s. What do you know? He got his GED, got his bachelors degree, then his masters, and ended up being a respectable citizen.</p>
<p>Hopefully, some tough love on your part can transform your son in the same way - while you’re still around to appreciate it!</p>
<p>
I agree. One of the things I have learned from raising my own son is that our negative judgments, disappointments, doubts, and fears are always very obvious to our kids, while our love, faith and delight in them are never as clear to them as we think. So even though it’s 100% clear from your post, gabagool, that you love your son and care tremendously about him, it may not be as clear to him. I hope you can find ways, even through your worry and frustration, to make sure he knows this:
Good luck! I really do think because you care about him so much, he will turn out OK in the end.</p>
<p>I bet he would like Johnson and Wales University. There are four campuses. My friend’s son goes to the campus in Denver and loves it. Providence, North Miami, Denver, and Charlotte. [Johnson</a> & Wales University](<a href=“http://www.jwu.edu/default.aspx]Johnson”>http://www.jwu.edu/default.aspx)</p>
<p>I tried two different types of anti-depressants and both made me feel indifferent. I felt indifferent toward lifes real stresses and that was a relief, but I also felt indifferent toward exercise and my home. I stopped the medication except for St John’s Wort, started daily excersise, vitamin d and potassium. I don’t think that I had a serious depression problem because I felt so much better after my d went off to college. But I do think antidepressants have the potential to leave one lethargic and feeling comfortable to the extreme. That’s better than suicidal but I would get a second doctor’s opinion as to your son’s medication type and strength.</p>
<p>The military may screen him out because of the depression.
What about sending him to a relative/friend in another state or region? A friend did this with some great results. The kid went to live with a cousin (older, decent sort). The parent provided two months “seed” money and some set up basics (bed, teeny vehicle). Clapped the kid on the back and said “Go gettem Tiger!” and left.<br>
Kid is much neater and politer to cousin than was to parent. So far, so good. It is a fresh start on many levels. </p>
<p>You might also go for a walk with son (side by side means neither party is dominant) and do some brainstorming. There might be some things you would be willing to finance if son dedicated some time to service. Would he be willing to try Americorps? HAbitat for Humanity? Haiti restoration? He could see the world, do some good, be on his own – and, most importantly, see some people who are really in tough situations. He might just rise to the occasion and get good at doing good.</p>
<p>NOLS has been around for many decades. It saved a friend of mine, back in 1971. It is a great program. But it would probably be better if your son thought of this, rather than you, because it sort of seems like a modern-day reform school idea (like sending him off to military school). Or, does he like hiking and is he interested in exploring the Wyoming wilderness? Can it be presented as an opportunity rather than an effort to straighten him out, with any legitimacy?</p>
<p>I am sure you would not disagree that you are fairly judgemental of your son. Even if you feel this is justified, (and even if it is justified!) it may affect him in some ways. I agree with the person who said, in so many words, that it might help the situation if you could present your own feelings about him and his situation in a positive light, if possible.</p>
<p>I would not boot him out. I would try to find him more effective help. He does not sound capable yet of being out on his own. Depression is not laziness, and depression itself causes lack of motivation, as you obviously know: I don’t think you can assume the reverse is going on. </p>
<p>Depression is a true physiological problem (my father died of it, actually). Yes, meds and exercise and vitamins and supplements can help, but counseling/therapy would be crucial here, and counseling would also guide you in your decisions, reactions and feelings about what is going on. </p>
<p>CBT can work, but a lot of teens hate it. It treats them like lab rats, and involved homework. It does not go deep enough for some teens to respect it. I think any therapy that sets up a relationship would be good. This will take the heat off you and your relationship with your son.</p>
<p>Has your son been evaluated for ADD or ADHD or any learning issues? A good neuro-psych. evaluation might be good too. Sometimes you can get it covered by insurance.</p>
<p>Maybe you could honor his expressed interest in restaurants but detach it from parents: suggest Johnson and Wales or another hospitality/culinary school, Cordon Bleu etc. or management programs depending on the focus of his interest. Some state schools have programs in this area too. Community colleges have cooking classes and business classes, too. Or, encourage him to use his experience with you to get a job elsewhere. Learning by doing is a great way to go for him, for now.</p>
<p>There is nothing wrong with kids working in a restaurant for their parents. People have done this for generations, in some families. What matters is how you, and he, feel about it, and it sounds like having him work for you does not really make him a grown-up, in your family context.</p>
<p>Overall, I would be supportive but not enabling, firm but not angry, etc. Easy to say, hard to do. I know that only too well. In our experience, and we are now on our third child going through late adolescence, all kinds of unexpected problems crop up during the initial stages of this transition to college or work or living on their own, and after a year or so things tend to get a lot better. Good luck.</p>
<p>You may also be surprised how much it helps the situation if you tell your son your fears. As in “I am terrified that you will make the same mistakes I made.” Go ahead and tell him about the times you blew the order, dropped the platter, screwed up personnel schedules and the like. Tell him how hard it would be for you to watch him make the mistakes all beginners make. </p>
<p>You can navigate some middle ground – as in “go work for another restaurant and get a feel for it. Make your beginner mistakes on somebody else’s turf. Then the guy yelling at you isn’t your Dad.” Tell him to go work someplace else for six months and then the two of you will meet up and talk about what was good and what wasn’t and make a plan from there. </p>
<p>NOLS you might have loved. What would son love?</p>
<p>Wow
Im blown away here. Thank you SO VERY MUCH for all these responses.</p>
<p>Again, thanks for all the advice. Sorry about the last post, I ran in from the kitchen to check if I got ANY responses only to see 27! Its REALLY appreciated.</p>
<p>My son HAS inquired about the armed forces…God, while I am not against it, I can’t, for the life of me, see him being able to make it through boot camp!!! He can’t even hand his towel after he’s done! And he hasn’t stepped FOOT in a gym for about 6 years. But, even if he had, he was told that the anti depressants disqualify him as a candidate.
THAT made him feel WORSE about himself, he said that even the armed forces don’t want him.</p>
<p>My wife had a talk with him and its not pretty. He is ashamed of who he is, he feels bad that his little brother doesn’t have a big brother he could look up to. He is ackward around girls, REAL ackward, according to him. He has NO interest at all in ANY of his studies…
He just wants to work, to keep his mind off his unhapiness and make money. I explained to him the REALITY of $$ when you can only do menial jobs…and he has $$ tastebuds. He sees my biz doing well and thats ALL he sees. So I met him half way.</p>
<p>I told him that since he wanted to be a “chef”, that he would have to go about it MY way. Unless he could convince me that HE knew MORE about this business than what MY thirty years taught me, it would be foolish NOT to take my advice. And it went like this. He’s 20 now. He could go to a TOP culinary school, not a community college or the MILLION cheesy “culinary schools” that have opened up since the food channel went on the tube. After AT LEAST 2 years there, its off to Europe. First france for 2 years, where he will peel potatoes, and nothing else, for about 8 months, then sloooooooooowly move up to less mundane tasks. After a few years there he would head over to Italy, using some connections and work in HIGH END italian restaurants for a MINUMUM of 2 years. After that he heads back into the stats for 4 years in BIG CITY EATERIES, working for well known chefs in NY, San Fran, LA, Chicago, working for NOTHING if necessary, in order to have the opportunity to work with the best and to be able to name drop. AFTER ALL THAT, he could return home if he chose or venture out on his own, with my help, IF I am satisfied. So, lets see…2 years in F, 2 in It, AND 3 IN THE USA. Tack 7 years on to his age…28…He’s looking till 28 at the EARLIEST on when he will be ready to tackle the God Forsaken excuse of a career. Shoot he could have gone to law school and GRADUATED by then! There are a MILLION things he could do!!. Well he looked at me, with his mouth open, and stuttered through an explanation of why he doesn’t want to do that! Way to much time and effort!!! So much for this “LOVE” of cooking!!! Think about it, all expenses paid trip of living and working in EUROPE, working with REAL professionals…ARTISTS really!!! But, like I said before, he’s not much on sacrifice.</p>
<p>Unlike my Dad, I am open to him being ANYTHING he wants to be…if he wants to go to Hollywood and try screenwriting out FINE (excellent writer, really really good…HATES it.)
I would support him till his feet are on the ground. As long as I see and EFFORT, I would help him…WITH ANYTHING well thought out plan he want to try. But I NEVER wanted THIS for him, the food business. But even THAT I would allow, but no, even that involves too much of an effort for him.</p>
<p>Thanks for allowing me to vent. I got a gut feeling this is gonna get ugly. Real ugly. I’m afraid I’m gonna have to pull him from the gutter before he realizes how to get his act together. I guess some people NEVER learn unless they cannot sink any further. I’m just afraid, REAL AFRAID, that he wouldn be simply LYING in the gutter, he may just DYE in the gutter, and that would CRUSH me. I would not be able to live with the guilt. </p>
<p>Thanks again everyone. I want to REREAD the posts you guys left on this thread, its GOTTA help.</p>
<p>I like Olymom’s idea.</p>
<p>I am concerned that Dad is a little too much “my way or the highway.”</p>
<p>Let son work for someone else in the restaurant business and see if he really likes it. Not in the family business.</p>
<p>He doesn’t necessarily have to to to Europe to train with top chefs to learn if he does or does not have what it takes. I bet he will learn the lesson quickly working for someone else (not family) in this country!</p>
<p>I don’t get the sense he wants to be Julia Child, but he does need a does of reality.</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>Im ONLY highway or myway with RESTAURANT CAREER. And ONLY because I have 30 years experience in and never have closed a restaurant in all that time. I’ve struggled and struggled mightily but because of a STRONG BACK or a REAL LOVE for this business (which has faded alot) i have managed to succeed where so many other smarter and more talented people have failed.</p>
<p>ANY other endeavor he has in mind if just fine with me, I am open to ANYTHING ELSE, as long as I see he is giving it an EFFORT. The results could be disappointing, I don’t really care, I only want him to TRY HIS HARDEST. Because I know, if he tries, its gonna happen. It may take years, but it will happen.</p>
<p>If my son wanted to be a chef, the way you describe is the one way to do it right?</p>
<p>Evening Mam</p>
<p>Its a great way, but not the only way. It depends on your son. How much love, talent, work ethic, etc he possesses. Whatever the case, he will HAVE to be a top talent to make a good living AND have any type of life. You see, in this business, you ONLY make top dollar if you:</p>
<p>Own your own SUCCESSFUL place
Are a MAJOR, MAJOR talent as a chef
Are in the upper 1% in hospitality management
Or, the pipedream, get famous on TV.</p>
<p>You see, in other professions, the top top individuals make HUGE money, but there seems to be a nice chunk of individuals that earn a very, very nice living even though they may not be a superstar. Like an attorney. There are the FAMOUS ones, and there are the partnered big city ones, but all in all, if you are an attorney, there is pretty much a 50/50 chance you can make a nice life for yourself. Not so in this.</p>
<p>Sure there are millionaires made in the restaurant biz. But for every millionaire, ther are THOUSANDS that NEVER make enough to save, many, many with NO INSURANCE, NO PAID HOLIDAYS, 60-80 hour work weeks common, and those with a strong back ALL work a second job, and many even work THREE!! ( i DID FOR OVER A YEAR)…</p>
<p>You gotta LOVE this thing, I mean really be obsessed. Add talent. Add experience and there is a chance you make it.</p>
<p>Moonchild</p>
<p>My son has had three therapists. Two psychologists and one psychiatrist. He didn’t like the first two and sees the psychiatrist for meds once a month. I would LOVE to find someone he can talk to on a weekly basis, and I ask for names, but obviously many people will not give you any advice.</p>
<p>Northstarmom</p>
<p>Thanks for the reply. Its nice to here that your kid is making it. My son, like yours, did drugs earlier in his high school life. I may be wrong, but I think that he isn’t into drugs that much anymore.(And I realize how lucky we BOTH are).</p>
<p>Could you tell me something. You wrote that your son is “at least supporting himself”. Does he ever express regret or dissatisfaction the he isn’t earning more? I am pretty sure that my son MAY be able to “support hisself”, but knowing him, he will see what other people who he graduated with are making and that will make him hate himself even more. He know how important how much one makes is in this society and his self esteem will plummet. THAT is what I fear the most. He is so unhappy. My heart breaks. Do you know how many times I’ve watched Superbad with him, just so I can see him laugh every so ofter. I hate and love that movie.</p>
<p>ADad</p>
<p>Sure, ultimately it IS his decision. I’ve never said that I would decide for him, but his decision will bring about certain events. Not all to his liking. As I said before. I am ONLY headstrong on this ONE career. And that is because I KNOW why he want to do this, and that reason is a lousy one. But, he can do what he wants.</p>
<p>Thank you for the reply Compmom</p>
<p>I was hoping that NOLS would keep him learning and interested in the world around him, let him see just how much potential for amazement there is. How much more there is to this world than flipping burgers. He LIKES hiking, and I stress like. He’s no outdoorsman. But he IS bright and young. I don’t know…maybe I am getting desperate. I see my wife, so worried…She is such a great mom, I’d love her to see her catch a break…see her oldest happy and thriving. I think any mis-parenting here is me…long hours, never home, always biz worries on my mind…another reason why I shudder to think he may follow in my footsteps.</p>
<p>Well, thanks so much one more time.</p>
<p>FineArtsMajorMom</p>
<p>Geez…FAM, thank you. Your words were touching. I am NOT a man my son would ever see as a hero or someone to try and live up too. I was too busy working, worrying, and complaining…I know he loves me, but respects me…I don’t know. I just wish he would LISTEN to me.</p>
<p>I know a lot of this is because of my shortcomings. The guilt is there bigtime at times.
I am just hoping to make up for it NOW, when I don’t HAVE to work all the time, when I actually have the money to do things. I think our financial struggles hurt him growing up. He saw all the other kids with more and he saw his self worth in what he had, his stuff,like a lot of other kids these days. I hope I do the right thing here. He is so fragile at this point.</p>
<p>Thank you again.</p>
<p>Gaba…</p>
<p>My H and I own a business that has had its ups and downs over the last 30 years. Two years ago, a very “up” year and our oldest son who works for us. He sounds very much like your son. These boys are sons of business men and the dynamic is nothing you can read about in a text book. They have a desire to please, yet don’t listen and have a “do it my way mentality.” They see no valve in your experience because they are surrounded by the bells and whistles of today. We made the very tough decision to cut the cord at age 26 two years ago. (This was after he dabbled in drugs, went through 2 colleges, and an occupational college which he completed but never tested for his license, got busted for stealing from a department store even though he had plenty of $$, and continued to butt heads with his father) We asked him to move out (he was drawing a salary, living rent free and had his cell phone and car paid for as part of the business) and we forced him to leave the business. So that left him with no car, no phone and no salary. But you can only pour so many resources into a person before you realize you might as well throw your money into the wind. Fast forward two years and he got that license he rejected four years ago, works in that field part time, but it is enough to pay the bills of his own apartment (no roomate), he does ride a bike from point A to B (no car) but it has allowed him to go after his dream of acting which pays zero. He acts in the community theater and he is as happy as I have always seen him. He is not in his father’s shadow and he is becoming his own person. Is this exactly what we would have wanted? No. But he is happy and we can ask for nothing more. He has not borrowed money from us at all and is completely self supporting. Had you asked me two years ago if that was possible, I would have said no. We created the monster by trying to get him see how hard his dad worked and that the fruit of his labor was 30 years in the making and that success in not born overnight. Your son does not see that because he can’t. He can’t see into your past. Cut the cord. It is so hard, but assure you, it is always for the best. Will you have guilt? Yes, but it fades and today I have zero.</p>
<p>CS</p>