High School Course Selection Strategy

Parents Forum
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<p>"Math is not her strongest skill set. She works very hard to get her good grades. She also receives some tutoring. "</p>

<p>This makes me wonder if she really is all that good at math. Why does she need tutoring? Is it so she can scrape her way up to the level of the other kids? What would she be doing if she were left on her own? It occurs to me that she have been more-or-less forced into this particular math sequence because of the design of the GT program that she was enrolled in, and in a different school she might have been in GT English/Language Arts and GT Science but regular math.</p>

<p>She may be a regular math kid, which would mean that the new school's course series will ultimately be a better fit. And, please remember that plenty of people don't do calculus until college, if then!</p>

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<p>I would not assume that private school classes are better or more rigorous than public school classes, especially GT/honors classes. The typical student who leaves public for private around here--especially to go to the Catholic high schools--is a mediocre student who needs more structure and whose parents feel is not standing out from the rest of the pack.</p>

<p>The math and science classes at the private schools in our area, parochial or not, are definitely not superior to the honors/AP classes at the good local high schools, and in some cases are distinctly inferior.</p>

<p>I can't imagine any other course of action in this situation than having your D take a placement test. Surely, even if they don't have such a test prepared, they could give her something that combines mid-term and final problems from the class in which they are planning to put her. If she knows it, she knows it. An alternative would be to show them her math papers from this year at her public school. What a huge waste of time to repeat years of math that she has already mastered! I completely agree with Classicrockerdad. If she doesn't detest math already, she will after a couple years of that!</p>

<p>If she finishes their math sequence early, she can take more courses in the humanities or sciences in her last year or two. What's wrong with that? (I'm assuming that the new school has such offerings.) BTW, many math-oriented people say that AP Stats isn't really much of a course, and that it is better to take Stats in college. YMMV, of course.</p>

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<p>I think the OP mentioned a test. I think that she feels the D would not pass such a test but is such a tenacious, steady studier that she could still do the course. Sometimes, that is the case. Sometimes not. I don't think it's a good experiment. I want my son to double up on something next year; I think he could do it and it would be a bonus for his college apps, but he is not eager to do so, and I did not push it. Just brought up as an idea. When it is a challenge of sorts, it should be the child aggressively wanting and pushing for it. I would not push this one.</p>

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<p>Whether she learned the material through innate brilliance at math or through hard work and steady application is completely immaterial at this point: if she has mastered the material, she has mastered the material. There is no reason to assume that a student who learned the material through hard work would be any more likely to fail the test than the student who breezed through the course. Repeating it will either bore her silly or punish her for applying herself.</p>

<p>If, in fact, her grasp of the material is tenuous, then that is another matter.</p>

<p>BTW, this child has been part of a gifted program for a number of years. I very much doubt that she will have to be "pushed" to double up in subjects that interest her.</p>

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<p>There is also no reason to make so many assumptions and fall in the trap of ... idle speculation. </p>

<p>This is not rocket science and the answers are at a place that is not ... College Confidential but at the prior and future schools. </p>

<p>Fwiw, there are a few elements that defy logic in this discussion. For instance, why would the **same **student be authorized to start in Algebra II at the "more advanced" school but have to start in Algebra I at the "lesser school." It is obvious that the "more advanced" school must have lower entry standards.</p>

<p>Makes little sense.</p>

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<p>I am very grateful for all of the intelligent and passionate responses. I truly welcome all of the feedback. While there are a lot of dissenting opinions, the discussion definitely helps crystallize our thinking.</p>

<p>There were a few points that I feel require further response for the sake of clarity.</p>

<p>"why would the same student be authorized to start in Algebra II at the "more advanced" school but have to start in Algebra I at the "lesser school." It is obvious that the "more advanced" school must have lower entry standards."</p>

<p>I wouldn't characterize the private school as necessarily academically superior. However it most definitely offers the most positive and wholesome environment.</p>

<p>"This makes me wonder if she really is all that good at math. Why does she need tutoring? Is it so she can scrape her way up to the level of the other kids? What would she be doing if she were left on her own?"</p>

<p>My daughter is a GATE student pulling "A's" in math. We would describe her as a very smart girl who takes pride in her school work and does what is necessary to achieve. However, she is exceptionally creative and already a masterful wordsmith.</p>

<p>" I am very surprised that a middle school geometry class would be good enough to cut the mustard at high school."</p>

<p>Her geometry book this year is the same book used at the public high school. Her Geometry tutor's daughter is a grade ahead of her and taking high school geometry using the same book. My daughter's class is actually ahead of the high school class.</p>

<p>"The progression suggested by the private school did not include Algebra 2"</p>

<p>I think I misstated the progression at the private school. Alg 1, Geometry, Alg 2, Calculus</p>

<p>"I think the OP mentioned a test. I think that she feels the D would not pass such a test but is such a tenacious, steady studier that she could still do the course. Sometimes, that is the case. Sometimes not. I don't think it's a good experiment."</p>

<p>I think it is darn hard to test out of two years worth of courses even when you received top grades in them previously. She is tenacious however and that is maybe what we need to try to do. </p>

<p>My question was really about what path would be best suited to getting our daughter into a top college? We don't want to make a bad choice. To that end, what is most important to college admissions evaluators? Is there anything about retaking these courses that could hurt her in the eyes of same?</p>

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<p>I would reiterate that the biggest drawbacks imo of retaking courses are the lost opportunity for intellectual growth, for personal development, as well as the personal humiliation of having to sit through two entire years of material that she has already aced. These drawbacks can imo have an effect on the entire application "package" that she presents to colleges, whether or not the colleges literally find out about the specific courses she took in middle school.</p>

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<p>My kids are not top students, Guts, and two passed the tests, two did not. One failed it by such a small margin that he was given the opportunity to take the more advanced course which he did, which was a mistake. Of the two who passed the tests, one breezed through the advanced course, one is now struggling and he is an excellent, hard working student who is not used to the fast pace of this course. The one who failed the test and retook the course, got top grades, and was recommended to skipping the next math course in the sequence, going directly into Calc form Alg2/trig. It was not an AP calc couse so it really had a lot of precalc in there and did not presume that the student would skip Calc 1 in college. He went from that course to the AP Calc exam (without the AP Course) and got a 3 on the exam. That is my experience with the placement tests.</p>

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<p>Imo do find out whether each school offers BC (two college semesters) or AB Calculus (one college semester).</p>

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<p>
[quote]
My question was really about what path would be best suited to getting our daughter into a top college?

[/quote]

GutsNGlory, the progression in the private school sounds very much like the one at my d's public school, which has excellent success every year in getting kids into top schools (in my d's year, 2 Harvard, 3 Yale, 1 Brown, 4 Dartmouth, etc.) </p>

<p>D's progression was Alg I (8th grade), Geometry (9), Alg II (10), Trig/Pre-calc (11), and Calc (12). So my question is - where is Trig/Pre-calc in the private school? Is that part of the Alg II curriculum? If so, then the private school progression would be, IMO, sufficient to allow her to apply to top colleges.</p>

<p>And for a kid who has to plug away at math, my question would revolve around the speed at which the upper classes progress. If she were to skip Alg I and Geometry at the new school, how quickly does Alg 2 go? Is it slow enough that she will have the time to plug away and learn the material, or will the class assume that everyone's "got it" and move ahead, leaving her in the dust? (That was the problem for my non-math d; she could do it but not fast enough to keep up with the honors class.)</p>

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<p>
[quote]
My question was really about what path would be best suited to getting our daughter into a top college? We don't want to make a bad choice. To that end, what is most important to college admissions evaluators? Is there anything about retaking these courses that could hurt her in the eyes of same?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>G&G, allow me to repeat an earlier comment: you need to go beyond the labels placed on the "progression." Further, you also need to look beyond what is important for colleges (as in how they look at the programs.) It is much more important to know how your choices will help your child .. in college. Fwiw, colleges will expect a student to do well in classes that ARE offered to him or her. Students are accepted at prestigious schools from schools that offer ... basic math programs. Hundred of thousands are rejected from schools that offer dozens of math programs that all carry pretentious names. </p>

<p>For this reason, I'll repeat that the most important class is Pre-Calculus (or Algebra II as some schools name it.) No matter how many people insist that the math taught in HS (including AP classes) is equivalent to the math taught at the type of schools you listed as potential school, this will hardly be the case. Rushing through a HS program without a very solid foundation will end up costing your child. </p>

<p>Of course, there is ABSOLUTELY no way to know how A high school in the US prepares A student for A college, as all As are extremely variable.</p>

<p>However, middle schools pretending to teach HS classes with the required depth and breadth as well as high schools pretending to cover colllege math are simply bad propositions. There is a reason why the number of needed remedial classes in college is at an all-time high.</p>

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<p>G&G, I'm still confused about the math progression at your daughter's school. The usual course lineup is Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II, Trig/Math Analysis (often referred to as pre-calculus), and then Calculus and/or Statistics (or even Linear Algebra and differential equations, in tippy-top cases) if there's still time. That is, four years of high school work prior to starting Calculus. I've seen some students compress the Trig/Math Analysis down to a single semester or a summer course, but I'm not aware of the same sort of compression for the other classes. How does your daughter's school map the three years of Algebra I, Geometry, and Algebra II onto that standard four year progression?</p>

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<p>I'm no expert. However, I have seen through my children how 3 private schools, all of which consider themselves academically superior, handle math placement. Some things that may be relevant:</p>

<p>1) All three use placement exams ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY to determine math placement. My daughter transferred after 10th grade from a stronger to a not-quite-as strong school (we moved). She had 2 years worth of excellent grades, detailed teacher comments, and 10th grade PSAT scores -- they still insisted on a placement exam. I think you should definitely go with having a placement exam if it is offered. I'm suspicious that the school doesn't insist on it.</p>

<p>2) All three have at least 2 levels of any one course, and one (the best one, academically speaking) has 3 levels, as in, Geometry, Honors Geometry, Enriched Geometry. </p>

<p>3) The exact contents of 'Pre-Calc' are like the recipe for mystery meat. Depends on the teacher, book, school, etc. One of my kids did 'pre-calc' as a self-study concurrently with Alg. II, w/a weekly 20-min mtng with his Alg. II teacher. Worked for him. (As in, he got a 5 on AP Calc AB, got an A in the class, got A's the following year in 'Multivariable Calculus' and was admitted to excellent and selective math/science schools.)</p>

<p>4) For my kids, pushing (where necessary) to get into the highest math levels possible was the right thing to do. They worked up to expectations and classmates' levels, and were very happy with their successes. The one time we insisted that 9th grade (therefore, new to the school) D (who did not see herself as talented in math) take regular Geometry instead of Honors, she went on to ace the class and was invited into the honors track for 10th grade. She still holds that decision against us and thinks it proves that we think she's dumb. Kids, ya gotta love 'em, cause nobody else would put up with their crap.</p>

<p>5) In our family, we are very strong proponents of high-school kids learning as much math as they possibly can, <em>especially</em> if they don't think they'll go on to do math/science in college. a) you never know - your interests may change and then you'll be sorry you don't have the basics down since math/science is so hierarchically structured. b) our culture excels at producing educated people who think they understand all about human nature, policy issues, good decision-making, etc. but are essentially innumerate. As in, can't tell you what 20% of 100 is. There's something very wrong with that, and I'm doing my best to fix this problem, starting with encouraging all my kids to do as much math as they can in high school, regardless of talents and future plans. I didn't want to write a long post (oops) but I hope you will reconsider strategizing about your daughter's strengths/weaknesses and 12-th grade schedule, etc. and just go for the best math sequence that she can succeed in with hard work.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>xiggi, in my S's junior high, a class of 8th grade honors algebra students were taught by a high school teacher using a high school text. Near the end of the year, covered some material normally addressed in Algebra II.(The other 8th grade algebra students had jr high teachers, and used a different text.) The fact that the two schools were contiguous allowed for such flexibility. I can assure you that the same kids are having no trouble with math in their senior year AP Calculus BC course, and I very much doubt that they will have trouble with math in college. The other, purely jr high, algebra classes had in the past resulted in some kids having to repeat algebra in 9th grade, or not having the math necessary to succeed in the honors section of the freshman science course. Hence the "experiment" with my S's class, an initial step in an ongoing effort to upgrade the math/science program and get more kids into calculus and AP science. Whatever they've done since, it seems to have worked. A number of kids are now progressing directly from freshman science to the three APs: Chem, Bio, and Physics.</p>

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<p>The OP wrote:</p>

<p><<even though="" the="" local="" public="" high="" school="" is="" considered="" to="" have="" a="" strong="" academic="" reputation="" and="" offers="" large="" variety="" of="" advanced="" placement="" courses.="" we="" feel="" that="" overall="" environment="" far="" more="" positive="" wholesome="" at="" small="" private="" school.="" also="" think="" she="" will="" enjoy="" richer="" tapestry="" experiences="" smaller="" where="" activities="" are="" less="" impacted.="">></even></p>

<p>I don't understand what you meant by the last two sentences.</p>

<p>You know, I've been thinking about this, and I wonder whether this small private school is going to be a satisfying experience for your D. I believe that somewhere upthread you said that their math sequence is aimed at compensating for the poor quality of their feeder schools? Are all of their other classes also going to be plodding and highly structured? Is this the type of education that will fire the mind of a gifted child? From what you say, so far they don't show any signs of wanting to meet her needs. </p>

<p>"Wholesome" it may be. Intellectually satisfying is another thing.</p>

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<p>xiggi, I don't know what school system you are coming from, but I can assure you in our school system middle school kids taking high school math courses, cover the same material as high school students, learn it better than high school students (based on their Regents exam scores) and continue to excel in math all through high school. (Fives on the BC Calculus exam as juniors.) It's also been my personal experience, that math may well be better taught in public schools than private schools.</p>

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<p>Same here, mathmom (suburban New Jersey).</p>

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<p>WOW!!! You make this sound as if it were the norm, but this sounds like a FABULOUS math experience.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
It's also been my personal experience, that math may well be better taught in public schools than private schools.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't understand the insistence to make a point that is entirely irrelevant. </p>

<p>This is not a debate about the performance of public high schools versus private high schools. A debate that does not make any sense because private schools and public schools hardly form well defined monolithic groups. Are we comparing Stuyvesant with Andover or the middle of nowhere Waxahachie High with the inner-city Christ the King? In addition, it it also difficult to know how well classes are taught WITHIN the same school. You may want to read a few columns of Sol Stern (or read his book Breaking Free) to appreciate the impact of teachers transfers *using seniority) that lands a 75 year incompetent teacher at a school that is arguably the best math and science public high school in the country. So, isn't the issue of how well a class is taught at Stuyvesant related to the .. luck of drawing the great teachers such as the Hungarian wiz professor who was almost sent packing for his lack of "credentials."</p>

<p>So, is one anecdote more powerful than another? </p>

<p>
[quote]
xiggi, I don't know what school system you are coming from, but I can assure you in our school system middle school kids taking high school math courses, cover the same material as high school students, learn it better than high school students (based on their Regents exam scores) and continue to excel in math all through high school. (Fives on the BC Calculus exam as juniors.)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>For the record, the school system I attended in middle school is in Dallas, Texas. I'd be happy to provide you additional insights as to the comparative performance of the private school I attended and the local public schools. Despite Dallas being able to boast some of the best magnets (being number 1 in the country several times,) I believe that several posters in this forum would be happy to share why they sent their children to schools such as St Mark's, Hockaday, or Greenhill as opposed to Highland Park HS or Townview Magnet HS. </p>

<p>But again, none of this is relevant to the question of the OP, because the only thing that matters is the instruction **his **child received in middle school and where her level places her in two different types of high school.</p>

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<p>FWIW, my anecdotal, personal experience with accelerated math classes is in line with ADad and mathmom. That's clearly not the case in each and every school district, but it does happen. If we can't make a blanket statement that all advanced math programs are of stellar character, neither can we make a statement that all middle school algebra and geometry classes are not teaching the material covered in a high school class. I do know that graduates from D1's school do go straight into second-year calculus at universities. Since these students are working towards engineering or other technical degrees, they've clearly learned enough at middle and high school level to be able to cope. </p>

<p>G&G, if you're still reading, another thought: borrow copies of the books your daughter used in her previous math classes, and go meet with the math department head of the new school with the books in hand. Going over the specific curriculum previously covered may be useful to both you and the new school in figuring out appropriate placement.</p>