High School Course Selection Strategy

Parents Forum
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<p>GutsNGlory:</p>

<p>From my perspective, I have a junior S and sophomore D, it would seem important to keep moving her forward with her math education. The college admissions staff have all stated they want to see the students challenge themselves in HS. It seems, if you are looking to top colleges, she would go from being at competing students’ level or slightly ahead to being behind most top students in the area of math.</p>

<p>Another consideration, especially if she is pushing back on going to the private school, is by not challenging her, she may develop some poor work habits and be able to get away with it. We definitely saw this occur with our son when we moved from an area that had a GT school to an area that did not during his elementary school years. I imagine we are still dealing with the effects of poor work habits, although he is currently completing AP Calculus BC.</p>

<p>I believe the goal should be to provide our students a challenging education. Having someone repeat classes without specific reasons (i.e. class was poorly taught, student performed poorly, etc.) does not serve that purpose. We shouldn’t have them take classes in order to get another “A” or so that the schedule will be easier. </p>

<p>I would be meeting with the private school now to ensure that they are also focused on delivering the best education for your D and that they are flexible in dealing with advanced students.</p>

42

<p>
[quote]
Going over the specific curriculum previously covered may be useful to both you and the new school in figuring out appropriate placement.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Interesting. </p>

<p>Wasn't I arguing that the only thaing that mattered was MS curriculum versus projected curriculum in 11th grade in my post number 18 -- before all this non-sense about private versus public education started?</p>

43

<p>I know that there are lots of factors to consider, like the environment and the availability of extracurriculars, but I share Consolation's concerns. Was your child in a full-day gifted program in middle school? If she was, and is going to be leaving that environment for a parochial school that doesn't have many gifted students, I would worry that there may be a huge drop in the overall intellectual environment. That will include English classes. My daughter had to move from an all-day gifted program to a school that didn't have one at all in late elementary school. (We live on the east coast.) In her gifted classes, everyone was bright and articulate and eager to participate. In the school without a gifted program, my daughter was often the only student raising her hand. The vocab she used on a daily basis made her seem weird to classmates... I felt sorry for her, and would never have taken her out of the gifted program if my husband's transfer had not required it. On the bright side, my daughter did go on to impress her teachers and get into an Ivy. I just think her high school years could have been more satisfying...</p>

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<p>What's a "wholesome" high school environment? </p>

<p>As someone else has posted, the point of high school is to get an education. THAT is the primary goal. Getting into college is not. Getting into college can be the by-product of having gotten an education in high school, but it should not be the goal of high school.</p>

<p>Which course of action aligns with that primary goal, repeating two years of math already completed, or learning new material?</p>

<p>I think a placement test is a great idea. I hope you insist the private school give her one.</p>

45

<p>Wow. This is a really popular thread! </p>

<p>I think the standard track for most of the top 10% straight-A (but not necessarily math genius) students is:</p>

<p>8: Alg 1
9: Geom
10: Alg 2
11: Precalc (Trig in 10 or 11 or both)
12: AP Calculus (BC or AB).</p>

<p>Oh and yeah, they would be all "honors" classes.</p>

46

<p>The track for the top 10% students my kid's middle school is:
6: Intro to Algebra
7: Algebra 1
8: Geometry</p>

<p>Some stronger kids follow this track (about 4 or 5 kids):
6: Algebra 1
7: Geometry
8: Algebra 2</p>

<p>This school is similar to the school that mgoat mentioned.</p>

47

<p>I might have missed this, but if you haven't done it already, it might be good to get your hands on the instructional materials used in the private school classes, and also to get ahold of a couple of tests from past years, to see if these classes, although they have the same name, are really the same as the courses your daughter has already taken. If they involve a higher level of material, or have higher expectations for students to do well in their testing, then you might be doing your daughter a disservice in having her take the next class in the private school sequence with students who are both older and have better preparation. If, on the other hand, you are really looking at repeating two years of identical math, you might want to sit down with the curriculum person at the private school and pin down their educational rationale for having your daughter repeat. Exactly how do they think it would benefit her? Are they willing to test her to determine her knowledge and skill level in math, and to place her accordingly? </p>

<p>In terms of college admission, I think that finding the best educational fit for your daughter is the best course of action. Colleges do talk about the student taking the most advanced classes available, but in our kids' hs, a rigorous private prep, there is no expectation that kids aiming for (and being accepted by) top colleges will have progressed beyond the easier AP Calc in senior year, although there are certainly math courses beyond this level. There are also non-math/sci kids with excellent admissions results who never take AP Calc, but go for Stats, which requires a lower level of math preparation.</p>

<p>Also, it could be helpful to find some parents of older children who have switched from your daughter's gifted program to area private schools to see how they have handled the math situation. There could be some useful insight to be gained from people who have had to cope with this in past years.</p>

48

<p>Thank you everybody!!</p>

<p>We have scheduled a follow up meeting with the guidance counselor at the prep school. One of the things we have discovered that gives us cause for concern about our daughter being forced to retake courses that she already excelled in, is the fact that those MS courses will appear in her college application. They in fact DO count as two of her minimum four years of "high school math". We worry that as has been stated here in our discussion, that it will be potentially damaging to have her record reflect her taking Alg 1 and Geometry twice.</p>

<p>We met with friends whose oldest daughter (2 years older than ours) is a very similar student and attended the same MS. She is the 3rd ranked student in her class academically at the large public school. She took Alg 1 and Geometry in middle school. She took Alg 2 as a Freshman and Pre Calculus as a sophomore. She did not have to take any further math to satisfy minimum college entrance requirements. However, she is going to take AP calculus next year as a Junior and then be done. She will not take any math as a Senior.</p>

<p>As far as other issues raised in the thread above goes, I will simply explain that large school's extra curricular activities are impacted by the sheer number of kids in school. Whether it be choir, drama, or sports, there are too many kids. Lastly, the prep school works on an honors system where there are no locks on lockers and they have not had a single theft in over 5 years. Furthermore, I have witnessed the prep school kids passing in the halls between classes and they are polite to one another and appear happy and friendly with each other. I cannot say the same for the large public school on either count. We have attended family events for the prep school and the level and quality of parent support is impressive. Lastly, the prep school offers a media program that is growing to such stature that it rivals many college film schools. This is an area of particular attraction.</p>

<p>Again Thank You for all of your feedback!!</p>

49

<p>We learned the hard way that private does not always equal better. Following educational testing done at the request of S1's kindergarten principal, we looked at some well-regarded private schools in our area. They wanted to hold him back a year solely because of his birthday -- they used a cutoff six months earlier than the public school. The privates would not entertain maintaining his current grade placement, much less subject acceleration, asserting that because they could select who they admitted, they did not need to make special accommodations for advanced work. </p>

<p>We hightailed it to the public system which offered some excellent options once he got to 4th grade. S1 was given significant subject acceleration without us having to advocate for it. He was able to do things the privates never could have accommodated.</p>

<p>All that said...S2 got to Alg II and struggled. He took Alg I in 7th, Geometry in 8th (though not in a math-intensive program) and leans towards humanities. The standard honors Alg and Geom courses did not serve him well. He took pre-IB math studies this year (pre-calc minus two units), which some on this list will ballyhoo, but it was just the right pace for S2 to consolidate his math skills, regain some confidence, and did not suck up so much of his time that other grades sufffered. He will take Calc AB junior year and AP Stat senior year, and that should be sufficiently rigorous (please note sarcasm!) for colleges while still enabling him to devote the time and passion he wants to the classes he truly loves. If he gets a wild idea and decides he wants to take Calc BC senior year instead, that too is an option.</p>

<p>Does this private school offer extraordinary opportunities in the humanities and languages? How is their college placement vs. the public schools? Does the private school know about TASP (which, for a student who is seriously interested in the humanities, might be a consideration)? Does the public offer links to a local college/university that can supplement your D's interests/provide research or mentoring opportunities? I am leery of schools that are lockstep and rigid in terms of placement and attitude that "we know best." If it were me, I'd be asking LOTS of questions about curriculum, placement testing, etc. </p>

<p>I would also pay attention to the underlying messages your D is sending, since you indicate she is not entirely happy about this proposed school change. If she's not happy and confident, the best in the school in the world won't do much for her. She needs to be a integral part of this decision -- this is the beginning of many important choices SHE will need to make as she prepares for college. </p>

<p>Like others, I don't care for college "strategy" other than letting students pursue his/her interests at the level they wish, taking the level of coursework that their intended colleges wish to see, and keeping options open should those interests change. The message we gave to our kids is to work so that you preserve your options for the future. </p>

<p>S1 was totally, utterly math and CS until a HS social studies teacher lit a fire under his tail halfway through freshman year. Four years later, he is still going to be a math/CS major, but he chose his college in significant part based on the social science/humanities offerings. Who wouldda thunkit?</p>

50

<p>G&G, one final thing, for what it's worth: our state university system asks for four years of high school math, but will not count high school level courses taken prior to 9th grade towards that four-year requirement. D1's middle school counselor, the math department head for the school, and the school's college counselor (that school runs from elementary school through 12th grade) all cautioned us prior to approving D1 starting algebra in 7th that D1 would need to be enrolled in math courses through 12th. Since D1 transferred to a different school in 9th grade, I doubt that the coursework will show up on her transcript, anyway.</p>

<p>It's possible the counseling staff was wrong. And this kind of issue may have no effect on the schools that your daughter will consider for college, but just thought you'd like to know, all the same.</p>

51

<p>When students apply to colleges,their GC's send letters describing the high school's curriculum, difficulty of courses, etc. If your daughter does end up taking two courses with the same name again, the counselor can simply write a note explaining that she was adhering to the school's required curriculum taking the highest level of math that is offered in each of those two years, and that their policy precluded her from taking higher level math courses given her grade in school. But then again, why should courses taken before 9th grade appear on her transcript at all? (Some universities won't even look at 9th grade courses.) I want to reiterate that the issue here should not be how this looks to colleges -- the GC should be able to fix any appearance that your D was repeating work on a remedial basis -- but what is educationally best for your daughter. Hopefully, the GC at the private school will be able to explain why the private school math courses are really at a higher level and will give your daughter a more comprehensive preparation for the school's upper level math courses, or, if the courses really are the same, will be willing to find an alternate class for your daughter in the school or allow her to pursue math through an accredited online program for advanced students, such as the very reputable progam for gifted high school students run by Stanford University.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
As far as other issues raised in the thread above goes, I will simply explain that large school's extra curricular activities are impacted by the sheer number of kids in school. Whether it be choir, drama, or sports, there are too many kids.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>When you say "too many kids," do you mean that the public high school orchestra has too many kids in it? The choir has too many kids in it? The swim team has too many kids on it? Is there only one choir? (My son's large public high school has four choirs, five orchestras, and six band/wind ensembles, and thirty-four sports teams. Also a flag squad, dance teams for boys and girls, etc. and so on.)</p>

<p>In my experience, large high schools offer many more extracurriculars than small schools do. Many more classes, too, which is why I got to take Dramatic Literature, Genetics, Linguistics, and Microbiology in the large public high school I went to (my small private boarding school didn't offer such classes), and which is why the large public high school my son attends offers Criminal Justice, Practical Law, Aerospace Engineering, Astronomy, Biochemistry, and six different languages in addition to sign language and all the typical high school classes. And lots more, too -- drawing, photography, recording production, television production, sculpture, yadda yadda yadda.</p>

<p>My son, like your daughter, took geometry in 8th grade. (He essentially skipped algebra 1.) He's taking Algebra II/Trig now, and will take pre-calculus as a sophomore. Math options at his school go through differential equations and calculus 3, both of these university courses taught at the high school. </p>

<p>He's required to take math all four years of high school, regardless of what he took in middle school. The private school you are looking at might require four years of math as well; my private high school did.</p>

<p>I find it of interest that you appear more concerned about what courses will appear on your D's HS transcript than you are about how she spends her time at HS. </p>

<p>~~~</p>

<p>For those of you asking/posting about math sequences, the track S is on is 9th grade, Algebra II/Trig; 10th grade, pre-calc; 11th grade, AP Calc; 12th grade, various options, including calc 3 and diff equations.</p>

<p>There are other tracks; starting with 9th grade, they include:
Algebra I - Geometry - Algebra II - Trig
Algebra II - Trig - Pre-calc - Calc</p>

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<p>Nester:</p>

<p>
[quote]
But then again, why should courses taken before 9th grade appear on her transcript at all?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Because certain courses are high school courses, regardless of where the kid took them. S's high school transcript shows three high school credits on it, two classes he took in middle school (Latin I and Geometry), and one course he didn't even take, but is required for HS graduation (Algebra I*). The courses, credits, and grades all appear on his high school transcript.</p>

<ul>
<li>this made me nervous, so, as a backup, I had him go through the EPGY algebra I course last summer -- all he had to do to complete the course was take all the chapter tests, the midterm, and the final -- so if the school system comes back to say, "Oh, he never took algebra I; he can't graduate!," I can whip out the EGPY transcript and say, "Well, he did, actually -- here!"</li>
</ul>

54

<p>It's not unusual for high school courses taken in middle school to appear on the transcript. Both the Algebra 1 and biology course as well as any Regents exam scores that many 8th graders take in our system appear on the high school transcript and are also figured into the GPA. I do think the requirement of taking four years of math in high school is a dumb one. If for some reason a student finishes calculus before their senior year, I see no reason that they should be forced to do more math if they don't want to.</p>

55

<p>Our school system includes HS math and FL courses taken in MS on the transcript and includes them in the GPA. The kids don't have to take more than four years of math (including MS), but as a practical matter, most who are looking at flagship schools or privates go through Calc or Stat if they started Alg in MS. Some go beyond that, depending on what's available and their other interests.</p>