Honors classes vs Music?

College Majors Music Major
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<p>The thing about honors classes in small schools, at least in our local high school (which is not a high quality school) is that there is a huge gap between the content (and, I hate to say it, motivation level, much as I love some of those kids) in the non-honors classes versus honors classes. So in our school, a large percentage of kids take honors. Not to get into “top” schools, but to be able to endure high school itself.</p>

<p>For admissions purposes with conservatories that are not dependent on admission to an affiliated university, academics are not that important. As you heard, it is all about the audition. If there is a possibility of going to a university music school or an academic college or university, academics may matter more, but often dedication to music is respected and sacrifices made to academics in order to pursue music are often understood.</p>

<p>Frankly, I don’t think honors classes would be essential, for future music studies, but if teh daughter is academically inclined, has academic interests and enjoys learning in school, then it is a case of what helps her enjoy the present, NOT what helps her get in in four years.</p>

<p>I recently spoke with one prize winning professional violist who didn’t go to school at all. My dancer daughter skipped senior year (GED) but when she applied to colleges after a year dancing, she got into her chosen colleges. There are many examples of schools understanding “outliers” and students who have focused interests that make their high school experiences a little different.</p>

<p>Music classes at the school may or may not help with her musical pursuits, but it is certain that if she really wants to do music, she will need something else.</p>

<p>Of course, a 14 year-old has many changes ahead, and may not even want to do music in a couple of years. It is always helpful for a student to continue to do whatever is most inspiring and motivating in order to get through adolescence with this kind of discipline intact. The social experience in school ensembles might be a factor, or might not, and the experience of working with talented peers outside of school on the weekends is almost always a good thing.</p>

<p>I do think the school has made it impossible for other students, who may not pursue music seriously outside of school, to take honors, and for kids in honors to do music, and that is a sad state of affairs regardless of what the original poster’s daughter decides. I hope someone raised the issue sometime for the majority of students who are missing out with that scheduling arrangement!</p>

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<p>Redeye-</p>

<p>What you are describing is one of the fundamental things facing students serious about music, that is the inherent conflict between the hours required for music study and the time needed to be spent with school work. While there are some kids who can do both at a really high level and achieve, inevitably there are tradeoffs. For the serious music student, it can mean bypassing the mania for AP classes and the like, backing off on that side while pursuing music (or homeschooling, as my son and many music students do). Others facing this dilemma sacrifice the music side, do well academically and slip musically. It is hard, and especially now when there increasingly is this idea (which is ridiculous, but prevalent) that if you don’t get on the right track in high school, well,you are dooming yourself, so for example, parents are afraid to let their kids concentrate on music and pull back a bit from the academic rat race, because then ‘they won’t get into a good college’ (more on that in a bit). Here are some of my thoughts:</p>

<p>-I do agree with others, that as a freshman being in one of the ensembles or whatever in the music program is worth it. Not necessarily musically (high school music programs, to be blunt, are generally not that high level, I was part of them, and I was one of the reasons why they weren’t high level:). However, as a social thing, a way to get to know kids, it is a great experience, plus IME ‘band kids’ tend to be a very eclectic bunch, not a very one size fits alll group (we had kids who were athletes, gearheads, ‘artsy’, you name it, easy to find someone to relate to:). If it means slipping an honors class, probably worth it.</p>

<p>-I can’t speak for your district, but do they require honors level classes to take AP classes? if not, then they could take the regular section and then take AP…</p>

<p>-As Stacjip pointed out, kids who focus on music often change their minds at college time and go to an academic school, and from what I have seen if they ‘pull back’ from the academic rat race a bit, it won’t hurt them at the college level. Based on my observations and talking to other parents, kids who do music like that, who may not take all the AP’s and honor’s classes, who otherwise do well academically, SAT’s and so forth, end up doing well in admissions nonetheless. I suspect it is because the college knows what musical kids go through, and also realize that the discipline and such music kids have to have to achieve any kind of level makes a big difference in the classroom, too…plus they often want musical kids not majoring in music to play in college orchestras and such, which might be a plus. So if she focuses on music, then decides to do academics, as long as she has done well academically she will prob be fine if she decides not to major in music…</p>

<p>-I agree about finding as much outside music experience as possible, among other things, it is likely she will be with kids playing at a higher level their instrument, and that is a really good thing. I realize you live upstate and that means the opportunities are limited, but I encourage you to find those kind of things. Music parents go crazy, I am fortunate we live in the NYC metro area so have a lot of opportunities available, but parents literally drive hours and hours to get kids to high level programs, I have known parents who drove their kids 10 hours on a sat to get them to a program, or even fly in…I think that is extreme, especially since they had good alternatives within a couple of hours of their house, but it is indicative about trying to find opportunities and the importance I think. </p>

<p>There are also the summer programs, like Tanglewood/BUTI and so forth, they are valuable (the tanglewood orchestra program is first rate, and the ensemble and chamber programs are supposed to be good, too). These are expensive, but they do offer scholarships and such, might be worth checking out. </p>

<p>The key is in the private teacher, that is the most important thing of all. If she has a strong teacher, then that will go a long way to helping her. </p>

<p>-I wouldn’t sweat over music theory in school, if she can take it, great, but if she can’t it isn’t like that is the end of the world. As has been talked about on here a lot, taking AP music theory, other then gaining knowledge in theory, isn’t going to make a big difference (other then having music theory knowledge is helpful, of course, it is why students are forced to take it:). They are unlikely to give you credit for it in a music program and when you get admitted to music schools they don’t assume you have theory. Taking the AP might place someone into a higher level theory class, but not entirely certain that is a good thing necessarily (music theory is not entirely standard, every program has its own way of teaching, the order of concepts, terminology, and so forth…). She could probably study music theory outside school, there are online resources, books, etc where she could self study. </p>

<p>My take? Take a deep breath and follow your gut (guided by suggestions of others, you have to weigh what works for you) and you will probably be okay whatever path she ends up on, there are no tragic mistakes at this point. Even with strings and piano (where you almost have to dedicate to music earlier then high school to make it at any kind of level, it is totally insane) there are many paths if that doesn’t work out, and with winds it is a bit of a different world (merely insane, instead of totally insane <em>lol</em>).</p>

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<p>Compmom-
Nicely put, I agree with what you wrote. There is a downside to school music programs (and please, this is not a blanket statement that all programs are like this), that when school music programs get talented students it is common for the music directors to ‘glom onto’ them, and want them to do all kinds of things and may not be so understanding when the kid has conflicts and such (been there, done that). I think that school music programs can have merit, but it is something to think about as well.</p>

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<p>Thanks, that was a lot of info! I think my daughter is a little confused right now: what is best, what is necessary, what the future holds. The only thing that’s a constant is music, and I feel she feels that is being taken away. Only about 25/175 kids in her grade are even asked to take honors, it’s not a choice if you fall below a certain gpa. You can even have a 95 average but if 25 kids have a 96 or above, you’re out. Which I find ridiculous, and have made it known. I think she almost feels like she has to take all honors because she was “one of the lucky few”. I talked to another girls mom and her daughter chose non-honors courses because she wants to take the many music and theater courses
offered. I agree that all school music programs aren’t that great, but in the past few years we’ve sent kids to Belmont, Potsdam, Ithaca, Fredonia, NEC and USC for Music, some without any private lessons which spoke well for out program. One was waiting on Julliard but we lost touch. My daughter knows a lot of kids in the music program because in 6th grade she was playing in the 6th, 7th and 8th grade (3 different) bands. Band here is an actual course so she took her grade level that fit into her schedule and learned the rest of the music on her own. She has an excellent private teacher about 20 miles away which isn’t to bad. I will look into opportunities in Rochester but winter driving is tough, it’s about an
hour and a half away. As a whole, the school’s wind ensemble has done well in national competitions and we were NYS drumline champs two years running and Field band champs and runner up past two years. So while we definately will look for outside opportunities, it’s like there is a solid program built into the school day that we have to ignore, and it’s driving
DD and I crazy!</p>

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<p>Isn’t EVERYONE confused at 14?</p>

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<p>I’m confused at… We’ll just say not 14!</p>

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<p>This is obviously a much better school than the one my kids went to, both academically and musically. And yet it has a schedule that pits honors classes and music against each other. Why hasn’t anyone raised a stink about this?</p>

<p>p.s. with a school music program that leads to those kinds of schools, I would consider music over AP’s, at least to some degree; guidance would have to write a note to accompany the transcript explaining the situation though</p>

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<p>You need to remind your daughter that this is HER life, not the guidance counselor’s or the teacher’s life. It is wonderful that she was invited to take these high level classes. But it sounds like there are plenty of very bright kids who were not invited to take them, which means that the regular classes might not be painfully boring. But even if they are, what is wrong with being bored or having school work be a bit easy. Every year my son’s teachers put him in AP/Honors math. Every year we crossed it off and put him in the next level down. He was at times painfully bored. Math comes easily to him. But at the same time by not being in a super rigorous class (our AP/Honors math classes are filled with math prodigies and math team champions) my son was able to learn the material with minimum stress. And thank goodness it was easy because last year he basically missed almost all of the 3rd and 4th quarter due to auditions, college visits and festivals. It is a miracle he even passed the course.</p>

<p>Your daughter needs to follow her heart and do what she thinks is best. But remember, good music experiences are invaluable for a young musician. High School Academics or learning AP anything is trivial and can be done in or out of the classroom.</p>

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<p>The hard part about music is that decisions need to be made at a young age, before a kid is really ready developmentally to make those decisions. In other words, music demands dedication to a future goal, at an age when kids are not ready to really feel that long-term commitment. So it falls on parents, to some extent, for a young teen. It is natural to try to keep all options open, but for a student musician, it is also important to focus on developing talent, and these two priorities can conflict!</p>

<p>I do wonder if outside music, and online or cc classes, could be combined to somehow get around some of the school scheduling issues. And I hope the school will reconsider its ways: our school hired a consultant to help with scheduling this year, maybe your school could do that!</p>

<p>To add to StacJip’s nice post. My daughter, the one who dropped back a year and a level of math in order to take music theory, said she learned to love math that year. She ended up being a class leader in math, helping others, and the pace was slow enough so she could fully absorb math for the first time. It was a great experience. After that year, she went on to conservatory theory classes on Saturdays for her last two years of high school, and continued to enjoy math! Her college/conservatory admissions were not at all affected, either.</p>

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<p>Taking an online course is a good recommendation. Many counties now have some courses online, and others allow students to take one or two courses from virtual schools online. My daughter took a history course online this year, because she was missing too many classes to do well in all of them (concerto competitions and other music endeavors). So she maintained a regular high school course load, except that one of her courses was online. It made things work for her.</p>

<p>There are online schools, many of them, where your daughter could sign up for one course and transfer the credit to her high school. Keystone, one in Nebraska, BYU online, come to mind.</p>

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<p>Keystone is a little different in that it is more geared to homeschoolers, and has fewer grades.</p>

<p>We used educere.net, an umbrella organization online that manages several different programs. Virtual High School is excellent: in fact, we convinced our school to join and there are now 25 slots for kids taking online classes for free, funded by a local foundation.</p>

<p>Aventa Learning is also under educere, or used to be. I believe they now run Keystone as well.</p>

<p>Look at differences in scheduling for these programs. Virtual High School wants all work done week by week. Aventa doesn’t care when you get it done, as long as it is done by the end of the term (which works well for performers, who have busy weeks with rehearsals and shows, and down weeks).</p>

<p>There are many other programs, both under Educere and elsewhere. Community colleges and state universities and colleges also have online classes which would be honored by public schools.</p>

<p>Be aware that with some online schools, the course work is actually harder and can affect grades. An online class covers ALL the material (not like your high school history teacher who never makes it past WWI). Also, I think tests and exams have the hardest AP questions for some reason. Often a teacher will do a bit of coaching one on one by phone to make it fairer.</p>

<p>Honors classes at Virtual High School are wonderful and not too time-consuming. I know kids who were sullen in school and got inspired by VHS. Lots of interesting choices for classes. Check out the website!</p>

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<p>Just saw an ad on tv for K12 National LP Home, a free online public school. Don’t know anything about it but thought I would add it here, because the other options do cost about $400 per course.</p>

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<p>My two youngest daughters both transferred from academic magnet public schools in our city to a statewide cyber charter school (these charter schools are free to residents of Pennsylvania, where we live.) The cyber charter schools are run like public schools, and they adhere to state standards. Not available in other states-- but I do, therefore, have some experience with cyber high school that I can share. FWIW, D3 was accepted to major conservatories and is rising junior at Juilliard and D4 was accepted to most of her first choice colleges, including the only Ivy she applied to, so it is possible to do well with an all-cyber education. There are pluses and minuses. On the plus side, the asynchronous classes afford tremendous flexibility. In my daughters’ case, we found the teachers to be as attentive as they needed them to be. In most cases, they worked independently and did not request much help from the teachers, but when they did need help it was available for them. On the minus side, some courses (math-y courses, in particular) can be harder to understand without face-to-face interaction. Word-y course requiring essays seem like a more natural fit. One also needs self-discipline to get it all done. Gym is kind of a hoot. But, there is accountability, even in gym (my daughter had to wear a heart monitor to document aerobic exercise, and provide detailed logs of stretching, etc.) Both of my kids experimented with 3rd party Aventa courses (which their cyber school paid for), for classes not on the school’s regular roster. They found these courses disappointing in comparison. There was teacher turnover during the semester (several times, in the case of a Japanese class!), teachers were harder to reach, and teachers did not have the same level of commitment to class members as we saw in the courses offered by the cyber school. If my daughters had stayed in their brick-and-mortar schools they would have had to sacrifice performance and study opportunities. On the other hand, the b-and-m schools would have offered more advanced and AP courses and a higher level of student interaction. On the other hand, their college admissions did not suffer because of the cyber school choice. So, plusses and minuses. But the big plus-- incredible flexibility with schedule-- made it worthwhile in our case.</p>

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<p>I know my daughter wouldn’t commit to an entire online HS experience, but maybe a few courses. But how does that work for those of you in NY where your kids needed to take at least 3 Math, 3 Science, Social Studies and English Regents Exams? Are there specific NYS Regents courses online?</p>

<p>Also, I found out that this Honors program at my daughter’s HS school is new this year, so the complaints will start rolling in! (Only one section offered in each course, who they’re offered to, etc) Before, Regents courses were the highest offered, AP’s and courses through our local community colleges offered to juniors and seniors. Colleges knew this and knew if a kid from our school was taking Regents, it was the highest offered. Now, it will be “why didn’t they take the honors?” when it really isn’t fair because it’s only offered in one section. I found out the Music and Art departments as a whole are not happy because many of those considered “smart” are also musically and Artistically inclined and they’ve created a clash between regular academics and music and Art. Our school has always been strong in Art and especially Photography in recent years, as well as music.</p>

<p>I know a GC could explain why certain courses weren’t taken, but DD wants to take the most difficult classes like her friends, although she’s upset about music. I was told more then one section probably will be offered “when the budget is better”. Then why institute a new honors program with money so tight that causes so many problems? </p>

<p>Guidance Counselors have been calling people all week about problems in their schedules, as schedules have yet to go out. It should be an interesting Board meeting! I just happened to call early about a problem I noticed and found all this out!</p>

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<p>Why is there only one Honors class per subject? At my daughter’s school, there are generally 3 AP classes offered vs only 1 non-AP (but still honors) class per subject. Perhaps parents should request that more honors classes be offered at your school. At my daughter’s public school, there are only AP and honors classes offered in everything but math. No regular classes.</p>

<p>The reason my daughter can’t take wind ensemble next year is because the only non-honors math course is offered during the same block. My daughter doesn’t want to take the AP math course because she is focusing on doing well in music. But she is fine with that–she’s in 11th grade and she’s been in wind ensemble since 8th grade. She has plenty of ensembles and orchestras to play in, and has to choose carefully which ones she will do.</p>

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<p>Redeye, If this is a new situation with the honors program, that conlficts with music/art, then parents need to go to the School Committee or Board meeting and raise a stink. Write letters to the paper too. If you know other parents, contact them and try to organize.</p>

<p>We have a very small high school, with only one honors or AP class per subject. There are many scheduling problems. Our former principal had a gift for scheduling that was unappreciated until he left!</p>

<p>The new principal botched things so that music (chamber music, orchestra, jazz band) was held after school so that all kids would have access to it. He was going to have chamber music for just half the year, which parents protested. How could kids do a music class half the year?!</p>

<p>The way your school is setting up this conflict between academics and music/arts needs to be addressed. The only way I have ever seen something like this addressed is through some sort of public outcry, and you might be the one to start it off.</p>

<p>All it takes is maybe 10 parents at the School Board meeting. Write the Board a letter and ask to be put on the agenda. Call other parents. Call the local newsletter and let the editor know about the issue and that it will be discussed at that meeting. I cannot imagine that with a little pressure like this, the school won’t change its plans.</p>

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<p>Compmom, I intend to speak up, as well as others I’ve been talking to. This problem is a new one because the whole honors program is new and I don’t think many are aware of it yet. The kids are coming from a different school and the only reason I noticed the conflict is because I looked at the schools online hand book and it had completely changed for incoming Freshmen. I called the Guidance Office and we spoke with her Counselor, but nobody else that I know of has noticed because they still haven’t told any one about scheduling issues yet! With the school only letting 22 people into honors Earth Science, for instance, there’s going to be other issues with kids kept out. I was actually told if, and this is an exaggerated example, if 22 kids had an 8th grade Science average of 99, no other students would be let in. Now could you imagine if your child had a 98 average and was told it wasn’t good enough for honors? It’s absurd! Problem with this year is things are set in motion and it’s only these first 22-26 students that are effected, so I don’t know how many people will question it until a few years go by, and then where is my daughter in it all? </p>

<p>Woodwinds, with all due respect, if all classes are honors, how are any not honors? If what
you mean is all students take the highest level possible, that’s great. But our school is instituting a new honors program starting with incoming Freshmen and only the highest scoring 22-26 out of a class of 175 are allowed in. I don’t think it’s a very well thought out program, as there is only one section of each core course offered in honors level and you have to take them when offered, which is playing havoc with peoples schedules that take
Music, Art, and Technology. Plus, I don’t think having the highest average in Junior High dictates whether you are capable of honors classes in high school. Every year before this one, most kids took your Regents level classes and AP’s of their choice Jr, Sr and sometimes Sophomore year. Many sections were offered. Only students in Special Education took different courses. Even this year, honors and Regents students will take the same state finals. But my daughter is freaking out (her words!) that if she doesn’t take honors, she’s out of the top group of students before she even steps into the school because of her love of music. For ranking purposes it’s plus 10% added onto your honors level course grade. In a class of only 175, if your non-honors grades aren’t extremely high, you can easily get knocked out of the top 10%, so she’s nervous about her choice.</p>

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<p>What a difficult position for your daughter and you to contend with. I work in a public high school in one district and my son is a rising Junior in another district. Instrumental and vocal music have changed my son into a confident musician, who is planning to major in Jazz Studies! He is also a theater guy, "Mr. Biggley in “How to Succeed in Business…” this year. That being said, I would encourage you ( if you haven’t already!) to read the Board meeting minutes and Budget meeting minutes before you attend the next Board meeting. You will want your ducks in a row for your plea.
I work in a relatively small district and my son’s school would probably be considered small by CC standards. The budget issues are enormous! As it is, there are relatively few honors or AP classes offered. We delayed my son taking foreign language until Junior year so he could participate in both instrumental and choral classes due to scheduling conflicts. My son’s band director has led the program very well and all sections have done very well in competitions. I had huge concerns because I knew the director was completing his two year probation this past year and would be in danger of being cut. Thank goodness he wasn’t one of the 31 positions eliminated! In my district, the Middle School and High School share a band and choral director, and have for the past three years.
I hope you and your daughter find a solution that works for you. I’m sure there are other students/parents who will appreciate and support your advocating for a review and change of the current policy.</p>

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<p>redeye, to answer your question: My daughter attends one of the top ranked public schools nationally; sometimes it has been ranked #1, almost always in the top 10. Most of the students score high on the SATs, but even more come in having been taught high school-plus level English since grade school. Naturally they almost all sign up for AP classes, unless they opt to take the one non-AP course which is only honors level. There are no requirements of having had to get a 99 in a class in order to take honors or AP–everyone would regard that as silly, because as you said many students don’t really do well in school or get it until high school or later. My daughter has some scheduling issues because she DOESN’t want to take AP classes, in order to have more hours to practice. But these choices are left up to the students.</p>

<p>Students who challenge themselves in high school are better prepared for college. That’s the argument I’d make to the school board. Offer more honors classes and the students will select it themselves.</p>

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<p>There seem to be many simultaneous problems with this school, connected to the new honors program. Cutting off capable students arbitrarily, and scheduling conflicts with music, are the most obvious ones.</p>

<p>It would seem to me that the administration is being less than forthcoming and may be trying to avoid protests before the school year starts. You’d think they would have announced these changes and would have heard enough protests already by now.</p>

<p>It is tough to lead a protest when you are new to the system.</p>

<p>Basically, I think your daughter has an impossible choice, and it is not really resolvable unless the school changes. Scheduling is so complicated, and it may already be done for this coming year, so it would take something like hiring a consultant to fix it at this point.</p>

<p>As we have said before, your daughter can do music in school (excellent program, or else I would say skip it entirely and just do music outside) and/or outside of school (with some driving). She can do honors and AP work in school (missing music) or outside school w/online,or college courses or whatever to free up the schedule for in-school music.</p>

<p>So I guess I would meet with your daughter and guidance and maybe the principal to see if they will accept credits from whatever online program you want to use, or community college, or wherever else you are interested in courses, and also whether those grades will be contributing to GPA.</p>

<p>At the end of high school, you and/or your daughter, and guidance can write notes explaining that music and academics were both important and that this was the only way to resolve the conflict. Any college, top school or not, will appreciate this kind of effort in support of “passions.”</p>

<p>The one thing she should not do is choose between music and academics. I think you will have to find a way around the choice, and, of course, let as many people know about this situation so that a protest can happen, whether led by you or by others.</p>

<p>We have a similar school that has now evolved into a similar situation, with a new principal. My kids are no longer in high school, but I worked hard to get political support for the school budget to support music, and a lot of us are upset that music has actually been ousted from the school day entirely!</p>

<p>I still think this schedule at your daughter’s school reflects a similar disrespect for music as a “frill,” and it is no coincidence since there are no standardized tests for music to affect the schools’ reputation and standing!</p>