<p>Just erased a long post. Let’s answer the question asked. The most important thing is that Honors varies greatly from school to school (public or private, btw). You need to look at all sorts of factors. Hopefully our posts have shown different things to consider. The merits of the whole U as well as how the elite students go about getting the best available to them education varies. </p>
<p>I and son were lucky to be in a state with a top notch flagship and Honors Program. It was refreshing that we were not the top students (finally) but had the experiences of being with peers and faculty smarter than we were. The top ranked schools do not have ALL of the top students or faculty (likewise all schools have average professors as well).</p>
<p>Good luck to the OP in figuring out best fit choices.</p>
<p>My daughter is about to graduate from the Plan II Honors Program at the University of Texas, some say one of the top honors programs in the United States inside of a Public University. (I think a “top” program is one that is a good fit for your student) </p>
<p>More work? YES</p>
<p>Harder classes? YES</p>
<p>More connections upon graduating? YES!YES!YES!</p>
<p>I know the thought is that the benefit is smaller classes and a closer knit group of students who are perhaps higher achievers or more like-minded. Plan II has a VERY tight community of students who are not like minded but are “like” driven and have a passion for the love of learning</p>
<p>But for a student who isn’t necessarily looking for more challenging coursework nor even a closer knit group of students, is there any point in applying to be in an honors program? If they are looking at Plan II and they don’t want these things, I would not bother. IMO</p>
<p>My nephew turned down the honors program at UF. He wanted to live with his friends, had certain campus activities he wanted to join, didn’t mind figuring out stuff himself at a huge college. He also went in with 40+ credits so had early registration anyway. My niece (his cousin) did opt for the honors program at a smaller school. She also roomed with a high school friend and had groups of friends from her sport and other activities, so wasn’t looking for a social group. She’s enjoyed it but I’m not sure she’d do it again. Her early registration was from AP credits, not the honors program.</p>
<p>I took several honors courses way back when (they were open to all students, not just those in the honors program). I didn’t find them smaller or harder, but did enjoy them. The biggest difference was that they were graded Honors, pass or fail. The courses offered by the honors college tended to be in the liberal arts, but if an honors program student need Chem 101, that honor student was sitting in the same lecture hall with the other 400 students who needed to take chem.</p>
<p>My non-honors kids haven’t had any problems (except technical) signing up for the classes they want.</p>
<p>In addition to what’s been mentioned here, some honors programs, like mine, offers undergrad research with professors, honors-only study abroad programs, and assistance when applying to bigger scholarships like Rhodes, Fulbright, etc.</p>
<p>UC Santa Barbara has two programs that are honors or honors-like. </p>
<p>One is a more-typical honors program in the College of L&S with priority registration (valuable), honors advising, honors sections of lower-division courses, upper and lower division honors seminars (topics professors are interested in and want to teach as a 2-unit course; looks like mostly humanities or pre-med/pre-law), upper-division “contracts” (adding independent study to a regular course to get honors credit or taking a graduate-level course), community service, housing on honors floors, and access to apply for special scholarships. It looks like the College of Engineering has a similar program, but with less info available on the web. </p>
<p>The College of Creative Studies at UCSB bills itself as “a graduate school for undergraduates.” It is a separate college with majors available in art, biology, chemistry/biochemistry, computer science, literature (may be returning), math, music, and physics. Each program is different, but in general, CCS offers an accelerated path through lower-division courses so that students can start undergrad research (or creative stuff in the humanities) and upper-level/grad courses earlier. For example, the math program starts at Linear Algebra, so Calc through multivariable is assumed as prior knowledge. It includes priority registration, personalized advising, special sections, flexible requirements, CCS housing (optional), and more.</p>
<p>At least 3 different versions of Honors have been presented here in some depth. Wide variations. The Plan II in TX is far more structured than I would prefer- the need to take specific Honors courses in specific areas instead of more choices, for example. The UCSB may be closer to UW’s than it looks- with various Honors courses (UW includes a theory based calculus through linear algebra plus sequence unlike the regular problem based one, and students still get AP credits for calc). Housing- no need to be away from friends in segregated housing at some schools. </p>
<p>It is evident from these examples that each school chooses a different take on how to approach gifted learning on the college level. One size does not fit all and there is no push for uniformity. Yet another factor for those lucky enough to be able to choose OOS to consider.</p>
<p>No. This poster (#37 post) has a different view of things/agenda as shown in other threads. Parent who may not understand her D is not as special as she thinks she is. Several of us have learned (are learning) to ignore comments.</p>
<p>Intersting. My daughter did not find the program restricting at all. Maybe you feel that way because Plan II is not just an honors program but a major itself? For example, IMO the most restrictive requirement is “a year-long freshman course in world literature from the ancients to the present” but what people don’t realize that there is not one “World Literature Course”, there are typically 10-12 depending on the incoming class. These courses can have subject cores from Jane Austen, to the treatment of Animals, to sports management, etc. So it is not just sitting a class reading a plethora of literature, and importantly, student choice (via lottery system).Same with the Plan II philosophy course. Again, a multitude of courses that cover the philosophy of different things, not a board stroke course. Many of the University’s course meet the Plan II’s requirements so I am not sure how that is restrictive. JMO.</p>
<p>But- being required to take a world lit course and a philosophy course despite any content variations is more restrictive than requiring any literature course (perhaps in translation or in a foreign language) or different humanities courses.</p>
<p>This site has information on 50 top public honors programs. The site provides information where to get the book with details of the different public honors programs along with general requirements for admission.</p>
<p>There is much free information on the website as well. For instance, there is a breakdown of average SAT (CR+M) of the public honors programs reviewed. </p>
<p>Wis75, Wisconsin’s honors program participants have SAT average of 1343-1382 and Michigan’s average SAT is much higher at 1417-1521. According to the New York Times, Wisconsin and Michigan both award merit awards which would indicate that they do want high stat kids to apply and enroll. </p>
<p>I agree with many posters who state that all honors programs are different and the above book does highlight the differences and benefits. Please be aware that there are also special competitive programs within many honors programs that provide additional benefits and opportunities as well as additional merit awards. So a careful look is necessary to ferret out the information to maximize your child’s educational opportunities and net cost reductions.</p>
<p>FWIW students in the honors programs at these public universities that have relatively modest student-wide SAT/ACT scores averages, have SAT/ACT scores that are comparable to the students that attend the top universities as defined by USNWR. So your high achieving student will not be alone, they will benefit from the many other high achievers that participate in the honors programs.</p>
<p>When I went to college, there was not a formal honors program or college, but some departments did offer honors versions of some of the courses (which anyone could enroll in instead of the normal course). Presumably, that kept the top students in those subjects interested with more challenging material than is taught in the normal courses.</p>
<p>It does appear that some other schools (not necessarily public) also do something similar.</p>
<p>The table mentioned in post # 53 does not state conditions for merit aid. At UW I wonder if it includes National Merit Scholarships, those from the state for each HS and departmental awards. There is no automatic merit aid at UW for having certain test scores or grades.</p>
<p>wis75 UW does provide merit scholarships to outstanding freshman which probably means that UW Honors students are the recipients of much of the funds since entry into the honor program is a selective process.</p>
<p>As parent of current UW Honors kid – it is not a high stat program but rather a deep intellect program. All admitted students are invited to apply to L&S Honors, and write the essays. Our sense was that, for students who engaged with the essay topics, it was pretty easy acceptance into Honors. My kid was darn lucky to be admitted to UW (3.5, 29) and was admitted to Honors. He is flourishing at UW, but there was nothing about his original application which made him look like a high-achiever or even a good risk. He got lucky to be admitted and is working awfully hard for his success. </p>
<p>General expectation at UW is that there is very little merit money, certainly nothing like the auto scholarships for in state and OOS at Indiana or at Iowa, which are two schools my kid also looked at. </p>
<p>The scholarships mentioned in the link of post # 56 state “historically underrepresented backgrounds”. This means just stats won’t be enough for merit money.</p>
<p>Midwest… I like the “deep intellect” concept and the hard work one. No flaunting your status with special dorms et al. Do it for yourself, nothing else. No need to be separate at a campus where work is expected (“study hard, party hard” saying- notice which comes first, the latter is optional).</p>
<p>wis75 I posted the information about merit awards at Wisconsin because you stated “UW does not offer any of the merit scholarships based on grades or test scores”. I provided the information of merit awards to show that UW does want to enroll top students. I am not sure how UW determines which students should receive the merit awards but I am sure that having good grades and high test scores are an important factor in the selection process. </p>
<p>No one stated that “just stats” would be enough to win merit money at Wisconsin, only that it does award merit scholarships to attract the students it wants on its campus. Per the NY Times article, 10% of its students receive merit awards that amount to about a 30% discount of tuition costs which is about the average merit award for those on the list.</p>
<p>Midwest Not sure what you mean by UW Honors “is not a high stat program but rather a deep intellect program” especially given you stated that your son “there was nothing about his original application which made him look like a high-achiever or even a good risk”? But you are correct that many honors programs have different selection criteria while some have clear entry requirements many do not. The one thing that is clear is that for whatever reason, the students in the honors programs have average SAT/ACT scores and GPAs that are much higher than the school’s general population.</p>
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