How Depressing Is This

Parents Forum
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<p>Loosecannon: if you hate this forum now, just wait till 2 years from today! </p>

<p>You should relax. Thank your lucky stars for a child who is bright, fun, respectful, healthy, and good at heart. Yes, you want to help mold him to achieve all he can, but your ambition for him must be balanced with respect for his true nature, appreciation for the fleeting preciousness of youth, and an understanding that at the end of the day, whether he's an academic star at a big name institution or a happy, well-adjusted kid at a 2d or 3d tier college won't matter worth a fig. As a wise woman who has sent 3 children to college told me, there are many places where your child can be happy. Don't sweat it now.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, I'm waiting to hear where my first born will be accepted and you best believe I'm sweating bullets (tho acting very casual). If you start whipping yourself into a frenzy now, you'll be institutionalized before this is over!</p>

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<p>Loosecannon, I have read this thread and followed how it has moved through different scenarios. Posters have given you solid advice and tips on how to navigate the murky waters of college applications. I am usually highly critical of the the actions and knowledge of GC, but in this case, it seems that she has delivered competent advice. For the record, I do not believe for a second that colleges REALLY poll GCs for their RECOMMENDATION on whom to choose between two students. Colleges may seek additional information, but the decision is always the domain of competent admission officers. The reports of GC -and interviewers for that matter- having the clout to influence decisions in that manner ought to be considered a hard-to-die mythical old housewife tale. </p>

<p>But what would I suggest? One thing: listen to your son and find out what is in HIS heart. Could this sound familiar? I think he is a terrific kid and trusting his instincts might be a good idea.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Is BIO SAT II enough for competitive schools? </p>

<p>I am in 10th grade and I am making up my schedule for next year.</p>

<p>I took the BIO SAT II in 9th grade, and got a 750.
I plan to take the math SAT II in 11th grade.</p>

<p>I don't know what my class rank is. </p>

<p>I have a decent average (about 94/95) at a very competitive school. I am very lucky, in that I can achieve this average with very little effort. There are kids in my class with higher averages, but they work really hard, and I don't chase after every point. </p>

<p>My parents and my school principal say I have a shot at the ivy's. But I don't know where I want to go to college. I don't know if I want to work so hard.</p>

<p>My parents and my school want me to take a competitive schedule next year, to keep my options open. They want me to take another science and a third year of language.</p>

<p>Do I need anther science? My father says that if I want to have a shot at getting into an ivy or MIT, I need a hard science (in addition to BIO). My choices for next year are AP Chem or Regular Physics. I would prefer regular physics, but my school says that they don't cover 3 months of material. So if I wanted to take the Phsyics SAT II, I'd have to cover the 3 months of material on my own.</p>

<p>Is the BIO SAT II enough? Do I need another science SAT II to be competitive for admisssion in an ivy or MIT? Should I take AP chem, and the CHEM SATII, even though I prefer physics? I don't think I would/could cover the extra 3 months of material on my own, which pretty much precludes me from taking an SAT II in physics.</p>

<p>If I sound undecided, its because I am. I have no clue where I want to go to college. And while I may have the brains to get into the ivy's, I don't know if I have the heart. I'm also really lucky in that I have 2 very good safeties, and I'd be really happy in both of them.

[/quote]
</p>

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<p>LooseCannon - Your s has very nice creds so far, keep encouraging him to work hard. Two suggestions that would go far when he does start applying...1) School/class government or club officer to enhance leadership, be sure he chooses one that he's interested in and 2) Community service outside of school, rotary/optomists/key club/Amer.Cancer Society/Red Cross/MealsOnWheels/Appalacian Service Project for example. good luck to him</p>

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<p>emeraldkity: I'm interested in your d's gap years, as my d is considering that as well. I tried to send you a PM but your mailbox is full. If you're willing, pls. send a note to discuss.</p>

<p>Another note to loosec: we all know of lots of situations where GCs have discouraged kids from applying to this school or that, the kids have applied there anyway and are currently attending! So take advice with a grain of salt. GCs are not always well informed or connected, and there are lots of inexplicable admissions decisions out there, as we'll see by tomorrow!</p>

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<p>Yes, you quoted my son.
You see that he is ambivalent.</p>

<p>The science issue was not whether or not to take science. He loves science. He wanted to take BOTH AP Chem and Physics. The school couldn't offer him a schedule like that. There are not enough kids that want to take physics in their junior year. And they really wanted him to take a 3rd year of language, a subject that he hates, even though he's doing well at it. They felt the language was a more important resume builder than junior year physics. The GC is the professional, and I felt we had to listen to her. </p>

<p>I hate pushing him. Even though in the long run, I think I am right to push him. But it saddens me now to see him so resigned.</p>

<p>I want to make it very clear that its not MY dream to send him to an IVY. I said earlier that I myself don't know if he belongs in an ivy. And right now, its certainly not his dream. So I walk a line between pushing him to take courses that will challenge him, and one subject (language) that he hates but that will help keep his options open, and his desire to get out of the subjects that he hates (again, language).</p>

<p>I also said he succumbed to the pressure and is taking the schedule recommended by the GC. I just feel bad about it. He seemed unhappy when he went to school this morning. It depresses me to see him unhappy.</p>

<p>I think my instincts about him are on target. How did he come across to you? Like a bright 16 year old kid that wants to be a kid. What have I been saying all along?</p>

<p>The GC has been encouraging him to do something interesting in the summer. He wants to relax. He wants to be outside and play. And that's what he's doing. I'm not totally heartless :-) .</p>

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<p>Let him relax. I think that officially "iinteresting" mpressive activities like those packaged community service tours and the very good but costly summer academic programs are getting very recognizable to colleges and I suspect are somewhat devalued precisely because they are so heavily used as admissions tools by privileged applicants. Perhaps he could work part of the summer as a day camp junior counselor, which is structured and might actually relate to some of his interests. Or perhaps there is some homegrown real community service project he could get involved in (preservation effort at local historic site, community center wrestling program for little kids...) that would be interesting but also leave enough time and space for him to relax the rest of the summer</p>

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<p>He wanted to take BOTH AP Chem and Physics. The school couldn't offer him a schedule like that.
most schools can't offer students TWO science classes- not until everyone else has ONE.</p>

<p>*And they really wanted him to take a 3rd year of language, a subject that he hates, even though he's doing well at it. *
Language is important and if he wants to go to grad school in the sciences it will be even more important</p>

<p>I just feel bad about it. He seemed unhappy when he went to school this morning. It depresses me to see him unhappy
Life is too short to be depressed everytime a teenager seems unhappy- really
Plus kids are 100% different when they are at school with their friends- than when they are home with their parents
completely different people ;)</p>

<p>He can do something interesting and go outside and play in the summer
My kids have always volunteered in summers
it is a great experience- they are outside & it builds connections and confidence for later paid work.</p>

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<p>Loose - Here's an idea. Your s likes design, math, science...look at your local university to approach him with the idea of participating in a summer "camp". Many leading colleges (maybe even one he has an interest in) have summer programs in many areas of interest. I'm keying on your mention of architecture because my s had an amazing experience that even got him 2.5 college credits doing what he loved AND sure got noticed on his apps. Most of the top architecture colleges have such programs. Some that we looked at - PSU, CCS, NCSU, UNC(Charlotte), VaTech, RISD, Pratt, CMU, UM.</p>

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<p>


</p>

<p>We tried that. He's not interested. He wants to be outside and do sports with his friends. He has a job at a summer camp where a lot of his friends go. It was his choice, and I'm fine with it. </p>

<p>I'm beginning to see that these 'packaged' summer programs that win the kid the nobel peace prize are nothing more than great experiences for rich kids. And why volunteer in Argentina/Ukraine/Indonesia, when there is plenty of need right here at home?</p>

<p>I'd love to send him on one of those programs. But That IS my dream. Its not his.</p>

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<p>LC:
The thoughtful, experienced posters on CC are giving you a lot of advice, so here's a little more.
Your son should do what he wants to next year! Have him check a few college websites to find out about requirements and then he should pick his own schedule. (Maybe you should demand a line item veto on this one.)
My son did not even take a modern language in high school, only latin, and he got into 9/10 colleges, many highly selective. He is a science kid and wanted to do more science. He has now picked up his middle school French as a college freshman.
It can be done many different ways. As I mentioned in an earlier post, his passion and individuality is what will set him apart.</p>

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<p>I just want to conclude this post by wishin all of your children the best of luck. I hope that they all get into the colleges of their dreams. But as my wonderful GC would say</p>

<p>"They will ALL get into the colleges that are right for them".</p>

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<p>LooseCannon-I have been reading your thread with interest. My son is a freshman at WASHU. He was a gifted student who was not challenged enough in his hs and was uninterested in "playing the game". He loaded up on courses (APs) Soph and Jr years (breaking out of the standard college track by taking 2 maths and 2 sciences in 1 year). Sr year he only needed 1.5 credits. He ended up at the local Big Ten college (through post secondary) taking a Japanese Intensive program that gave him 4 years of College Japanese in 1 year and 1 quarter (he went 2 summers).
Advantages..
1)he learned to deal in a college environment and realized he could handle it, helping his confidence level entering college this past year
2) he was uninterested in the languages offered at the hs so he actually took something he was "passionate" about and did extremely well at
3)his attitude was great his whole senior year...the college challenge really turned him on again
4)his non-traditional approach interested colleges and one of the Japanese profs in the summer program who he got to know well, is at WASHU..the connection didn't hurt I am sure.</p>

<p>I do think colleges look for what makes your child special. He has some unique interests. Encourage him to pursue areas he is very interested in, maybe a college environment might help him as it did my S.</p>

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<p>One last parting comment as this thread winds down...
I will exaggerate a bit, with tongue in cheek on purpose, but I hope my point is clear. I fully agree with Marite re: "underachievers". A kid who is the top of the middle in HS (including students taking "medium demand" classes at top HSs) will likely become the middle of the top at HPYSM. Combine that with sub-par study skills and mediocre motivation and drive and you have a recipe for failure. Those schools can and should sniff these kids out early. The goal is not only for a kid to make it into a school, but for the kid to make it successfully through school, graduate, do well, be successful and give lots of $$ back to their alma mater. Schools are making an investment in every kid they accept into their school. They should identify those kids who they think will succeed. Otherwise, its simply a bad investment.</p>

<p>I have one of those hard driving grind kids, and one of those underachiever kids. Both are equally smart and have equal potential. The younger one just doesn't have that inner drive, that passion for learning. He doesn't go the extra mile, to push himself when things take the extra effort. He recently decided not to apply for a peer leadership position at school that he'd been talking about for quite some time because he'd forgotten to pick up the application 'til the last minute, and he didnt think he'd have time to get the essays done. My older one would have been mad at himself for almost missing the deadline and would have burnt the midnight oil to get it done. Younger one just bagged it. Clearly different styles.</p>

<p>I do not think that the younger son (the underachiever) should (nor will he) apply to the top top top schools. He will apply to top tier schools, and maybe even a top 20 or 2, but if he doesn't develop the self discipline that it takes to do well at these schools, he doesn't belong there. Plain and simple. Don't get me wrong- I love him, his wit, his fun spirit, his social acumen, his intellect. I just dont want to push him to go somewhere he doesn't really belong. I am not worried-- he isn't pushing himself to go to these schools. He knows himself. </p>

<p>In re-reading this thread, it sounds like the OP realizes her s. is going to blaze his own path and find his niche. The only thing I disagree with in her posts is her giving credit to the gc for "placing" the students. I don't think any gc (and ours is pretty well known at many schools too) can "place" any kid at any school. As good as any gc is, they simply don't have that much power. But it does sound like the gc is just giving a heavy dose of reality. We don't always want to hear that.....</p>

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<p>Relax. There is nothing going on at Yale today for you and your son than is more important than what is happening in your own backyard. So enjoy it - it won't last long, for either of you.</p>

<p>As for these "top schools" - there is no evidence that they are any harder to get into than they used to be. There may be 150,000 applications to Ivies (for example), but there are only 50-60,000 discrete applicants (who aren't Hail Marys or internationals without a chance), competing for 23,000 places (assuming an 85% "Ivy yield" - the equivalent of 26,000). In other words, the odds of an applicant with Ivy stats and athletics and ECs getting into an Ivy are 40-50%, and that doesn't change simply because the same folks are throwing in more applications.</p>

<p>So chill - there are so many wonderful colleges and universities in the U.S. today, filled with students as aware, alive, and as smart as those at HYP or wherever, that it really isn't worth working up a sweat over.</p>

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<p>Truthfully, there are kids who aren't meant to go to top tier schools, even if they are intellectually gifted. They don't have either the drive or the ambition in academics, although might have it in other areas. Contrary to some people, I don't think that is necessarily a character flaw.</p>

<p>I have such a child, with enormous potential in math. He has skipped two high school years in math, and could skip a third if he put more than half an effort in. He has equal capacity for Science, and doesn't put much more effort in there; though still does well. He isn't bored because he isn't challenged; he just isn't all that interested.</p>

<p>He is passionate about music though, and exquisitely talented. It is a deep and abiding passion, much more so than academics, despite his intellect.</p>

<p>So, while we may have thought he was heading to MIT or CalTech when he was a small boy doing Algebra, now we know that isn't his dream at all. </p>

<p>And in the last analysis, his dream is the only one that is important.</p>

<p>So, I guess that is a long round about way of saying that perhaps the OP should listen a little more to what her son is saying. Her pushing for all those harder classes, even if done out of love and caring, may, or may not, benefit him. At some point, the onus for learning has to be on the student him/herself.</p>

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<p>The problem is high school may not be the best place to test that assumption. My S was not a great HS student, often not turning in assignments, etc. He spent maybe two hours a night studying. Once he got into an intellectually stimulating and very demanding academic environment he blossomed. He loves it, and is doing amazingly, and unpredictably, well. Looks like the admissions folks knew more than I did.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
My S was not a great HS student, often not turning in assignments, etc. He spent maybe two hours a night studying. Once he got into an intellectually stimulating and very demanding academic environment he blossomed.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My S used to be able to complete his math homework during the five minutes it took to wait for the bus. That is what pushed us to seek the "intellectually stimulating and very demanding environment" in which "he blossomed." Except that it took place in 7th grade, not college. When he complained about high school, it tended to be because classes were too slow, not too demanding.</p>

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<p>LooseC, There seem to be several tangents going on here. There’s a big difference between a smart kid who underachieves because he’s lazy or disinterested and a “lopsided” kid who over achieves in areas that he’s interested in and underachieves in those that he doesn’t much care about. </p>

<p>My son and I nearly came to blows over his senior year schedule which didn’t include several of the supposed prerequisites of top colleges. His academic counselor (different from his college counselor) said “follow your heart.” He did and at least one selective college saw the wisdom of that route. Since he applied ED we’ll never know whether he would have been similarly lucky across the board, but I feel in retrospect that it doesn’t do any good to jam the square peg kid in the academic or EC round hole. I was wrong and he was right to concentrate and excel in what he cared about. [And like your son he hated language as well!]</p>

<p>Of course, this is all relative. My son wanted to take art and creative writing and religion instead of science and math. Whether these choices were more or less rigorous is arguable as he certainly didn’t choose them because he wanted to slack off. Whether it was more or less risky is not arguable – it was a huge risk – but a calculated risk that was right for him. </p>

<p>You don’t explain what your son wants to do in lieu of the “most challenging.” If he just wants to do less work then your pressure to direct him toward the more challenging courses was most likely the correct strategy. If he wants to take another route – unorthodox but equally challenging – then that might be an equally correct strategy. In other words, it depends.</p>

<p>Colleges are looking for interesting kids who do interesting things. The interest has to be heartfelt and intense. It doesn’t have to be unique and it certainly shouldn’t be scripted according to some one else’s idea of what s/he needs to “get in.” As Marite said at the very beginning of this thread, he’s got a great combination of arts/sports/academics. A summer job as a camp counselor is a WONDERFUL opportunity, both personally AND as a resume builder. </p>

<p>I think your son’s GC may be a bit over the top to say that he doesn’t stand out. Maybe a better way to put it is that he needs to start thinking about how to assemble his application so his accomplishments are well communicated and he is sure to stand out. This is an art in itself, but he has another year and half before he has to focus on that. In the meantime, he should continue on the route he’s chosen.</p>

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<p>Loosecannon, I am the parent of a college dropout. My son spent most of his time in high school (outside of class) playing Grand Theft Auto. He didn't have any EC's, he rarely even left the house. He is very, very smart. He went to a low-challenge high school and did take every AP they offered, had straight A's and really good test scores with only one sitting at each, and no prep. His teachers wrote in the recs that he was "brilliant" and he went to an expensive elite east coast college and did very, very well in some very difficult courses. And he did very, very poorly in some courses that should have been easy. Because the thing is, if my son is engaged, he works very hard... and if not he slacks off. At college he got really into watching movies & downloading music. He enjoyed college, but he didn't do well. (B average, but only because the A's balanced out against the D's)</p>

<p>The good news is that when he decided to quit college he found his niche in the first job he took; he worked very hard, got promoted, and now has a very impressive resume for himself. After 2 years he quit job #1, posted a resume, and was deluged with calls for interviews. His new job comes with a very impressive title for a 23-year-old. </p>

<p>I have a daughter too, and she is very bright but can't manage to test well at all. She does very well at school, but decided to do a foreign exchange her junior year, and had difficulty fitting in desired coursework on top of that - so she really couldn't go the "most challenging schedule" route. She just got accepted to Barnard. (We were advised that my daughter's test scores were far too low for Barnard, but she insisted on applying anyway). The teachers wrote in my daughter's recs that she is "ambitious" and "bright" (not "brilliant" like her brother).</p>

<p>Somehow I think that "ambitious" trumps "brilliant". I think my daughter will do o.k. in a top school, because she applies herself to everything in a way he never did -- but I think that it may have been a mistake for my son to aim as high as he did. My son is a wonderful person, but he's not so great of a student. He would rather do crossword puzzles or read a book than go to class. (He did pretty much outgrow the videogames). </p>

<p>You can push... or not ... but you can't turn a kid into someone he is not. If a kid's ambition is to go to MIT, then that kid probably needs no prodding. But when it comes down to it, even my ambitious daughter probably did better for herself by deviating from the prescribed path -- at least she had something really interesting to write about for her college essays. </p>

<p>The one thing I can say in favor of encouraging a gifted underachiever to take more challenging courses is that my experience with my son is he did better when challenged -- so he actually was happier in that situation. </p>

<p>So again - take a big step back from this. Your son is "special" because of who he is -- and as a parent you should encourage him to take on challenge, but not push to change him. If you can answer the question, "will doing X help him grow as a person" in the affirmative, then go ahead and encourage. But if the reason for the prodding is to fit into someone else's idea of what he should do or aspire to ... then you are going down the wrong path. </p>

<p>I would suggest that you re-evaluate next year's schedule and see if there is a medium path that can be taken -- that is, perhaps your son should be taking the most challenging courses in his areas of interest, or well they will put him with teachers who will be very good for him to be with -- but if there is an AP on his schedule for a course that you know he is not interested in, or with a teacher you know will probably not mesh well with him.... consider some alternatives.</p>

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<p>In any case.</p>

<p>I have taken to heart all of your good advice.</p>

<p>I thought about my original post again this morning. Why it bothered me so much what the counselor said.</p>

<p>In the end, the reason is that I think my son is so special, its hard for me to understand or believe that someone out there may not have the same opinion (a mother's conundrum).</p>

<p>Especially since the reasons hes so special (at least to me) are not academic. To me, the reason he is special is because he is such a good boy. Polite, respectful, caring, considerate. When I walk into a room and introduce myself as his mother, I get smiles and compliments about how good he is. NOT how smart he is (though that comes second). Its these qualities, far more than his academics, that make him so special. That's really the reason that I say that any college that doesn't accept him, its their loss.</p>

<p>I am so blessed to have him (and lets not forget my daughter either - but she's already in college!).</p>

<p>I weighed what all of you said. But the truth is, I really admire and respect our GC. She said that the kids who didn't pursue the traditional path toward college (at least in our school) were less competitive than those who did. In my heart of hearts, I believe her, and I have to listen to her.</p>

<p>I force my son to do a lot of things. I forced him this year to take 2 classes that he hates. One of them he breezes thru, even though he hates it. The second one hates, AND he has to work hard (for him, which translates to about 1/5 of the effort of the other kids) in it. I forced him to take the class because I knew he'd have to work. I wanted him to acquire some study skills. But more than that, I wanted him to learn that not everything in life comes easy. And you can't always have everything that you want.</p>

<p>If he does get into a highly selective college ... say Columbia ... there is going to be a core requirement. Chances are he's going to hate it. I'm not saying that 1) He's going to get into Columbia (though I do wish he would, its in my backyard!) 2) Even if he gets in, he's going to want to go. What I am saying is that someday, he's going to have to take a course that he hates. I want him to be prepared for that. His school is a warm, nurturing place, a good place to learn this lesson.</p>

<p>And in any event, his school can't accomodate his special requests. They couldn't give him the schedule he proposed. I'm happy that they are bending over backward to work with him, a sophomore. They've got juniors and seniors to worry about.</p>

<p>I just went to the library and got my son some science books for him to pursue on his own. My eyes were rolling after I looked at the first page .... I hope he enjoys them. I ran into a parent of one of the seniors at our school. The kid got into Brandeis and WashU. I asked her about it. His grades, his SATs. his ec's. What does she say? "Oh, your son is a genius, you don't have to worry". This is the mantra I've been hearing about him for years.</p>

<p>The GC was the first person to ever even imply to either him or me that this may not be the case.</p>

<p>I'm realistic. I do worry. I read these boards. My hard goes out to the broken-hearted kids who faced reality for the first time in their lives. I don't want my child to be one of these broken-hearted kids. A (not so) hard dose of reality is good for him (and me).</p>

<p>Anyway, thanks for all of your support. I'll let you know the verdict in two years from now. In the meantime, I'll enjoy my son.</p>

<p>I'd also be interested in hearing the verdicts for your children. I hope their dreams come true.</p>