<p>Well I think this is a very useful thread and I just finished reading all the posts, which I began last night. Since I have a quiet, serious student for a son, first off I greatly appreaciated ariesthena's first post about the struggles of introverted personalities, which actually brought tears to my eyes.
Secondly, I have seen a trend toward "psychoanalyzing" in the classroom for years now. I feel this is very dangerous and that teachers should teach their academic subjects, period. If they suspect a problem, this should be referred to a counselor who should then speak with a parent. This teacher's behavior was totally out-of-bounds, and I do not think the OP was/is overreacting in the least.<br>
Lastly, it does seem to me that this particular teacher has a grudge against this student, probably because he questioned her grading. It sounds to me that there is some insecurity there and that she did not take kindly to the student's implied criticism of her. It also sounds as if she may have been threatened by his leadership in the classroom regarding grading.
As we've all heard from recent studies, boys seem to be falling behind academically. From personal experience I know it is not easy for these boys to continue their intrinsic motivation surrounded by the attitudes of other students and even teachers. The very people, teachers, who you would think would encourage a studious nature, often do not do so. There have been times when teachers have expressed outright hostility toward my son's achievement.
There is nothing in this story that I find at all unusual. And on a side note, my son and I laugh most about English teachers. They tend to be the most "loopy," as we have come to put it. It is important these kids learn to roll with the punches, as it appears jlauer's son has done. I wish him all the best!</p>
<p>jlauer,
I do not see how the rest of your 5th paragraph (the one beginning "Lastly,") relates to your topic sentence. </p>
<p>Separately, after continuing to read reply after reply here, I am astounded by the lack of awareness regarding owning up to one's opinions and even stereotypes. Lots of protestations about how really no general criticism of an entire group of people is meant, yet digs about groups of teachers, types of teachers, artsy teachers, English teachers, loopy teachers, teachers in certain categories of schools, teachers with bad breath, "trends" in new teachers, and on and on. I thought this thread was about one particular case of one particular teacher and whether the behavior described was or was not professional, appropriate.</p>
<p>I have met one heck of a lot of assanine lawyers, careless physicians, dentists with amazingly bad breath, <em>very</em> loopy psychologists, etc. (And my point would be?)</p>
<p>Just one big wow at how lucky I feel to see none of the narrow attitudes displayed here duplicated in parents of my students. Who knows? Maybe they ridicule me behind my back the way some of you ridicule past/present teachers, but if so, they're very accomplished actors. They treat me with respect & gratitude. Rare is the parent who acts resentful of me: they are limited to a tiny portion who does not like me because I actually require their sons & daughters to work. Those same parents are also the ones completely disengaged in their children's education & want no part of it. They're a minuscule fraction of the total parent population that I have met. I would not feel justified in stereotyping parents because of this marginal group.</p>
<p>Anyway, feel free anyone to continue with your damning-with-faint-praise. Personally, I think it has nothing to do with the thread-opener, but I guess some of you needed this thread to kvetch in general, or something.</p>
<p>epiphany: When one has been down in the trenches in these situations, it's called "having a sense of humor." It is called a "coping mechanism." What several posters are trying to say is that high school is hard enough without SOME teachers adding to the burden, which, unfortunately, they do much too often. Calling a teacher here and there "loopy" is a way to cope. If it bruises the ego of a teacher here and there to think that parents and students may be speaking of them in this manner behind his/her back, so be it. High school and adolescence are hard enough, especially for the introverted, sensitive, studious types we are speaking about here. As a parent, I have to worry more about my kid's survival than your sensitivites about stereotyping teachers. That's just the way it is, and if the kids have to roll with the punches, I guess you have to learn to do the same.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <blockquote> <p>. Lots of protestations about how really no general criticism of an entire group of people is meant, yet digs about groups of teachers, types of teachers, artsy teachers, English teachers, loopy teachers, teachers in certain categories of schools, teachers with bad breath, "trends" in new teachers, and on and on. I thought this thread was about one particular case of one particular teacher and whether the behavior described was or was not professional, appropriate. <<<<</p> </blockquote> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Why have I been blamed for any generalizations that others have posted? When I used the word "nutty" (or something similar), I am no more saying that all teachers are nutty then when I used the word "nutty" to describe some parents. I don't think you would say that I think all parents are nutty just because I described a parent or two as being nutty. Therefore, I am not generalizing.</p>
<p>Epiphany,
You sound like a great teacher - we all LOVE great teachers! But you have to admit, just as in all fields there are some teachers that shouldn't be teaching. The problem with this is that they affect our children. Loopy parents only affect their own children. My children have been blessed with many great teachers. I would kiss the ground they walked on. But we have had our share of bad teachers. One teacher my daughter had ripped up a paper that a classmate wrote and sprinkled it on top of his head like snow and told him his work wasn't good enough in front of the whole class. I was appalled and even though this was not my child I complained so that the principal knew what was going on in the class (this was one of many such incidents). I told my child don't be rude and just get through it. To this day when she has a hard time with a teacher I tell her "you made it through Mrs. S_____ you can make it through anything" and we both laugh and she moves on.</p>
<p>"We do get annoyed when schools take this "united" stance and ignore that we are paying customers. Because colleges prepare teachers to teach in public schools, some educators that end up in private schools seem to forget that schools are not "jobs programs" for adults."</p>
<p>I don't think that the OP ever generalized about all teachers, and her complaint about the behavior of her son's teacher is completely valid; however, her language in this quotation, I think, explains why some people are riled. The "paying customers" line of thought is a little crass, and the implication that public schools amount to "job programs" for adults is certainly condescending. I don't think the OP intended any of these effects, but I can see how some people have found her language off-putting at times.</p>
<p>to quote sbmomof3</p>
<p>"I tell her "you made it through Mrs. S_____ you can make it through anything" and we both laugh and she moves on."</p>
<p>i think that's the point we're trying to make here. there are some things that come your way in life that you have to rise above. we can not change the attitudes/actions of all teachers and administrators to suit our individual preferences, but we CAN control how we deal with it. </p>
<p>haven't we all suffered through some injustice or another? does dwelling on it make it any easier? i say that take the comment for what is was worth--a well-intentioned teacher who didn't carefully express himself--and move forward.</p>
<p>learning how to deal with positive and negative comments from adults and peers is part of a life-long learning process for all of us. i would hope that your son could take something positive away from this and realize that not all comments made to/about him have to determine his fate. one person's perception does not make his reality.</p>
<p>What I noticed is that the OP painted a picture that implied that her son was deeply damaged by the encounter with the teacher, and the son, in his posts, was upset, but not to the degree (at least in his posting now) that his mother led us to believe.</p>
<p>We as parents need to be sure and give our kids some credit for being able to handle harsh words. Not saying, once again, blame the victim or that a parent does nothing, but this kid seemed to handle it well, and not in the way mom shared with us.</p>
<p>I think we as parents can do some harm to our children, while trying to protect them and right a wrong. It is a fine line between standing up for them,and saying, see how hurt they are, how weak this had made, them, how disturbed they are by this encounter, and the child may be fine now. THe parent, obviously, needs to follow through on the egregious behavior, for the behavior itself, but we need to be careful that we don't show our kids that we don't think they handled it well, if you get what I am saying. If we say our kids were damaged, they will be,even if they have gotten over it. Sometimes kids with show what parents need to see.</p>
<p>"I don't think you would say that I think all parents are nutty just because I described a parent or two as being nutty."</p>
<p>Oh, I don't know, I think we all get nutty from time to time. We do have children, after all.</p>
<p>I have been interested to read this thread over the past couple of days, and was particularly interested to read the OP's son's own comments.</p>
<p>Here's my take, for better or for worse. I think the teacher made a stupid comment, an unnecesary one. But to me, it is not one that would have required the level of intensity of emotion or intervention that I have read on this thread. </p>
<p>Truth is, I think we do our children a disservice by trying to pad their worlds, cover every boo-boo, protect them from every possible discomfort, emotional or physical. Sometimes, people, even well meaning teachers, say dumb or hurtful things. It happens again and again in life, and learning to deal with words, as just that, is an important part of growing up.</p>
<p>ALLMUSIC, you said what i was trying to say, but with clarity :0</p>
<p>But to me, it is not one that would have required the level of intensity of emotion or intervention that I have read on this thread
while I agree that jlauers son is balanced and has a good perspective on this, I reacted strongly because first, this teacher did not have the experience with this student to make that sort of comment.</p>
<p>While I suppose you could argue that students should be able to let comments made by teachers go in one ear and out the other if irrelevant, this teacher did not know how this student would react to her negative comments- and there didnt seem to be a basis for them, other than jumping to conclusions.
Would she comment like that to an adult? What sort of action did she expect the student to take? Why did she not first go to parents, and why did the administration take her "side"?
I think that is why people reacted so strongly, not so much because of this particular case, but because students can be pretty vulnerable to influence by teachers, and parents want to help them reach adulthood without too much emotional baggage.
But if we dont know about it, we cant help them deal with it & we wouldnt expect an English teacher to be giving psychological advice.</p>
<p>Quote # 1:---"I don't think that the OP ever generalized about all teachers."
Quote #2:---"Why have I been blamed for any generalizations that others have posted"?</p>
<p>None of my remarks blamed the OP for generalizations about others. However, what I have learned from this thread is the following:
(1) Lots of repliers read posts way too hastily.
(2) Lots of parents (probably some on this thread) read teachers a lot too hastily.
(3) Some posters believe that their style & reasons for criticisms of teachers (esp. groups, types, subgroups, & convenient categories) are very amusing. My comment is, Don't quit your day job.
(4) The observations, and yes, GENERALIZATIONS about teachers from several posters on this thread (that may be the 3rd time in this thread that I've said posters, plural) reveal much more about the posters than the phantom teachers being mocked. Judging from the hastily assessed (misread) replies I've noted, I question the accuracy, veracity & overall credibility of these group criticisms.</p>
<p>SBMOM,
...and there are psychologists who shouldn't be psychologists, realtors who are better suited to being "soldiers" for the Mafia, surgeons who should have their licenses pulled, store clerks who should be drama teachers or artists, priests who should be in mental hospitals or in prison, high school & college administrators who should be in high-ticket sales, etc. I have no proof, and <em>certainly</em> not from this thread, that there's a higher proportion of incompetence -- or inappropriate career placement -- among teachers than among practitioners of any other specific field/profession. This post does absolutely NOTHING quantitatively, statistically, to support such a premise.</p>
<p>wbow,
while I think the OP had some valid concerns, & I have never criticized her for presenting a particular case about a particular teacher, I do in general like the thrust of your reply. I think both are valid, actually. I think any parent can and SHOULD question, criticize, report on behavior they object to or wonder about, in a teacher. (And I, a parent, have occasionally done the same!) That is very different, though, from dwelling on the incident as if that's the big picture. And it is very, <em>very</em> different from repliers' statements about teachers in general, groups of teachers, etc. When my children have had some out-and-out incompetent, unprofessional, & just down right bad teachers, I have counseled them, eventually (after bringing a complaint that often did not bring about a change, apology, etc.:(), on how to deal with it & move on. As one poster said here or probably on another thread, he or she teaches the S or D how to just survive such bad situations -- but without validating or approving of the improper behavior. I've done the same. I've been very clear with my kids as to what I consider improper, how I have dealt with it on their behalf, how I support them if/when I do in those cases, & then the student & I work out together how we will deal with such a situation (or policy, sometimes) for the rest of the year, course, etc. Those are 2 life lessons, I feel: teaching them about behavior that should be disapproved of, and teaching them how to cope with bad behavior when they are in a position of relative powerlessness.</p>
<p>epiphany, since your post is nicely grammatical and almost entirely spelled correctly, I'll point out that it's spelled "asinine."</p>
<p>Yes, thanks, dmd, I remembered that right after posting, but failed to correct in time.:) -- including with the later post! (An often misspelled word, although usually not by me)</p>
<p><em>hangs head</em></p>
<p>A point I forgot to mention, regarding post #123. The thread was not about "teachers" or even "some teachers." The thread was about a specific teacher & specific incident. My objection is to the frequent hijacking of the thread to complain inappropriately, & in sometimes exaggerated fashion & contemptuous tone, about teachers as a group. I don't think that's helpful, it's a tactic laden with agendas, & as I say, it reveals more about the character of the complainers actually than about teachers whose reputations & actions cannot be independently verified by CC readers. </p>
<p>But much more importantly, I am far more irritated & offended by sloppy thinking & illogical argument (i.e., not sticking to the discussion at hand) than about mean-spirited & inaccurate generalizations. To quote the character Michael Corleone in Godfather II, "it insults my intelligence."</p>
<p>epiphany: Since I don't know you, but you singled out my posts a couple of times now for some reason (although I don't know why - what I said didn't seem much different from what others said), I thought I would respond. I will try to do so without sloppy thinking.</p>
<p>My primary intention was to thank the OP and posters for what I thought was an interesting thread. The thread hit home for me because the original problem presented was similiar to MANY situations I have unfortunately had to bear witness to with my own children over the years.</p>
<p>My secondary intention was to commiserate with the OP and to try to convey, in a light hearted manner (which you apparently did not appreciate), that this kind of thing goes on all the time. (You yourself just referenced "bad teachers" in your last post.)</p>
<p>For some reason my posts seem to have pushed some specific buttons for you. Frankly, I don't understand what you found to be inappropriate or insensitive about what I said. I am trying to raise my boys to be resilient, and so far I've done a pretty good job, I think, in the face of some pretty horrific statements/actions/behaviors on the part of some teachers. Many teachers (yes, of course there are good, sensitive teachers out there!) have commented on my kids' great attitude and sense of humor which, they've said, will take them far. All of the negative experiences have been learning experiences, of course. That does not mean that they are not upsetting and discouraging each and every time one occurs.</p>
<p>I have noticed other threads dealing tangentially with issues other than very specific answers to an OP's specific question. I don't know why this should bother you so much, and if for some reason you've taken what I've said personally and are offended, I am sorry.</p>
<p>I have avoided posting on this thread because I know I will get a lot of negative, defensive reactions to my comments. After some thought, I decided my comments might be helpful. </p>
<p>We transferred my older D to a Catholic HS because she needed an environment with some more discipline and attention. She did not like it but seemed to benefit. There were plenty of experiences similar to that of the OP. We often did not hear about them and when we did we trusted the school. I have come to realize we made a lot of mistakes due to that trust. After additional incidents with my second D, I realized that standards for private schools are much different than for public schools. Private schools are often not held to the same standards as public schools. This can include teacher experience, training, and licensure as well as cirriculum and other important aspects of education. We often select private schools for academics but also for a religious, spiritual and ethical orientation. We are paying for input which goes beyond the realm of the public schools. I think it is important to realize that many of the teachers have a religious orientation, but may have little training which would qualify them to provide the level of input we desire. </p>
<p>The experience of my younger D was very bad. She was the victim of sexual abuse while on a school trip. Although the aggressor was a fellow student, the school reacted very defensively. I suppose they did not want to admit the problem or the lack of adequate supervision. We had to transfer my D to public school in addition to paying for some legal help and therapy. We also found after the transfer that the local public school was much better and more demanding in academics. </p>
<p>Although our experience was bad, many kids had much worse experiences. Clearly many thousands of kids were abused by priests and the Catholic church closed ranks and was quite successful in covering up these problems for decades. I am sure the vast majority of kids have had good experiences at Catholic schools, but there have been more than enough very serious problems to warrant concern and caution.</p>
<p>it is with sadness, that i turned to the internet, hoping to find a way to deal with a parent who accuses me of being UNSTABLE, and find the hard truth about parents and teachers. This is my first year of teaching, and i have enjoyed 100%, however, the idea of "retiring" from the Teaching Career, crossed my mind a couple of times, it is extremely hard to deal on a daily basis with teens, who lack respect for almost everything, including themselves.
To my surprise, i find all kinds of postings and websites, dedicated exclusively to TRASH, the image of teachers all over the country. '
Has the world gone mad?</p>
<p>Are you all forgetting that teachers spend more time with your kids than yourselves, sure, you expect us to provide your kids with a wholesome eductaion, heck, you even count on us to show them the basics rules of behavior, only to undermind us everyday, and actually tell your kids that their teacher, the one who spends countless hour working on a lesson plan, that will engage the attention of your kids, while expanding their knowledge, that same teacher, that lends an ear when YOUR kids have a broken heart, is an a##h###s and that he should PLAY the game as best as posible,
ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING?</p>
<p>The way educators see it
WE HAVE THE MOST IMPORTANT JOB OF THEM ALL
WITHOUT US,,, the world would not be the same, So don't you dare undermind and insult a teacher who holds your childs life in his hands</p>
<p>
[quote]
The way educators see it
WE HAVE THE MOST IMPORTANT JOB OF THEM ALL
WITHOUT US,,, the world would not be the same, So don't you dare undermind and insult a teacher who holds your childs life in his hands
[/quote]
Well, I guess I just don't see it your way. I actually think that, while teachers play an important role in kids' lives, the parents are the ones who have the greatest influence. I am a SAHM who has spent the last 19 years dedicated to raising my children, and have appreciated the many fine teachers who have influenced them along the way. I have also encountered a few whose damage I've had to undo. If you can't take a little criticism, especially that which is not directed at you personally, you will have a difficult time surviving the profession.</p>