How does gifted slacker S get into college?

Parents Forum
21

<p>It's a tough situation and not an uncommon one especially with boys, it seems. Many of them need some time to mature. Sometimes forcing them to go through the paces during that time means blowing through some options. There is no easy solution and they usually involve time. </p>

<p>For one thing, if your son truly is not interested in doing college level academics, it might be wise for him to do a non academic or lower level course of study. Try to focus on the organization and completion issues rather than the difficulty or prestige of the work. It may be that a couple of years away from the academics might give him the time to to take a fresh look at things and tackle them the right way when he is older. I have seen a number of older kids who are finally getting it right. Trying to push them through when they are not willing and doing their share is not going to lead to a whole lot of success.</p>

<p>I think counseling is in order, and working with the school counselor as well as a psychologist if you can manage it.</p>

22

<p>I'm glad menloparkmom already referred you to the helpful thread </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/503623-struggle-challenge-good-work-carol-dweck.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/503623-struggle-challenge-good-work-carol-dweck.html&lt;/a> </p>

<p>opened by taomom. What you describe sounds like a fairly commonplace pattern for a bright student who had underchallenging school lessons that at first were easy but that never helped him develop study habits or resilience if he didn't succeed on the first try. It's possible to learn study habits, and it's possible to learn resiliency.</p>

23

<p>
[quote]
How does gifted slacker S get into college?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh, and to answer the fundamental question in the thread title, an applicant with iffy aspects in his application file gets into college by applying widely, and making sure to look carefully for a "safety" college that is suitable for that applicant. See </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/437362-looking-good-college.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/437362-looking-good-college.html&lt;/a> </p>

<p>for a list of colleges, and see </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/493323-make-sure-your-child-s-application-list-includes-safety-college.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/493323-make-sure-your-child-s-application-list-includes-safety-college.html&lt;/a> </p>

<p>for how to define a safety college. There is a safety college for any smart student, even a student with bad grades on the high school record.</p>

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<p>Much sympathy, WearyMom, from another mother of a gifted, underachieving son. I found this article, written by a psychiatrist in NYC who has worked with highly gifted, underachieving adolescents for many years, very enlightening:</p>

<p>Underachievement</a> in Exceptionally Gifted Adolescents and Young Adults: A Psychiatrist's View</p>

<p>It is well-known that many gifted kids suffer from perfectionism and not because of poor parenting.</p>

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<p>weary mother - a book that might be of some help is "The Minds of Boys - Saving our sons from falling behind in school and life." here's a link for the book's description:</p>

<p>The</a> Minds of Boys - Book description - The Gurian Institute</p>

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<p>
[quote]
For one thing, if your son truly is not interested in doing college level academics, it might be wise for him to do a non academic or lower level course of study. Try to focus on the organization and completion issues rather than the difficulty or prestige of the work.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This wasn't written about my S, but it could have been. But the thing is, he is interested. He doesn't seem to understand that there is a problem and that he needs to apply himself. He is heading for college in the fall and yet rejects all of my attempts to help him with organizational skills.</p>

<p>The only thing he will do (occasionally) when he needs to remember something is to write it on his hand. He won't use a calendar, planner, computer-based organizational tools....nothing.</p>

<p>Right now, his hand says "paper due Mon morn at 10". It's almost midnight on Sunday night and he hasn't started it. He has finals Tuesday and Thursday he hasn't studied for as well as the AP English Lit test on Thursday.</p>

<p>I know you guys are right about letting it go, but it sure is hard. After a similar performance last semester, H and I told S that if he makes any C's this semester, we won't pay for his room & board in the fall (he's on scholarship for tuition & fees). We would reimburse him if he does better in the fall at college. He is accusing us of being "Asian parents" (with apologies to all of the Asian parents out there) because we won't let him make any C's. :: rolls eyes ::</p>

<p>So now I am a nervous wreck. I feel certain he'll make a C in the AP English Lit (an online class). His other 3 classes are dual-credit at the c.c. and he should at least get B's in all of those (though there is no reason in the world for him to make lower than A's). One semester of room & board will be about $6,000. He does not have $6,000. A family crisis looms.</p>

<p>Though he doesn't have any organizational skills to speak of, I still expect him to make it in college. For one thing, he'll be majoring in film production, which he loves. A lot of the classes are hands on and have shorter deadlines (less time to procrastinate or forget). He has completed most of his Gen Ed. classes dual-credit which will allow him to take lighter course loads. And lastly, he'll be attending school on an ROTC scholarship. The ROTC detachment keeps up with the cadets' grades and will be all over him if his grades fall.</p>

<p>The point of telling S he'd have to pay his own room & board if he made C's was to motivate him to work hard and not make any C's. It didn't work. It didn't seem to be any motivation at all. Maybe the only way to motivate him would be the year at Dunkin' Donuts that was suggested. Hey, I bet they'd make him an asst. manager!! <sigh!></sigh!></p>

<p>Oh, well, after this week the classes will all be over and we'll wait for the grades to come and see where we go from there. I'll keep you all posted.</p>

27

<p>My D also writes on her hand when she needs to remember something--phone numbers or other important stuff. She has many other tools but that is her favorite.</p>

<p>It really is hard to watch our kids, but ultimately, it is what really needs to happen. I wish there were an easier way, but I sure haven't found one. My S has figured out what he needs to do & how to go about getting it--hoping D does also. Watchful waiting is more difficult than trying to organize her, but it IS her life and she needs to take charge.</p>

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<p>More important than the topic of this thread is "How does your gifted slacker S stay in college?"</p>

<p>It isn't that hard to get into college. Unless your gifted slacker has a D average, there will be 4-year colleges happy to take him.The question, though, is will he have the motivation and discipline to stay in.</p>

<p>This is why I suggest that parents leave the bulk of the work about applying to colleges to their gifted slacker kids, and make parental financial contributions dependent on gpa, including in h.s. gpa. Even if they are ADD/ADHD (as is the case for sons and me), gifted people have the ability to follow through with the things that interest them. Indeed, when it comes to their interests, they tend to be able to focus above and beyond what non ADD/ADHD people are able to do.</p>

<p>If a student can't get it together to apply to college without their parents' doing the bulk of the organizing, and if a student runs into major senioritis, the student isn't ready for college.</p>

<p>Do not tear your hair out trying to get such a student into college or salvage their high school record so they keep their admission, scholarships, or even manage to graduate.</p>

<p>I speak from experience as I made those mistakes with older son, who then got an "F" average in college, dropped out, and screwed around for a couple of years before becoming responsible enough to get a job and support himself. In the meantime, my heart was broken so much that I ended up in the hospital with chest pains.</p>

<p>I applied those hard earned lessons to younger S. Fuller details are in my earlier post on this thread. Bottom line, though, is that I have lived a very happy life while S's feeling the consequences of his actions has caused him to be organized and to do well in college.</p>

<p>Also, I know lots of parents of gifted males who have dealt with the problems listed in this thread. One of my friends was quite worried 2 years ago about the fact that her son might lose his college scholarship due to his not studying. She was concerned about how she'd pay for his education if that happened. I kept telling her that she needed to let go to have him solve the problems his behavior caused.</p>

<p>S lost scholarship and also got into trouble with law due to doing something very stupid while under the influence. Mother finally learned to let go. S had to pay fines and had to get a job in order to continue with college. Mother is having a much happier life now that she realizes that she can't worry and micromanage her son so he gets through college.</p>

<p>One of older S's best friends dating from elementary school was another gifted slacker. As was the case with S, friend hated our city and state. I moved heaven and earth to help S go off to college in a state that he loved. Meanwhile, the parents of S's friend made the friend turn down out of state colleges and instead live at home and go to community college.</p>

<p>I thought friend's parents were mean until I saw that my kid dropped out of college and screwed around. His friend, meanwhile, had wonderful grades in community college then graduated from the state flagship. He now plans to go to law school, and, incidentally, is perfectly happy living by choice in our state.</p>

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<p>We have had to take the "tough love" approach with our kids as well. Our S probably could have gotten into "more prestigious schools if he was more organized in his apps but we let him own the process and the school he's at has been an extremely comfortable transition for him; he's doing much better there than he did in HS. </p>

<p>Their situation is slightly different because it's hard for the schools to sort out what part of their grades being lower than test scores would suggest is due to chronic health issues & what is due to slacking or other causes so they have to advocate for themselves and also get faculty to advocate on their behalf. While they were in HS, I helped to get the faculty to understand but made it their responsibility to keep their teachers informed & keep up. This has stood all of us in good stead so I can keep my sanity and they know it's really up to them as it will be once they are no longer attending school.</p>

<p>I'm not sure what will happen with my kids. My D was forced out of HS after her junior year because she missed too much school & wasn't able to keep up with the homework and make up all the lost "participation" that killed her grades in HS. She is doing MUCH better in community college than HS and is in the honor society. They are encouraging her to apply to scholarships (which can be used at 4-year institutions) and she's been accepted as a transfer and dual-enrollee at the flagship U, so she has lots of options that she will figure out in her own time. </p>

<p>I'm hoping she develops better organizational and study skills while living at home so she can handle the additional challenges she will face in a residential college experience.</p>

<p>I really do believe adversity and having to figure things out strengthens our kids, though in many ways its harder to watchfully wait than be engaged in actively DOING.</p>

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<p>To answer the question that is the title of your thread, there is not going to much problem in getting your slacker son into a college. There are colleges that are begging for students, and if you have the $$$, you can can get him in somewhere. The problem is getting him to do the work when he gets in and to get him to the degree.</p>

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<p>Thanks for all the feedback; lots of interesting points to consider. Several of you gave suggestions for various alternate means of convincing colleges of his potential to offset the red flag of low grades. That’s encouraging. I’d like to respond to every comment, but I think it best to focus on one point. Does S have a reasonable chance of being accepted into a college that would be a good fit for his potential? He’s dreamed of MIT since 7th grade. Even then, I felt all top tier schools would be out of the question because of his lack of drive. He’s still clinging to the romantic idea of applying to an ivy by going to their cart and pony shows. I want him to reach for more challenging programs but I don’t want to see him in a position of being rejected by every school. I need to steer him towards a realistic range of schools from reach to safeties.<br>
A few highlights of stats:
SATs - 7th grade: 630R 660M, 8th: 650R 670M
(took both eagerly, won a college course scholarship, which he did very well in a couple years later)
PSATs - 10th: 74R 80M 71W, 11th: 76R 75M 73W
SATs - 11th 650R 790M 640W
Grades:
Ninth grade - Straight As, class rank 25th of 661
10th grade - As, Bs, one C,
Last report card in 11th - One A (favorite class), three Cs, two Es, (E in one class all year)
His choice to take all honors, or honors and AP, since 7th grade and accelerate one year in math. Respectable mix of EC’s and competitions, though no sports or arts. Several state trophies, one national 2nd place.
My best guess is low grades are a combination of fear of failure and lack of study habits K-6 he was on autopilot due to lack of appropriately challenging work. He developed an arrogance about his giftedness and still feels he can ace any test without studying. He spent only a few hours preparing for each SAT he took.<br>
He’s dreaming of CMU, Columbia, Stanford. More realistically WPI, RIT, RPI, Pitt, Lehigh. Hoping Drexel can be a safety. It’s the fine line between safeties and matches that I’m struggling with.<br>
H does not want to spend money visiting schools he can’t get into with his current grades (he hoped that would be motivation, but it hasn’t worked). So, just when we should be visiting schools, we are in limbo. Also, in limbo about how best to use this summer. Money is an issue.<br>
I think if he lands in the right school with a professor or two who respect and encourage him the way his one A course teacher does, he’ll excel. If he winds up somewhere he’s unhappy with, or he doesn’t relate well to professors, he’ll pack it all in. It is interesting to read all the possible scenarios being proposed; this story could obviously end many ways. I’m interested in all your pearls of wisdom.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
SATs - 7th grade: 630R 660M, 8th: 650R 670M
(took both eagerly, won a college course scholarship, which he did very well in a couple years later)
PSATs - 10th: 74R 80M 71W, 11th: 76R 75M 73W
SATs - 11th 650R 790M 640W

[/quote]
Maybe your son can spend some time doing some SAT prep for CR. His SAT CR score seems out of line with his PSAT scores. Same for Writing.</p>

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<p>Since money is an issue, can you go to some of the college fairs coming to your area? Last week we went to the one put on by Penn, Stanford, Harvard, Duke and Georgetown (can't remember the actual name of the event at the moment). Even though d isn't interested in any of those schools at the moment, it was VERY valuable to get an insight into the schools as well as to get some general answers to parents' questions (for example what areas are the biggest challenge to incoming freshmen). Your s could meet in person with some fabulous schools for merely the cost of gas (and your time) - ours was only 10 minutes from our house.</p>

<p>Also I think this has been mentioned and I think you clarified a bit in your follow up post, but I would be careful of living your "dream" through your son, you see the potential but he has to be motivated to do the work. In fact this point was touched on at the event we attended last week, that students feel they have done all this hard work in high school and don't need to apply themselves in college.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Last week we went to the one put on by Penn, Stanford, Harvard, Duke and Georgetown (can't remember the actual name of the event at the moment).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That would be Exploring College Options. </p>

<p>Exploring</a> College Options </p>

<p>That program is still traveling to a lot of other cities. See </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/460095-spring-2008-parent-opportunities-meet-admission-officers.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/460095-spring-2008-parent-opportunities-meet-admission-officers.html&lt;/a> </p>

<p>for more details about that event and similar events.</p>

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<p>"Even then, I felt all top tier schools would be out of the question because of his lack of drive. He’s still clinging to the romantic idea of applying to an ivy by going to their cart and pony shows. I want him to reach for more challenging programs but I don’t want to see him in a position of being rejected by every school. I need to steer him towards a realistic range of schools from reach to safeties."</p>

<p>If he's willing to apply to LACs (lost of guys, including older S refused because they want to be at a place with division one sports particularly football), there are many that would accept him, including possibly giving him merit aid.</p>

<p>Younger S (gifted, slacker) has flourished at Rollins, a top LAC in the Southeast. He got merit aid (based probably mainly on his high scores, strong community service related ECs and rigorous curriculum), has a group of smart, hard working, creative friends. For the first time since middle school, he has gotten excellent grades, participated in lots of ECs ranging from martial arts to community service. </p>

<p>He himself chose this college after a gap year. </p>

<p>Very caring professors. Nicely located in a beautiful small city that's a 10 min. drive from Orlando. Beautiful campus by a lake. Lots of wonderful opportunities for students wishing to take advantage of them. This includes conferences, research opps with professors, study abroad, even a campus-wide film festival in which equipment and expertise is brought to the campus, and as an EC, students organize groups to make 5 min. films. The college is very open to students' suggestions about activities, too. Administrators look for ways of saying "yes" to students' ideas.</p>

<p>The curriculum, too, is challenging. S has had to write papers in his freshman psychology course, for instance, on subjects similar to what I was expected to do in grad school in that field.</p>

<p>Reminder that this is the S who took a gap year living at home and volunteering fulltime for Americorps after he didn't get around to applying to colege (and I refused to micromanage him). He also is having to finance his first year of college due to H and I refusing to help with his college until he proves -- by getting a 3.0 (what his scholarship requires) that he is serious about his education. His first semester grades were "A" average, and he's on track for excellent grades this semester.</p>

<p>The maturity and awareness of the real world that he gained during his gap year paid off, and I encourage you to consider this for your son, too. I believe that S's having done a productive gap year also helped him get merit aid. Americorps is an excellent program that can be a perfect place for smart late bloomers.</p>

<p>I suggest that you use the summer by having your S work a fulltime job. It's amazing how much young people learn about themselves and the world (including the importance of developing organizational skills) by doing a job -- any job. Even being a supermarket bagger would teach him a lot. Colleges also look very favorably upon students who have worked. </p>

<p>Both of my sons worked during h.s. Our rule was that they had to save or invest half of their money for their college education. The rest, they could use as they chose (following house rules, of course). The summer before college, they were allowed to use the money they'd saved to buy things for college, something that both took great pride in doing with their money instead parents' funds.</p>

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<p>To the OP: I'm pretty familiar with SAT and PSAT scores gained by children in that age range, and your son is definitely in the top group of young test-takers, with a good chance of reaching peak SAT scores through little more preparation than reading a lot at leisure. But, yes, establishing good grades would be very helpful. The downward trend line for his high school grades is worrisome, and could be wholly explained by lack of practiced study habits. If he likes to read independently, I'd definitely recommend he start with Carol Dweck's Mindset, and then if he wants a big reading challenge that will help his development a lot, have him try </p>

<p>Amazon.com:</a> The Cambridge Handbook of Expertise and Expert Performance: K. Anders Ericsson,Neil Charness,Paul J. Feltovich,Robert R. Hoffman: Books </p>

<p>which has a lot of separate articles he can dip into for inspiration. </p>

<p>His college application list may as well include any college of interest to him, but he absolutely must devote careful thought to finding a sure-bet safety college. If your friendly state university has an honors program with a rolling admission cycle, that would be especially good to have on the application list. If he gets in, he has one good result that may meet his needs. If he DOESN'T get in (which means it was never a "safety" in the first place), and you know that early enough, maybe he will be motivated to reconsider his college application list. But, sure, keep some "reaches" on his list. Some colleges may like admitting someone with test scores like that.</p>

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<p>First, I would stop worrying about standardized test scores and EC's for college purposes. Given the student's transcript, any increase in the student's test scores would simply be gilding the lily and would be unlikely to add appreciably to either admission or scholarship chances. Moreover, at the level of selectivity where admission is even plausible, any ordinary type of EC is likely to be completely irrelevant.</p>

<p>Second, given the student's grades, tokenadult's suggestion that this student might be admitted to an honors program at a state university strikes me as completely fanciful. Similarly, to be frank, schools at the level of RPI or WPI are out of the question. Moreover, even if the student was able to be admitted at one of those schools, he would be unprepared to handle the brutal workload. Further, given the huge disparity between his standardized test scores and performance in school, it is difficult to predict how any even moderately selective school would react to his application, and whether merit aid might be available. The only way to get a sense would be to call the individual school's admissions office and ask.</p>

<p>Third, there are, it seems to me there two possibilities here. Either the student has simply lost motivation or there is some sort of major difficulty here. (The potential of drugs straddles the line). If the former, the only thing that I can think of is some variation of Northstarmom's solution or a swift kick in the butt. If the second, hopefully it is something that a GOOD professional can hopefully help the student figure out and resolve. Unfortunately, that is likely to be very expensive.</p>

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<p>"If the second, hopefully it is something that a GOOD professional can hopefully help the student figure out and resolve. Unfortunately, that is likely to be very expensive."</p>

<p>Maybe not depending on their insurance. It's also far easier to address these kind of problems when a student is still a minor than after they turn 18. It's even harder after they leave high school and their parents' roof.</p>

<p>I used to work in the substance abuse field, and also wonder about whether the OP's student is using drugs or alcohol. I have seen even recovering alcoholics/addicts who were top professionals in the recovery field be fooled by their kids who were using drugs behind their backs.</p>

<p>I totally agree with EMM1's post about colleges where the OP's student could be accepted. Junior year also is the most important year when it comes to what gpa colleges consider. A student who is getting bad grades junior year will have a hard time getting into any kind of good college. </p>

<p>Still, there would be some 4-year colleges that would accept him. Those are probably going to be low tier colleges that you'd have to pay a lot of money for your student to attend.</p>

<p>I think, however, he'd be better off doing a gap year and working fulltime while paying rent or going to community college fulltime on his own dime. He doesn't seem ready for college, and I think it's unrealistic to expect colleges to light a fire in a student who's right now on such a downslide. The colleges commensurate with his potential know that right now, your son would be a bad bet. They also have an overabundance of highly qualified applicants who have lived up to their potential, so it's highly unlikely they'd accept your son.</p>

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<p>Does S have a reasonable chance of being accepted into a college that would be a good fit for his potential?</p>

<p>----I do not think that is the proper approach. I think you more likely have to ask "Does S have a plan for success at a college likely to address his current level of achievement and potential for future achievement?" </p>

<p>----Boys develop later but something - the declining grades are evidence - is going on here beyond the late bloomer curve. The investment in the outcome is not present based on what you've articulated. </p>

<p>I think if he lands in the right school with a professor or two who respect and encourage him the way his one A course teacher does, he’ll excel. If he winds up somewhere he’s unhappy with, or he doesn’t relate well to professors, he’ll pack it all in. </p>

<p>----As I tell my DS1 and DS2, and will tell DD1 in a few short years, we do not always get to select our teachers, our bosses or our co-workers. We live in the 'real' world, not the ideal one, and we must work with what we are given. Sure, there are 'ideal' teachers - and kids will do well with those - but by college they must learn to deal with all types of educators in all circumstances just as they will in the work world. </p>

<p>And success - in large measure - is the ability to deal with the circumstances with which we would rather NOT in a productive way that does not compromise our true selves. </p>

<p>Try - it seems to me - to get the DS to realize that the consequences of packing it all in fall on him, not on the bad teacher.</p>

40

<p>
[quote]
suggestion that this student might be admitted to an honors program at a state university strikes me as completely fanciful.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree the odds are long. On the other hand, the student has to apply somewhere. Really crucial for him is to apply somewhere decent early enough to get an early read on his chances. (Applying somewhere with a "rolling" process should help with that.) Bad grades make for bad chances. Once the student sees the result of the first application, maybe some recognition of reality will set in. Meanwhile, apply boldly for the first few applications, in part to make sure that there are some early rejections to go with any early acceptances that luck may provide.</p>