<p>I saw that phrase on the "B+" student thread and it so perfectly described my senior that I ran upstairs to be sure he hadn't been kidnapped!</p>
<p>How does one assist a brilliant kid who is unmotivated by grades to put together the best application possible? I don't mean "kinda smart/kinda lazy", I mean more actually brilliant, original thinker with flawless test scores, amazing writing skills and analytical skills, voracious interest in almost everything, but quite literally disinterested in grades (to the point where he never even asks what his marks are in a class/on a project/etc.)? </p>
<p>He stumbles accidently into various honors (National Merit Scholar semi finalist, AP National Scholar, Peace essay winner, etc), but doesn't pursue them. Attended TASP this last summer (the essay topics intrigued him enough to bother applying). Attends a mediocre public school in a poor state. Parents are college free (but well read, we like to think...). </p>
<p>On his own put together the most challenging curriculum that anyone in his school had ever done last year (5 IB classes, 3 Online AP classes, 2 additional self study APs,-- scored 5s on all AP exams), but received 7 Bs and only 2 As on his transcript. On the other hand- he is conducting some weird research into bacterial fuel cells just to satisfy his own curiosity.</p>
<p>He will not need financial aid, but will be first generation college.</p>
<p>DierdreTours, I think you should consider yourself fortunate to have such a talented kid. He sounds like the type who'll "stumble" into a career that interests him - but it might be on his own terms and by his own - possibly bumpy - path. </p>
<p>My kids are more malleable but less unusual, and I think they come with less stress. Good luck.</p>
<p>My frustration is that I want everything to be open to him--- but I am afraid that his indifference to official grades is going to handicap him in the college application process. His grades aren't bad, they just don't match up to his potential..... In a school where is (according to his teachers- the most intellectually gifted kid they have encountered) he is not even close to the top of the class (if AP/IB are weighted, he would be at or near top, but that isn't done in his school).</p>
<p>He sounds like a great kid, and I suspect he's going to have a great life and do great things. The personality traits you mention sound more like learning for learning's sake rather than "doesn't give a crap." People who learn for learning's sake are rare and wonderful. I'm not sure you are going to be able to change him and I'm not sure you should if you could! His college search and application process might look much different than you think it should, and you can think about how to work with what he has, in terms of habits. Good luck. Grades aren't everything, ranking isn't everything, and I predict he'll end up in the right place for him.</p>
<p>So are you worried that he won't get into as good a college as he can? </p>
<p>Because I bet he will.</p>
<p>His application will show his love of learning thru the ECs he pursues (like the research he is doing), his schedule compared to others from his school, his recs, his genius thru his test scores, and his great writing and analytical skills via the essay. </p>
<p>Here at UMCP, there are all kinds of kids. Including brilliant ones. We have the #2 comp sci program in the nation, right behind MIT. And we're up there in a ton of other fields, as well.</p>
<p>Lots of public schools will be dying to have your son, and so will lots of great privates. To be honest, the difference between the most selective schools and good ones isn't going to be that great for a person like him. Take a lesson from your son's book and don't let the trappings of the rankings and big names fool you...you will be able to find a school that fits him :). </p>
<p>There are a lot of doors open for your son if he continues to love to pursue knowledge as he does.</p>
<p>Sometimes people come "into their own" later than high school. These boys sound like my older brother. He still reads an amazing amount (close to 60 yrs old.) He didn't go to a top school, but had a much better experience in his college than I did in my "top" school. He graduated magna, and went to grad school. I think the fit will be important for such a person.</p>
<p>In a large school, where the personal attention is nil, and things are structured, it would not sound ideal. In a small school, with a real collegial atmosphere, he might find the right motivation.</p>
<p>National Merit Scholar semi finalist - this is automatic based on PSAT score, that everybody takes, you do not do anything else to pursue it. Being finalists worth some Scholarship $$.
AP National Scholar - is not worth anything.</p>
<p>What worth whole tons of Merit scholarship money is GPA = 4.0 UW. Also in some states (for example, Ohio) being top of the class worth $3700 in any college in Ohio including private. </p>
<p>On a note of motivating - nothing you can do. My S did not care about his grades, and I realized that it is futile to motivate. We paid whole cost of his college and living expenses out of our paychecks.
I could not peel my D. from her homework - everything had to be done beyond any kind of reasonable standards. With her experience after graduation I learned that GPA = 4.0 means a lot of $$. We are talking about the same conditions, the same parents.....</p>
<p>I also worry about him getting lost in a very large school-- Not socially, he is wildly popular with girls and has a group of close guy friends-- But more organizationly-- His indifference leads to him not bothering to turn in things at times (hence the B grades, rather than A's-- frankly, without prodding from his teachers to dot i's and cross t's, his grades would probably be C's). I think he needs a small, supportive environment. He wants the broadest possible smorgesboard of classes-- since he is interested in everything from foreign policy to engineering to biology and environmental science.</p>
<p>Currently-- He wants to not go to college next year. Instead, he thinks he will be able to talk his way into lab time at our local university in order to pursue his bactierial fuel cell research. I don't think this is a realistic plan.</p>
<p>Just a note about your S's research--if he's about to invent a fuel cell that will save our planet... maybe spending some time on it wouldn't be a bad idea.</p>
<p>Just kidding.</p>
<p>Sort of.</p>
<p>Sounds like a great guy and, although unconventional, he will really do well in life no matter his college path. There are several colleges that award merit $ for NMF--like Arizona State (full ride and a wonderful small honors college) and USC (half tuition) among others.</p>
<p>Is it possible that he could attend a university and pursue his lab research at the same time? There are also colleges that offer praxis programs, so that you can use outside experiences (such as campaigning for a politician, or lab research) to qualify as credit towards a major, with approval.</p>
<p>For the record, college professors can be pretty lax. In nearly ALL of my classes, I have found it unbelievably easy to ask for an extension on papers and other assignments. Also, assignments are less frequent; one to two papers during a semester, plenty of time to get your thoughts in order and learn what you want to. My profs have cared less about me dotting my i's and crossing my t's so much as they are interested in me learning and synthesizing my ideas.</p>
<p>I'm pretty sure there are lots of good colleges out there who will admit your son. You could always try applying to Reed; out there, students find out their grades last minute or never, apparently; they've got to go and specially ask for them. Instead, classes are all focused on the learning; professors give no feedback about grades. Apparently average graduating GPA is a 2.9 (from several years ago) but people are understanding about the uniqueness of Reed's style, and recognize that it's still an excellent education. (Reed is a small LAC in Oregon, so it would be the supportive environment you're looking for.) As for rankings, I believe it's decently high on Newsweek's top LACs.</p>
<p>You said that he was motivated to apply to a college where the essays interested him...I remember that St. Mary's College of Maryland had pretty unusual essay topics, but the rest of my college apps used the Common App. And on the Common App, you can pick one of five topics or you can submit your own topic. So, I used the St. Mary's College essay for all of my other colleges. You could always try that route; finding an unusual topic that he's interested in, and then have him apply to the rest of his colleges with it. And really, the essay is the hardest part. If he's wildly popular, then he's probably got some decent social skills, so if you apply to LACs the interview's in the bag. Interviews are highly recommended at LACs, because something like, "I love learning for the sake of learning" really comes across then. And trust me they loooove to hear that. LACs love to fill out their classes with unique kids who don't necessarily fit the academic mold, but whom they know will bring a certain intellectual diversity and who show promise in succeeding at their college. Even if they say that like 95% of their applicants have a 3.6 or a 3.9 and median SAT scores of 2300 and that they don't like to admit lower, don't believe them :p Just apply.</p>
<p>
[quote]
He sounds like a great kid, and I suspect he's going to have a great life and do great things. The personality traits you mention sound more like learning for learning's sake rather than "doesn't give a crap." People who learn for learning's sake are rare and wonderful. I'm not sure you are going to be able to change him and I'm not sure you should if you could! His college search and application process might look much different than you think it should, and you can think about how to work with what he has, in terms of habits. Good luck. Grades aren't everything, ranking isn't everything, and I predict he'll end up in the right place for him.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I also have one...and I'm thinking of embroidering the thread title on a pillow for myself.</p>
<p>When S1 was in 6th grade and we were trying to convince him of the importance of grades, homework and testing, he actually said to us, "I know I know it, so why do I have to convince the teacher I know it?"</p>
<p>He went on to survive high school (with plenty of report cards noted "homework missing") and get pretty good grades -- probably because the teachers recognized the learning that was going on, even if the actual tests weren't perfect. His Calculus teacher used to ask him to hold his questions until AFTER the AP test; and then they could go off on tangents.</p>
<p>Anyways, he did not aspire to any prestigious universities (much to H's chagrin) and we also worried that he wasn't reaching his potential. But we (well, mostly I) have come to terms with the fact that it has become HIS life. He's at his dream school, studying what he wants and NOT studying what he doesn't want (make sense?); doing research with profs; perfecting his juggling skills; making a ton of friends. His brilliance makes him unique and, I think, makes him happy. But he never has felt the need to flaunt it. It's just who he is.</p>
<p>And most importantly, he is the most stress-free, no-pressure person I have ever met. I think it comes from a confidence in his abilities and absolutely no need to compete...so he's never dissatisfied with his accomplishments or his place in the universe. I envy him.</p>
<p>Your son sounds like an ideal candidate for the highly selective College of Creative Studies at UC Santa Barbara, described as "A Graduate School for Undergraduates." I mention it because my nephew was there in physics: he was doing graduate-level research starting in his freshman year. As I recall, he had very different graduation requirements, a lot fewer classes not related to his field. Some of the students there specialized from the first year on. They have programs in chemistry and mathematics as well. Check it out. </p>
<p>Op, your son will be fine and will either do great things with his life or be a happy and contented human being who inspires other people to do great things with their lives.</p>
<p>I wouldn't push college for next year if he's not ready. If he can come up with a viable plan to keep himself challenged and occupied, if he's being fiscally responsible (i.e. covering his own expenses) and has made sure he's still covered by your health insurance or has his own... what's the problem???</p>
<p>There are a lot of kids in the "brilliant" camp that are, shall we say politely, "inwardly focused" in that they are not attuned to the traditional measures of success like grades. </p>
<p>Truth is, though that most kids like this (like the OP's) are a real gamble for a college that cares about retention, because many of them (but by no means all) do not find the drudgery of some kinds to college work to their taste (things like core or distribution courses outside their areas of interest). So these kids have a habit of getting distracted and failing or dropping out. </p>
<p>But the curious thing is that many of them also find their intellectual love in college and blossom. We as parents just can't predict. </p>
<p>The beauty of our higher ed system is that kids have so many chances to show their stuff. They can transfer after one or two undergrad years. They can move up for grad school. They can drop out and return. There are many paths.</p>
<p>I think the main things to keep in mind are:</p>
<ul>
<li> it is his college education. He'll pursue what he wants, when he's ready</li>
<li> top colleges will not take a chance on such a kid (but you knew that already?)</li>
<li> many state U will, especially those who like NM semifinalists.</li>
<li> he has lots of company, as you can see from posts like archiemom's.</li>
</ul>
<p>FWIW, I was one of these kids in HS. Got into an out of state State U that was decent, where I sputtered along for four years (for example, aced the first o-chem exam soph year to prove to myself I could do it, then coasted to B's the rest of the year). Then three years in the Army (just missing Viet Nam) where I grew up. Got out and barely got into grad school at UCSB in science, realized I needed to do things "their" way, got my PhD, post-doc for two years, then an MBA from a top 5 program. So yea, second chances do happen....</p>
<p>Surely any kid who has gone to TASP is not going to have trouble finding his way into college.</p>
<p>Maybe you need to find a school with an intriguing essay topic -- or, how about a school like Olin, which is all about solving interesting problems like the one with the fuel cell??</p>
<p>deidretours I think it was my post you are refering to. My son is brilliant but barely made it into the top 40% of his class in high school. He was 94th percentile for the Sat, no studying and wouldn't retake it. He got a letter from MIT, after PSAT, asking him to apply but said no because he didn't want to take SAT subject tests. He is an excellant writer and has had amazing comments from teachers and professors saying how impressed they were. As I said he attends our most selective state school and has done okay there. We actually cheered this spring when he got a 3.0 for the first time. On the other hand he was selected by the head of the Dept. in his major to work on a project this summer. The project also involves the head of another Dept. and a local company interested in what they are developing, and is also connected to a huge federal gov. agency. I belive he has had this opportunity because, although his grades don't always show it, his innate intelligance shines through. His college is about 5,000 students and I believe he would have been lost at a larger school but has found a niche for himself because of the smaller size. He is set to graduate and I pray he doesn't have any humanities classes left, he loathes them and thinks they are boring and stupid. He doesn't think he needs to be well rounded. As for your question about applications he just presented what he had and, although I never read it, probably wrote a killer essay which I think must have had something to do with his acceptance. How to motivate this type of student is beyond me, but I wouldn't trade his wit and charm for any 4.0 or deans list. I believe he will have a happy successful life, as long as no one makes him go to the theater or read a book he hates. lol</p>
<p>Thanks for all the reassuring comments. I am not particularly concerned about his going to a "name" school and I view the barrage of mail from Harvard, etc. with a real grain of salt (yes, his test scores are outstanding-- 99% in every area, on every test, every time), but I don't think the ivies are going to take a student with more Bs than A's by a 2 to 1 margin.</p>
<p>I was surprised no one commented on his hope of getting lab time at a university at the age of 17 without being an actual student there (or anywhere)-- Does this really happen? I thought it was highly, highly unlikely-- Is it really possible to talk your way into lab time?</p>
<p>DeirdreTours, do you want him to get lab time in a university?</p>
<p>I'm not clear on what you want for him -- to go to college, even if he would prefer a gap year? or...?</p>
<p>If he wants to work in a lab, clearly he can send out inquiries and see what turns up.. you never know.</p>
<p>I suggested Olin because it looks for problem solving students. If your son likes to solve problems, perhaps this will intrigue him. (Students apply, and those being considered for admission are invited to come for a weekend and work on a team to solve a technical problem.)</p>
<p>As for his not being concerned about grades -- you may want to look for posts or exchange pms with WashDad. He also has a son who is extremely capable, pursued interesting projects on his own, but was not especially concerned about his GPA.</p>