How does gifted slacker S get into college?

Parents Forum
41

<p>"He developed an arrogance about his giftedness and still feels he can ace any test without studying."</p>

<p>Upon rereading the OP's second post, this passage jumped out at me. the first step is for S to understand that his "giftedness" (I hate that word) per se doesn't mean squat to anyone else--that a) the only thing that ultimately matters is performance b) that he hasn't been performing and c) that while you are willing to help him with whatever issues he might have, he has to take responsibility for his lcak of performance and take whatever steps are necessary to fix the problem.</p>

42

<p>"On the other hand, the student has to apply somewhere. Really crucial for him is to apply somewhere decent early enough to get an early read on his chances."</p>

<p>I disagree with this perspective. My view would be that unless the student shows some signs of getting it together, the parent should not pay for college at all.</p>

43

<p>This is probably not going to be a popular post. I'm going to stick my neck out. Most schools do not want to accept a student based on their potential when that potential is not based on their work. There are some schools out there that do this..but not many. The reality is that many schools will look at those high standardized test scores and wonder WHY this student didn't do well in high school. There will be the concern that this student might have the same sort of issues (not completing or handing in work, etc) that there were in high school with even MORE possible obstacles (attendance, no home monitoring, no necessity for feedback unless you ask, no one hounding you to do the work). </p>

<p>In my opinion, the best way for the student to get into college is to PROVE himself. In other words, he needs to show that he is capable of doing college work. Right now, he isn't showing that he's capable of doing high school work well. </p>

<p>My suggestion would be to do a community college route and get TERRIFIC (up to potential) grades for at least one year. Prove that he can do the work. If he does this, he will be showing that he is capable of college work.</p>

<p>We certainly monitored our kids in high school. We basically told them that their options would become more and more limited the poorer they did. Neither of them were all around stars but they worked to their potential and actually did the work that was expected of them. </p>

<p>If it were me, I would be worrying about how this student was going to approach college. I'm not one for wasting my money, and unless this young man showed me that he was a student, I would not be looking for more expensive and competitive places to spend my money. He hasn't really proven himself. In fact...it almost looks like he's trying not to.</p>

<p>Re: being gifted...most gifted kids are smart enough to understand that they need to do the work. I'm not saying he's not gifted..I'm saying he should be DOING THE WORK....and doing it well.</p>

<p>Now....having said all that....has anyone figured out why this seemingly bright student is basically b***ing off his classes and school work? This needs to be done BEFORE he goes away to college.</p>

44

<p>Your problem isn't getting him into college. Your problem is getting him to adulthood; college may or many not be part of that process, but if it were my kid I'd stop worrying about RPI vs. Lehigh (they both attract workaholic, up- at- dawn types of kids, particularly in engineering which I surmise is what your son is interested in given his list of schools) and start focusing on what he's going to need to be a productive, happy, self-sufficient adult.</p>

<p>The world is filled with successful and happy grown-ups who couldn't score a 700 on an SAT if their lives depended on it; but they pay their bills, file their taxes, put up with stupid bosses and moronic co-workers because that's what it means to be a grown up sometimes. Using your son's "giftedness" to explain away his lack of motivation and work ethic and ability to deliver even when it's something that isn't important to him isn't helping him- it's hurting him and it's hurting you.</p>

<p>The world is also filled with people who did college later on after they appreciated the need for education, or after they knew themselves better, or after they could afford it, or after they slogged away at a menial job for a while and then realized that all that work ethic stuff isn't just blather.</p>

<p>There's no shame in not going to college at age 18. I think it would be a shame for your son to end up somewhere just to get parked in college; surely he's smart enough to realize that getting in is the easy part- making it through is the tough part.</p>

<p>Why not sit down and let him know that you are ceding responsibility for his next step in life to him. You'll be loving and supportive of whatever options he wants to consider- community college, military, working, gap year, whatever-- but that you can no longer "own" his performance and the consequences thereof. Explain that most kids in college continue on their parents health insurance, so whatever plan he comes up with needs to make sure that he's got at least major medical to cover a catastrophic illness or accident; explain that although the family's resources aren't infinite, you want to help launch him to the best of your ability without losing your house or impairing your ability to retire... and then sit back.</p>

<p>Post here, get yourself counseling, take long walks with a friend... but cut the apron strings and let him figure out what he wants to do when he graduates. I don't see enough evidence here of a kid who will start to hustle in college- even with the most inspiring professors, even with the most supportive administration. Every college has its requirements- did he ever look at the MIT core curriculum while he was dreaming of it??? All those required courses; some taught by Nobel laureates and some taught by drones.... but all required. This is life as a grown up.</p>

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<p>Haven't read all the entries in this thread, so excuse me if repititive- but has your son ever been evaluated for ADHD? I have known some brilliant kids who cannot stay on task; they test well but have difficulty with staying on top of courses. They also sometimes present "arrogant", which is their way of coping with the pain and frustration of not being able to do as well as tests would predict. They flourish once their ADHD is addressed. Best of luck.</p>

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<p>I'm not meaning this to negate all the good and cautionary advice above, but for a success story--S's good friend slacked his way through HS with quite a few C's and D's. He did well enough on SATs (not nearly like the OP's kid, though) and in his math/science/computer courses, to get into RIT for comp Sci. S just got back from a weekend visiting him up there--says he is thriving, has friends just like him (computer geeks), and loves his classes. His mom is a good friend of mine ,and reports he is doing very well. Sometimes getting into a school full of one's "people" can make all the difference, and RIT, or something like it, may still be in the OP's kid's realm of possibilities.</p>

47

<p>wearymom,
what was his 11th grade psat score? </p>

<p>i noticed that the 10th grade psat score is very good. there are threads on cc which post the state cutoffs for national merit recognition (commended, semi-finalist, and finalist).</p>

<p>since he's now only a junior, i'd suggest he take the ACT 2 or 3 times since his highest composite score on it might exceed the SAT equivalent (and open some doors for him in the admissions process). </p>

<p>what i think i hear you saying is that the school he is at now may possibly not be meeting his needs. maybe it's worthwhile to at least consider moving him to another school (private) for his senior year or look at other options like homeschooling, online schools, or dual enrollment community college classes, etc. ........and be sure to involve him in making that decision as others have said......"for him to take ownership."<br>
where he is at does not appear to be a good fit and he is not thriving.</p>

48

<p>
[quote]
good friend slacked his way through HS with quite a few C's and D's. He did well enough on SATs (not nearly like the OP's kid, though) and in his math/science/computer courses, to get into RIT for comp Sci.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's an interesting anecdote in the context of this thread. Taking computer science at RIT is not a bad initial opportunity for a college student.</p>

49

<p>I think it helped that our high school, though not so great in many ways, has an excellent Comp Sci program, which this student did really good at. The Cs and Ds were quarterly grades, I don't think he ended any classes with D averages, but probably many with Cs (again, math,science and computers he did fine at.)</p>

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<p>If you don't want him to be blanketly turned down by all of his colleges, I would suggest discussing his situation with admissions privately before going through the whole hullaboloo of visiting, intensifying interest and applying. His grades trends are going to be a red flag to most if not all of the colleges on his list. His best bet if everyone thinks that college would turn things around, is to take the summer and next year at an alternative program and show that he can do it getting some super grades. He needs to show that he has it in him still and that it is the mundane routine of highschool that is a problem with him and that college is a whole different story. </p>

<p>There are kids who do not do well at school and still get into top schools, but those I have seen, are truly exceptional who have done things so extraordinary surpassing even those who have done well gradewise and had like test scores.</p>

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<p>I have a similar situation and am trying to glean useful advice from your posts. My son was doing fine in school until this year (11th grade); he is taking 5 AP classes which is at least 2 too many. He has not risen to the occasion. Of his 6 academic classes, he'll probably end up with 1 low A, 3 Bs and 2 Cs. His GPA will still be around 3.5 or 3.6 due to weighting of AP classes. </p>

<p>He took the SAT in December and got a 2010. He took it again in March and got a 2120. I said, "Congratulations. Now your SAT is too high for your GPA."</p>

<p>The wrinkle in my story is that he has Asperger's Syndrome and is very ADD. It's always been a race against time for him to get his homework done before his meds wear off. After they wear off, he becomes The Most Distractable Person on the Planet...he turns in extremely short papers that it took him hours to write because his is so distractable. Next year he'll have the 1st period of the day off. I'll be interested in seeing if that helps-he'll be taking his meds later, so they will last longer into the evening.</p>

<p>Last week it dawned on me that I could not send him away to college with the study habits and organizational skills he currently has. Of the 10 schools on his "list" 1 is a reach, 1 is a match and the rest are safeties. He'll have no problem getting in and he'll probably get merit aid at several. But I fear he'll lose it due to poor grades.</p>

<p>I emailed a long list of people at the school, saying that he was dismissed from special services in 9th grade but that he needs for someone who understands the Aspergerian mind to work one on one on study and organizational skills. He's never had help in this area although he's always needed it. Improving his grades senior year won't help him get into college, but it would make me more willing to send him to college.</p>

52

<p>"he'll probably end up with 1 low A, 3 Bs and 2 Cs. His GPA will still be around 3.5 or 3.6 due to weighting of AP classes. "</p>

<p>I would have been happy if my sons' grades had been like that in 11th grade. Your son has a very solid B average, which is fine.</p>

<p>Both of my sons had some Ds for quarter grades. Older S graduated with about a 2.9 unweighted in an IB program. Younger S graduated with about a 2.5 unweighted in an IB/AP program, but had grades so low second semester of senior year that he almost didn't graduate. But were National Merit Commended with SATs ranging from the 98th-99th percentile.</p>

<p>Neither was amenable to utilizing help with organizational skills including help that we paid big bucks to obtain for them. Younger S got it together on his own when he went to a college that he was paying for and wanted to be at due to their academics. </p>

<p>Older S never thought he had a problem, and continues to think that college is a waste of time, so didn't return to college after flunking out due to his lack of class attendance and lack of doing papers and exams. He does, however, function well enough to support himself in an office job where he has gotten raises and is up for a promotion.</p>

<p>From what I've seen with my sons, they will rise to the occasion if they want to do what is required. I don't think it's the tier of college that they go to that matters. I think what matters is whether they are motivated enough to do the work that is required. </p>

<p>The 2nd tier college that older S chose to go to had work that would have been extremely easy for him. Even in the honors college, which he was in, the classes had things that he had learned in high school. Still, he flunked those classes because he didn't do the work.</p>

<p>Younger S's tier 2 college has assignments that were the equivalent of assignments I had in grad school, and I think that some of his papers require more thought than some that I wrote at as an undergraduate at an Ivy.</p>

<p>It may help to expect your son to contribute financially toward his college, and to expect him to obtain and maintain a certain gpa in order to get your financial help and/or go to college away from home.</p>

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<p>'i noticed that the 10th grade psat score is very good. there are threads on cc which post the state cutoffs for national merit recognition (commended, semi-finalist, and finalist)."</p>

<p>The 11th grade scores are posted, and appear to qualify for NMSF. However, I believe that the money typically comes with being a finalist, which requires "high academic performance" in high school. Another opportunity lost.</p>

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<p>Some colleges give small scholarships to students who are NM Commended. You can Google and search CC's archives to find some. One is St. Olaf.</p>

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<p>Northstarmom, finding a summer job is priority 1 after the AP exams are over. We're all trying to figure out a job from which he won't be fired. He doesn't read non-verbal cues well, and is quite literal-a couple of summers ago, he was almost fired from a volunteer position! (Supervisor told him to do X, when she really wanted him to do X, Y and Z; he couldn't read he nonvisual cues that she was unhappy with him.) I'm thinking that a boring, menial job would be perfect, to show him the old "This Is What Your Life Will Be Like If You Don't Do Better In School." The thing is, I don't know if he CAN improve without help.</p>

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<p>If he can do things like design web pages maybe he can volunteer and design web pages for nonprofits and similar organizations. This may also lead to his getting paid to design web pages for businesses, etc.</p>

<p>Have you read any of the books about strengths by a guy name "Buckingham"? Could help you identify your S's strengths and think of positions that would allow him to play to them. "Strength finder" is one such book. Another is "Soar with your strengths."</p>

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<p>I'll look into the books. I think he's thought of a good actual career that would be good for him....few if any office politics, relative job security, some degree of intellectual challenge. But he needs some pre-career jobs where he learns how to be an employee. We learned a lot from the almost getting fired from the volunteer job experience; after that we told him to ask how he was doing on a regular basis and to ask if there was anything he wasn't doing that he should be doing. He needs more practical experiences like that so we can figure out what other challenges he is going to face in the working world.</p>

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<p>Missypie, has your son been getting some social skills therapy to help him with dealing with co-workers? In his case, it sounds like it's not motivation, but Asperger's, that is holding him back.</p>

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<p>The school provides no special services whatsoever. We've been "out of the system" since his freshman year; the only thing they did for him in 9th grade was to give him a career interest survey (it wasn't even an aptitude assessment-just interest.) They hate to give special services to anyone in the G/T-pre-AP-AP classes. Last week I finally woke up and decided to demand a specific service.</p>

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<p>I went back and read this post again. This sentence caught my attention. I do believe that many very bright students have this "approach" at one point or another. BUT many also figure out that this is not universally true and pony up when they need to.</p>

<p>This student has a lot of inate potential, it seems. However, if he doesn't do the work, and thinks he doesn't need to (for whatever reasons), this will not bode well for him. In EVERY college program of study there are going to be courses that are "less interesting" to those who are majoring in that course of study. However, reality is that even those courses must be passed to get a degree.</p>