<p>Zogoto, people believe Holy Books are true because of faith in their Word and in God. If they want to do that, more power to them! And if they feel that the Holy Book makes them moral, then I say, let them have that Book. Don't try to argue with them that it is false. Of course some people will try to push the Book on others, but it is only because they think the Book is the source of morals. And if they believe that, great. In the end, no one can really persuade you but yourself. So people who tell you that God is essential can't hurt you. Only you can have power over your beliefs. No one can push anything onto you without your agreement.</p>
<p>Zogoto, you obviously are an atheist because it "makes sense". You are an atheist because you believe that it is too hard to fathom God. You can't scientifically test religion, true however religion isn't science. Science isn't religion. It is like mixing oil and water.</p>
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Are you a spokesperson for atheists worldwide? Have you met, and spoken to, a majority of atheists? If not, what gives you the right to make assumptions?
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<p>I am not atheist, but I do understand their mentality.And why would I waste my time trying to understand immature 16 year old atheists?</p>
<p>Yeah Zogoto, people don't believe in God because it makes sense. They do it as faith. Of course religion doesn't make sense: it isn't supposed to. Some of us, including me and probably you, want everything in life to "make sense" in a logical, rational sense, so God doesn't really fit into that. But to others there is a realm acceptable to them outside of reason, and that is faith, as Justinian so rightly pointed out. So don't judge religion through a rationalist lens, and don't judge rationalism/science through a religious one.</p>
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<p>Such an abstract being having a son that takes on manifest form? That is pretty clownish.</p>
<p>And what is the bible really, or for that matter, any religious text that preaches anything other than a fulfilling way of life? These self righteous texts are "justified" only by saying that God has justified them, yet the only justification for the God that they offer is his role as a premise in the text. Quite circular indeed.</p>
<p>The bible, justifying god, is only justified by the god it justifies.
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<p>I have come to understand that faith is impervious and incomprehensible to the intellect. They are quite different approaches to perceiving the world. Logic is inherently satisfying to human beings (perhaps moreso to some than to others), and it is truly difficult to understand how another person can hold a position that seems to directly contradict a sound argument. I do not have faith, and so I can only guess at its nature, but it is clear that, to those who have faith, it is somehow more convincing than reason.</p>
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<p>I am an atheist, I suppose, in the sense that I lack a belief in any sort of 'higher power.' What do I believe about life after death? I think that death is like sleep, except that one does not wake up again. Once one dies, there is nothing, and that nothing never ends. The biological structure that supports the consciousness no longer functions, and so the consciousness cannot exist.</p>
<p>And indeed, I do fear death. It's a very frightening concept - the end of everything: my personal identity, my thoughts, my memories, my relationships with peaple, my perception of the Universe. Once I am dead, reality may as well not exist anymore. I actually think that atheism is inherently unnatural for human beings; for most people it is certainly a very distressing worldview.</p>
<p>jimbob, I do believe in God. I don't agree with you that God cannot make sense in a rational framework. Save for a few minor details, for example, Jesus was truly sinless (he broke the Sabbath though, so there is conflict unless you believe he was really the son of God). Justinian claims to be religious but provides no real reason for being so. Religion is an individual thing. It sounds like Justinian's mom or dad or something just told him about God and told him to believe in it, so he does so blindly. That is not only wrong in an earthly sense, but wrong in a spiritual/religious sense as well since you are betraying what God wants you to do by claiming you "know" God when you really don't.</p>
<p>EDIT: I actually guess I'm sort of an agnostic. I do feel like there is a God, but agree with NOTHING that has been put forward about him (like religions and stuff).</p>
<p>Its interesting how God is referred as "Him," gender-wise.</p>
<p>Well most people do that since the Bible does so, but it really doesn't matter. </p>
<p>Justinian, if I wrote a book and claimed to be divinely inspired (i.e., God told me to do it), and the book said that to murder was ok and in fact NECESSARY for salvation, would you believe it? Would you murder? Why would you have faith of the Bible over my book?</p>
<p>Zogoto, I find it quite comical when you say I kinda believe in God, but am sort of an agnostic. Anyway, Zogoto, I have said over and over again that I believe in God because of my own personal decision. When I read the Bible, the words of the book uplift me. I have a personal relationship with him not because I was told to do so, but because I WISH to do so. I am Christian because I chose to accept Christ.</p>
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I am not atheist, but I do understand their mentality.And why would I waste my time trying to understand immature 16 year old atheists?
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Business_Boi, I find it interesting that you call me immature, yet you yourself don't even have the--yes--maturity to back up your claims with anything but silly generalizations and ad hominem attacks. However, I realize that trying to debate with you is a futile exercise, and am leaving this discussion.</p>
<p>Justinian, my saying I am sort of an agnostic stems from my lack of knowledge of a clear definition of agnostic. I am not religious, I do not subscribe to any religious beliefs, but I do believe in a God. Some people say that is agnostic (i.e., "I believe God exists, but know nothing about him because the religions are the only things that say anything about him but I don't buy that"). </p>
<p>And what if the words of my new book uplift you too? Will you have a personal relationship with my "new" God and go on murdering? I think in order to really call yourself a real Christian, you need to be able to defend your theology in more than a Biblical framework.</p>
<p>Thisyearsgirl,
You have said that you are going to leave the discussion many times, yet you still linger here. Perhaps you should add something of value here or leave.</p>
<p>And Justinian, I hate to make this personal, but I keep getting an image of a 13 year old sitting at a computer talking about religion when he really knows little about it. How old are you?</p>
<p>If I were defending Christianity with other than Biblical framework, then we would be out of the realm of Christianity. It would be like saying that the book "Wuthering Heights" is good by using quantum physics.</p>
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You have said that you are going to leave the discussion many times, yet you still linger here. Perhaps you should add something of value here or leave.
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<p>She's a naive atheist, what did you expect?</p>
<p>And yes, I do have the MATURITY to respect elders and believe in God. Thats the difference between ME and YOU.</p>
<p>Justinian, it is possible to defend Christianity without blindly sticking to the Bible.</p>
<p>I can do it and I'm not even Christian.</p>
<p>Gosh, if I am 13 years old writing this, then send me to Harvard and call me a boy genius. I am 62 by the way.</p>
<p>the entire fear of death argument is illogical. Believe in god so that you will not fear death is the essential argument posed by justinian. The ends cannot justify the means. </p>
<p>Just because an ostrich feels safe when it sticks its head in a hole does not mean that the situation has changed. Just because atheists might (and this is a generous assumption) fear death more than christians does not mean that god is justified. </p>
<p>And justinian, sure the bible says you will get a mansion in heaven. That is your belief. I disagree. I think the bible is a self perpetuating piece of trash. Now tell me why your belief is better than mine. </p>
<p>If you are to say that god told you so, then i too say that god told me that the bible is worthless. Why should we believe your revalation over mine?</p>
<p>Another note, god, as the Christians believe him is omnipotent, omnipresent, and benevolent. In other words, god has the ability to do good, the will to do good, and the ability to see where good needs to be done. Why then is there hunger, disease, war..etc. Did god make the rich people rich and predistine some for more earthly suffering? Why would a benevolent god do so? Why, if god, the creator of all wanted all to believe in him would he equip us with the ability to think and reason for ourselves. He is using his own invention against himself. No christian has ever been able to explain this to me.</p>
<p>I want to emphasize that belief is not a way of ascertaining knowledge. Go to a mental hospital and you will see that belief shows nothing.</p>
<p>You are 62? What the heck? First of all why are you even on CC, and second of all, if you have been this "religious" all your life then I think you have a very shallow understanding of God.</p>
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I can do it and I'm not even Christian.
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<p>You are agnostic. I wouldnt find you reliable defending Chtistianity :)</p>