<p>How about the world around you?</p>
<p>how about it? The earth exists...that tells us nothing about god's presence.</p>
<p>even if you do accept it as proof of a god, who's to proove that it's the god that you belive in? maybe it was zues who made the world.</p>
<p>I believe in God and Jesus Christ is our savior.</p>
<p>P.S. Islam is the looniest religion of all!</p>
<p>The imposition of christian ideals...how many times has this come up throughout history? Everking, from what I can tell, we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. The moment you understand why you dismiss all other gods, you will also understand why I dismiss yours.</p>
<p>Evidence. Perhaps the dead sea scrolls or Egyptian hieroglyphics depicting the Nile full of blood could better assist you in your request for evidence.
Why does God have to prove anything to us. Would that not be hypocritical of God if he were to show evidence? The Bible says that we should serve Him with faith. We should not be condoning the habit of screaming to God on a mountain-top demanding evidence of his existance. Did not Satan do this when Jesus Christ was praying in the desert?
I admit! Christianity is difficult to prove to the unbeliever because the unbeliever demands evidence. Tangible evidence is quite difficult to show when it comes to religion. The best evidence, in my honest opinion, is the testimony of the Christian, for we are to be the salt of the world.</p>
<p>Well, back to my reading of Les Miserables!</p>
<p>
[quote]
the unbeliever demands evidence
[/quote]
Is this unreasonable to ask for?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Perhaps the dead sea scrolls or Egyptian hieroglyphics depicting the Nile full of blood could better assist you in your request for evidence.
[/quote]
Seems to me to be more of abuse of translation.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Why does God have to prove anything to us. Would that not be hypocritical of God if he were to show evidence? The Bible says that we should serve Him with faith.
[/quote]
God could, if he wanted to, stifle all debate by shownig his almightly power. God could make everyone believe. But he doesn't. Why would a benevolent god fail to lead his "children" ? Unless he is not benevolent..</p>
<p>
[quote]
is the testimony of the Christian, for we are to be the salt of the world
[/quote]
What would that make Islam or any other religions.</p>
<p>You have consistently failed to prove why your faith in the bible is more justified that Islamic faith in the Koran (sp?).</p>
<p>I believe that the entropy of this universe is the God.</p>
<p>I think that since the idea of God entails a sort of religion to follow and focus the belief right that I dismiss God on the general principle of after all of these years and there mostly bad to show for it. I mean religion has caused so much more trouble than it is worth. More chaos than lucidity. Sad when you think of it. It is supposed to offer answers but only offers more questions. It is supposed to be our Salvation but it causes more destruction citing more wars than politics.</p>
<p>If religion is only going to be used for manipulation of the masses and destruction of those opposing and pushing certain agendas that don't even make sense in the context of the religion, then it hasn't served a useful purpose. Sure it has given us wonders like Mother Teresa and Ghandi (besides most would argue since he is not a believer technically in God... but anyways) but I have faith that humanity doesn't need a God to be good natured and lawful/mindful of others. If the only reason people aren't behaving badly is the prescence of a god then maybe they should reorganize their priorities.</p>
<p>Religion serves a purpose, it isn't to divide but to unite. Only things that have banded humans together have evolved (God gene, empathy) for a reason. There is a reason that people believe in a higher power. But I think most people misuse and abuse the right to believe.</p>
<p>In conclusion (guess I wasn't very directed on this) I believe that religion serves a purpose and without it man may have evolved very differently. Maybe better? maybe worse? who knows but until religion is used for a proper purpose and stops condemning me for my decisions I choose not to believe. I think God is an abstract concept and for people to create an image (whiter-than-white, holy I guess) is the first mis-step in the giant miscalculation that is organized religion. I think a personalized spirituality is the best way to go because being indoctrinated is not believing it is going-through-the-motions, mindless following. I think Choice and Freedom of Thought are the only true human ideas that could have led to a God in the first place. So as long as those are still here, I guess I could be happy without a God.</p>
<p>I believe in the God of the Bible. </p>
<p>Haven't read most of the above posts, since I just found this thread and was not about to read through almost 60 pages when I've probably heard all of the arguments for and against before. Lets just say I can't prove that God exists, just as no one can prove he doesn't. (And no, I'm not saying that people should have to prove that He doesn't exist - just that they can't.) I believe people can find evidence for either side, but basically, it comes down to faith.</p>
<p>Trancestrom,
I did not realize that were comparing the Bible with the Quran in this debate for which I am quite bereft of knowledge. I know very little about the Quran or Islam in general.
Also, what do you mean by abuse of translation?
Finally, I have some good news for you. God will be perfroming a myriad of miracles for us in the book of Revelation. This will be Christ's second coming when he creates his kingdom here on earth. This will be called Revelation or Armagedon(sp?)</p>
<p>I dont....thats it.</p>
<p>if I see everything that's fortold in revalations, then yes, I will become a believer.</p>
<p>But doesn't that sorta make god somewhat unfair, why do some people get offered concrete proof (those who lived in the times of jesus and witnessed the river running red with blood) while leaving the rest to just trust other's words. Assuming there is a god and I don't believe now due to lack of evidence I will be going to hell, yet had I lived in a different time or witnessed these miracles that others have then I would believe and possibly be destined for salvation, seems like god is screwing me over on that one.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I did not realize that were comparing the Bible with the Quran in this debate for which I am quite bereft of knowledge. I know very little about the Quran or Islam in general.
[/quote]
I am not, I am just asking for specifics, merely why you feel the christian view of god is better than the islamic view of god? What gives christians this justification?</p>
<p>
[quote]
abuse of translation
[/quote]
I have no doubt that at one time, there was some sort of conflict in egypt where the rivers ran red with the blood of the murdered. The bible extends the event such that it may mold the occurence in its own image. How do we know the paintings had anything to do with christianity....it is not so outlandish that a river may run red with blood after a battle</p>
<p>
[quote]
I have some good news for you. God will be perfroming a myriad of miracles for us in the book of Revelation. This will be Christ's second coming when he creates his kingdom here on earth. This will be called Revelation or Armagedon
[/quote]
That is a nice piece of speculation. All I can say is that Christianity will be waiting a looong time. In a court of law and with me, speculation shows nothing; there is no way that that supposed information can do anything to prove god's existence. </p>
<p>Besides, if god's actions were consistent with those in the old testament, he would have smote (smitten?) me by now.</p>
<p>For any atheist or theist who is actually interested in a somewhat coherent argument for the existence of God <em>not</em> given by "the Bible says," Revelation-believing Bible-thumpers and more for intellectual thinkers, here is a good article written by a pathologist:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.pathguy.com/theism.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.pathguy.com/theism.htm</a> There are holes in his ideas and the presentation, but, still.</p>
<p>About Jesus: <a href="http://www.pathguy.com/jesus/index.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.pathguy.com/jesus/index.htm</a></p>
<p>Edit: I'm not doing this to "convert" people. I fully believe you can live a moral and healthy life without belief in Christianity or any religion for that matter (morals, for me, are outside religion, and best serve humanity there--for if religion falls, morals are still intact if they're not based on a religion). I just hate to see the side of Christianity represented by such nonsensical ideas and am hoping to offer better food for thought in this discussion.</p>
<p>
[quote]
<a href="http://www.pathguy.com/theism.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.pathguy.com/theism.htm</a> There are holes in his ideas and the presentation, but, still.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I've read it. His arguments are not new, and they aren't particularly good, at least imo. He gives two reasons for belief in god - </p>
<p>1) Sudden awesome conversions</p>
<p>This is a very poor reason to believe in god. It holds no weight whatsoever - it's based on two logical fallacies - argument from incredulity (I can't believe this happened so god exists) and argument from numbers (So many people converted, god exists.)</p>
<p>2) "Near-death, out of body" experiences. </p>
<p>There's never been any evidence anywhere of anything actually happening during this kind of thing. There's tons of rumors (I heard from my older brother's friend that this happens...) but nothing special. It's unbelievable that on essentially nothing whatsoever, he immediately concludes god exists.</p>
<p>Then he goes on to name a list of things that somehow amazingly match Jesus. Hm...</p>
<p>Follows with typical religious double standard:</p>
<p>
[quote]
I do know that most of the bad things in this world have natural causes, and I also know that the really rotten things are the results of human evil.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
able to do a great deal, including turning the hearts of human beings, exercising total sovereignty in the realm of the spirits (angels, demons), and willing to consider our requests,
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Typical. God does all the good stuff, but all the bad stuff is natural.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I just hate to see the side of Christianity represented by such nonsensical
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Nowhere in this discussion has Christianity been misrepresented. When we say it has started wars - it has.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Besides, if god's actions were consistent with those in the old testament, he would have smote (smitten?) me by now.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That would be very tough, since the old testament is probably one of the most inconsistent pieces of writing of all time. Throughout you notice contradictions, confusion, etc...</p>
<p>Here's a rather long list of contradictions:</p>
<p>
[quote]
<a href="http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/extra/bible-contradictions.html%5B/url%5D%5B/quote%5D">http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/extra/bible-contradictions.html
[/quote]
</a></p>
<p>Course, there's going to be some apologetical answer for everything, one that requires you to dance around logic, skirt rationality, and perform feats of mental gymnastics. </p>
<p>What disturbs me more, though, is the amazing transformation that occurs with god from the ot to the nt...</p>
<p>Many people ask "why doesn't God just show us his power? Then we'd all be believers..." or something to that effect.</p>
<p>The reason is, according to my beliefs, that this life and this world are a test for us. If God were to suddenly, physically show himself, without any reason to doubt whatsoever, then NOBODY would have a reason not to believe. It would no longer be a test. Nobody would ever do anything bad again... ever. This completely defeats the purpose of using this world as a test to see who has the self control and worth to be granted eternal paradise.</p>
<p>Also, there are signs all around you. The problem with so many atheists is that when I say, "look at the sunset" or "look at the world around you", they respond with "So what? It exists... doesn't mean God did it." This is because of their strict logic-only attitude, which prevents them from seeing the beauty, symmetry, and excellence of the world around them. I, personally, think it's obvious that God exists merely by looking at the world and all the things in it. The four seasons, the coming down of rain, the vastness of space, the complexity of science and the universe... whereas atheists see it as a random result of a random event. They don't understand that every single thing around them is a sign. That is why religion is based on faith, and not concrete logic. The concrete logic atheists look for, would defeat the purpose of testing them. And that is why, unless they open up a little, they will never find God.</p>
<p>once again, I pose the question, lets say I accept that as proof of a god, what's to prove to justonian and all the other strict theists here that THIER god is the right god. Lets say taht I accept that some sort of higher power must have created the world due to it's complexity, but what would be the "sign" that it's the christian god who is this creator, and not the ancient greek or Aztec gods. I'd like an answer to that one, because I can see the point where one can say that a higher power must have had a hand in creating something so complex, it's the sole reason I'm agnostic and not an athiest, but for the life of me I cannot find a single sign in nature to tell me "jesus is your savior".</p>
<p>
[quote]
And that is why, unless they open up a little, they will never find God.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Open up to what, exactly? Seeing things that aren't there? You don't eat a delicious meal and say... ahhh there's god right there. Why is a landscape any different?</p>
<p>Blind faith is ... stupid. I have faith in many things and many people, but none of it is blind. I have faith in my parents and my friends. They've been there for me everytime. I have faith in natural phenomena - they happen regularly. Why randomly believe in something that you know and concede there's no evidence for? If I told you there's an invisible pink unicorn in your garage, you won't agree. Then why believe in an invisible powerful creature that rules all? </p>
<p>
[quote]
random result of a random event.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Logical fallacy = strawman. The universe, life, etc... did not come out of randomness. Even if it did, this is at best anthropocentrism - us humans are special, we couldn't have possibly be the result of randomness.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The reason is, according to my beliefs, that this life and this world are a test for us.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The test goes both ways. What if in fact god wants you to be a rational person and reject the weak evidence of himself that he's planted on earth?</p>