<p>Who knows, trancesorm, but to delve into that, we assume the existance of God. Are we now going to bypass proof of that, and accept in each instance we talk about it, the proposition "God exists" as true? Shouldn't we then define God, if we're going to move onto this step?</p>
<p>Justinian I: Did you ever get around to apologizing for your erroneous comment about Catholicism only advocating good works as being the sole path to salvation? I'm still waiting for either an apology or a renouncement of said comment.</p>
<p>I do agree with you in that we absolutely have to differentiate between what is moral and what is immoral regardless of religion or creed.</p>
<p>Trancestorm: I have an honest question that I want you to answer without getting angry. Why do you solely focus nearly all of your comments in bashing Christianity (Catholicism in particular) when other religions and atheists have committed similar attrocities against humanity (let us remember that the Atheist states of the Soviet Union and China have caused the deaths of millions in institutionalized political purges)?</p>
<p>You actually remind me a lot of my parents. They also mainly take aim at Christianity and regard me as a bafoon for returning to the church of my ancestors.</p>
<p>"let us remember that the Atheist states of the Soviet Union and China have caused the deaths of millions in institutionalized political purges" and this was because of atheism?</p>
<p>mruncleramos: If you have been following this thread, you would have noticed that many of the atheists have claimed that Christianity and other religions have caused human attrocities. Therefore, it is equally appropriate to conemn that actions of atheists against humanity. Many posters have said that since Christians represent Christianity and since they committed great suffering against others, Christianity must be held accountable. I am just using the same logic. Wouldn't you agree?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Why do you solely focus nearly all of your comments in bashing Christianity (Catholicism in particular) when other religions and atheists have committed similar attrocities against humanity (let us remember that the Atheist states of the Soviet Union and China have caused the deaths of millions in institutionalized political purges)?
[/quote]
My comments are directed towards christianity for the sole reason that at one confused point of my life, I was christian. I am unqualified to speak on Islam and many other religions due to lack of exposure...i do not want to do them undue injustice. Christianity, on the other hand, is something I have experienced firsthand. </p>
<p>My criteria for judging philosophy is not based off of how many lives certain religions save (although this would put Christianity towards the bottom). In Russia/China Communist systems, it was not the atheistic philosophy that caused the death of many people; it was the inherent flaws in the POLITICAL system. </p>
<p>What irks me about christianity is the imposition of morals...christians are not content with living their lives in ignorance (without affecting others); instead, christians spread the delusion (forcefully) on autonomous people.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Catholicism only advocating good works as being the sole path to salvation?
[/quote]
No...actually this is one of the distinguishing factors between RC and protestantism. Catholics believed in justification by work and faith while protestants believed in justification by faith alone...(Read the works of Luther and Calvin, especially calvin). Perhaps contemporary Catholics evolved from the original view, but justification by work was an initial value of Catholicism...it was one of the factors leading to the formation of protestants.</p>
<p>All religions suck .. How about that?</p>
<p>I think that what people were trying to say was that, Christians should not claim to hold moral superiority, because they have committed atrocities.<br>
Atheists do not claim to hold moral superiority, and they have committed atrocities.</p>
<p>
[quote]
it is equally appropriate to condemn that actions of atheists against humanity. Many posters have said that since Christians represent Christianity and since they committed great suffering against others, Christianity must be held accountable. I am just using the same logic. Wouldn't you agree?
[/quote]
The difference between cortes and stalin was that Cortes was commissioned by a king seeking to promulgate Christian interests. Thus, Cortes had a religious goal, religious motivation...a religious quest. Stalin was not commissioned by any atheist to establish atheist philosophies...atheism was just a requisite for the political system he wished to implement. Stalin had no inherent interest in Atheism...Atheism was a means to the greater end of Communism (a POLITICAL end, not a religious one)</p>
<p><a href="let%20us%20remember%20that%20the%20Atheist%20states%20of%20the%20Soviet%20Union%20and%20China%20have%20caused%20the%20deaths%20of%20millions%20in%20institutionalized%20political%20purges">quote</a>?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I disagree. The Soviet Union (and China, in that period) pushed forward "the State" to a religion, whose worship was required. Hardly atheism.</p>
<p>in all fairness, most of those atrocities committed in the name of christianity were actually motivated by money, and the leaders simply used christianity as a means to motivate the masses</p>
<p>Inquisition.</p>
<p>No, cortes was a conquistador who sought the riches of the Aztecs.
And no Everkingly, I will not apologize. This is a thread which delves into the aspects of religion and philosophy. Here on this thread, I have been called stupid, an idiot, and ignorant and never once received an apology. Someone who disagrees with your point of view should not have to automatically apologize. Trancestorm and Tetrahedron, you disagree with some of my religious and philosophical points of view. APOLOGIZE, IMMEDIATELY! Just kidding! :)</p>
<p>Trancestorm:
"No...actually this is one of the distinguishing factors between RC and protestantism. Catholics believed in justification by work and faith while protestants believed in justification by faith alone...(Read the works of Luther and Calvin, especially calvin). Perhaps contemporary Catholics evolved from the original view, but justification by work was an initial value of Catholicism...it was one of the factors leading to the formation of protestants."</p>
<p>I think you read my post incorrectly because I have never ever said that Catholicism does not promote good works as a valid path towards salvation. In fact, I have only said that the RC advocates both faith and good works as paths toward slavation. So, in that respect we both agree. You might want to read my entire post and not just read one line out of context.</p>
<p>"My comments are directed towards christianity for the sole reason that at one confused point of my life, I was christian."</p>
<p>I feel that you are still in a sense confused not in that you do not have well-formulated thoughts or beliefs but that you still hold resentment and bitterness in your heart. As you may know, I once was a devout atheist (probably even more than you (I once advocated the imprisonment of all theists because I felt they impeded the advancement of society)). However, I am at a peaceful state in which I can make comments without in anyway directing added hostility against the philosophy (atheism) that I once held so dear. The bitterness in your posts demonstrates that you have not reached such a point and are instead in that preliminary stage of trying to convince yourself of your beliefs by taking special aim at your former belief system. In any case, I pray that you will one day reach this stage where you will no longer hold bitterness or hostility towards your former religion not because you believe any of its tenets but because you are comfortable with your own beliefs.</p>
<p>"My criteria for judging philosophy is not based off of how many lives certain religions save (although this would put Christianity towards the bottom). In Russia/China Communist systems, it was not the atheistic philosophy that caused the death of many people; it was the inherent flaws in the POLITICAL system."</p>
<p>If only the POLITICAL system of the Soviet Union/China is to blame for the massive purges that led to the deaths of millions and not atheism, which is the philosophy that both regimes advocated (China still advocates this system), then why don't you blame the POLITICAL system of Spain and other POLITICAL systems of other colonizers for the deaths of millions of Aztecs/Mayas/Incas...etc. and not the RELIGIOUS system of Catholicism and in a larger context Christianity?</p>
<p>Justinian I:
I would like an apology not because I disagree with some of your statements but because your statement that the Catholic Church only advocates good works as the sole vehicle for salvation is highly erroneous. It is a statement that has no basis in modern Catholic teaching. You must absolutely relinquish that statement.</p>
<p>What irks me about christianity is the imposition of morals...christians are not content with living their lives in ignorance (without affecting others); instead, christians spread the delusion (forcefully) on autonomous people.</p>
<p>autonomy is a great philosophical term :) And I agree - i find it very annoying that many christians base their morality on the faulty idea that god as they see it defines moral law through religious texts. This of course is then the basis for justifying trying to push such ideas through legislature (e.g. ban on gay marriage, polygamy, prayer in public schools, "intelligent design" and any multitude of other blatantly religiously-biased things).
In fact, I find it more than annoying - I find it absolutely pathetic that our supposedly modern society is so damned unenlightened (for lack of a better term) on issues of societal equality and fairness. Religion has no place in society-wide rules.</p>
<p>"If only the POLITICAL system of the Soviet Union/China is to blame for the massive purges that led to the deaths of millions and not atheism, which is the philosophy that both regimes advocated (China still advocates this system), then why don't you blame the POLITICAL system of Spain and other POLITICAL systems of other colonizers for the deaths of millions of Aztecs/Mayas/Incas...etc. and not the RELIGIOUS system of Catholicism and in a larger context Christianity?"</p>
<p>i think you have to consider non-government induced atrocities. the mass-murders precipitated by the mass migration of hindus and muslims during the creation of Pakistan in 1947, centuries of wars between Christians and Muslims, the taiping rebellion induced by baptist ministers in China that lasted 20 years and cost thirty million chinese lives.</p>
<p>in light of these, religion has often been a spark for numerous conflicts throughout history.</p>
<p>Actually, Icarus, as irreligious as I am, I have to disagree with you. First, we live in a pluralist society. Everyone has a right, and maybe even an obligation, to voice their opinions as strongly as they believe in them. Second, and more important, I believe that in a Biblical framework (which Christians obviously believe), Christians should try to "moralize" (in the Biblical sense) the rest of the world. What that means is that if you are a believing Christian, it isn't enough to sit by as things that the Bible says are immoral go on. Basically then, they're just doing what their beliefs dictate.</p>
<p>But the common good is not best served by the realization of christian biblical rules in society. Because we do live in a society comprised of more than one type of person, a social theory must be unbiased. This is not possible if one group is allowed to impose obviously biased rules on the entirety of society.
Yes they can act on their beliefs, but in a society like this, anyone must act on their beliefs in a way that does not infringe on the rights and lives of others in that society. Unfortunately, christian ideology does that. So if they want to simply "act on their beliefs" as you say, they must do so as more of a grass-roots type effort. It cannot, cannot be allowed to be imposed on society as a whole. Period. </p>
<p>The views of the majority do not, should not, can not take precidence over the rights of the minority (in an ideal society that unfortunately we do not have)</p>
<p>Xe<em>Ln</em>Ag_A: I think we both agree that religion may be a spark but POLITICAL reasons make up the bomb. I have never said that religion has never played a role. I have only said that religion was not the major reason for attrocities such as colonization efforts throughout the world.</p>
<p>The Catholic Church is the devil's workshop.</p>