<p>The Catholic Church regards the virgin mary as a proverbial "god". Although Mary was an immaculate individual, she should not be idolized as a god. Everkingly, I have read Catholic pamphlets, talked to priests, and talked to staunch Catholic people. All of these sources tell me that the church mandates salvation by works solely! In addition, this organization places the priest on a pedestal of worhip claiming that the only way sins can be forgiven is by a confessional booth and a priest. How ostentatious for this religious denomination to mandate this.
Everkingly, the Prostetant church is far superior to the RC because we partake in the belief of salvation by faith solely.</p>
<p>
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why don't you blame the POLITICAL system of Spain and other POLITICAL systems of other colonizers for the deaths of millions of Aztecs/Mayas/Incas
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Cortes had religious motivation...he was funded by a king seeking to promulgate christianity throughout the Indians. </p>
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the mass-murders precipitated by the mass migration of hindus and muslims during the creation of Pakistan in 1947
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I do not condone this. Religious tensions were at work here and claimed the lives of many...this is why I do not like religion. By the way, Gandhi was one of the worst things that happened to India.</p>
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taiping rebellion induced by baptist ministers in China that lasted 20 years and cost thirty million chinese lives.
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The religious extermination in China was a means to the greater end of Communism, not a ends in itself.</p>
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religion may be a spark but POLITICAL reasons make up the bomb.
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I think the religion would be the weapons grade plutonium inside. Evemn going along with your analogy, without religion, the bomb would not go off (even though I do not agree with this analogY).</p>
<p>I do not call many of the colonizing movements (such as the colonization of India)religious because they were motivated by ONLY by economic gain (forceful conversions were kept to a minimum) I DO call the invasion of the Aztecs religious movements because speading religion was on Cortes' agenda.</p>
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the Prostetant church is far superior to the RC because we partake in the belief of salvation by faith solely.
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The inevitable, two christians trying to impose beliefs upon each other! This is tragic. </p>
<p>
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All of these sources tell me that the [catholic] church mandates salvation by works solely
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I can back you up on this. This was one of the main points of contention between Protestants and RCs in the time of Luther and such. Read the works of Luther and why he decided to break from RC...there is no doubt RC is salvation by work.</p>
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By the way, Gandhi was one of the worst things that happened to India.
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</p>
<p>Umm...why?</p>
<p>
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[quote]
By the way, Gandhi was one of the worst things that happened to India.
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</p>
<p>Umm...why?
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Many reasons...The Khalifat Movement, his confused and waivering positions regarding the partition plan (which ultimately led to Muslim-Hindu tension), horrible concessions given to the British...most of all, Gandhi failed to recognize Pakistan as an enemy state to India. Instead (with one of his fasts) he made the indian government support PAkistan (even when Pakistan was invading kashmir)...he also failed to call for a withdrawal of troops from Pakistan...most of all, he abandonned Hindus in Pakistan in 1947 which instigated the cycle of violence we see today. He told the Hindu refugees from Pakistan to go back and die (for matyrdom) and failed to point fingers at the Muslims who were killing Hindus and Sikhs. Anyways...this is totally unrelated.</p>
<p>If I could rule the world I would make religion illigal. The punishment for this crime would be to make the religious person watch a video proving evolution. Muhahahahaha.</p>
<p>Justinian I and Trancestorm: You've both been gravely misinformed! The RC church does NOT proclaim salvation through works! That's rididculous! The Catholic Church has never taught such a doctrine.
In fact, it has constantly condemned the notion that we can "earn" salvation. Only by God's grace, is on saved. The Church teaches that it's God's grace from beginning to end which justifies, sanctifies, and saves us. As Paul explains in Philippians 2:13, "God is the one wjho, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work."
Notice that Paul's words presuppose that the faithful Christian is not just desiring to be righteous, but is actively working toward it. This is the second half of the justification equation, and Protestants either miss or ignore it.
James 2:17 reminds us that "faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead." In verse 24, James says, "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." And later: "For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead" (v. 26).
In other words, the kind of faith which is mere belief in a list of propositions is insufficient for justification. Authentic, saving faith is always manifested in good works. And it is those good works which, when they become habitual, keep us from bad works, sins. We lose our salvation when we fall into serious sin. Good works help keep us out of sin, which is to say they help to keep us in a state of grace, and in that way they contribute to our salvation. But the initial justification still comes from faith, not from works.
Good works by themselves aren't enough. The Council of Trent taught it is impossible for anyone to justified before God by works, no matter how fine they might be. Catholics who think they can qualify for heaven by praying a certain amount of rosaries or attending a certain number of masses are mistaken. So are thos who think heaven is theirs if they engage in lots of do-goodism. What makes us justified in God's sight is faith. If we have true faith, good works follow naturally and protect that faith.
So, far from teaching a doctrine of "works righteousness" - that would be Pelagianism, which was condemned at the Council of Carthage in A.D. 418 - the Catholic Church teaches the true biblical doctrine of justification. It avoids the two erroneous extremes. Works alone aren't enough, and neither is bare faith in a list of propositions.</p>
<p>And the RC church doesn't regard Mary as a proverbial God!?!!</p>
<p>Just because Mary was immaculately conceived, it doesn't mean that she did not need a savior.</p>
<p>You may think she did not, but Mary though otherwise: "My Spirit rejoices in God my savior: (Lk 1:47). Mary acknowledged quite plainly that she had - because she needed - a Savior.
Some Catholics and many non-Catholics think the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception refers to the conception of Jesus. Not so. It refers to the conception of Mary in her mother's womb. Her mother's name was Anne and her father's was Joachim, according to tradition.
We are conceived bearing the stain of original sin, and we need baptism to wash our souls clean. Mary would have been conceived the same way, but God, by a positice act, chose to intervene and prevent Mary's soul from bearing that stain. We are cleansed after conception through the sacrament of baptism. Mary was cleansed in anticipation of her Son's salvific work by a direct act of God.
Here's an analogy. Let's say you're walking along a jungle path. In the middle of the path, carefully hidden by branches and leaves, is a deep pit. You don't notice the pit and fall into it. A passerby pulls you out. You are saved from the pit. Then a woman walks along another path with another hidden pit. Just as she is about to tumble in, a passerby reaches ou and pull her back. She too is saved from the pit, but in anticipation - before falling in - rather than after the fact. Both of you are saved from the put (original sin), and both have a Savoir (God).</p>
<p>The Roman Catholic never preached the doctrine of salvation by works? Uh, Uh...Ok. I'm in a state of shock. One of the main reasons why the Protestant Reformation began was to preach against the Roman Catholic doctrine of salvation by works. Luther wrote numerous pamphlets about this false doctrine of the RC. Luther himself said, "The just shall live by faith" in response to the Roman Catholic's doctrine of works.</p>
<p>Who would you rather believe, St. Paul or Luther?</p>
<p>There is no question that RC preached justification by work. Written works by Charles V (holy roman emperor of the time), the pope of the time, and the great opposers of RC all showed this. Luther's reason for breaking with RC (one of them) was his realization that faith alone (not work) caused salvation.</p>
<p>And about your attack against the RC Church and priests:</p>
<p>Christ never engaged in unnecessary acts. He instituted the sacrament of penance or reconciliation, or what we commonly call confession (the terms emphasize different aspects, but refer to the same sacrament). He instituted confession as the ordinary or normative way of having one's sins forgiven. This means that it is the standard way. Yes, sins are forgiven when one sincerely repents and prays earnestly to God. In fact, before you even enter the confessional, you must say a sincere act of contrition, so the very sacrament acknowledges the need for a direct request to God that he forgive your sins. But confession to a priest makes a lot of sense: firts, becuase of our limitations; second, because of the nature of sin.
We all fool ourselved at times. We talk ourselves into and out of doing things. We adroitly avoid unpleasantness, and little is mroe unpleasant than acknowledging our sinfulness and the particular sins we've committed. When we confess to God privately, we run the risk of only feignin sorrow. We might even fool ourselves into thinking we're really sorry when we're not. No sin can be forgiven unless we're truly sorry for it. Here's where a priest, trained in hearing confessions, can help us see past our prise or our remaining attachment to a particular sin. He can help us ascertain when we're sorry when we're not. Often he can tell far better than we can. He can give us solid personal advice too.
After all, Jesus knew what he was doing. He gave the apostles and - through apostolic succession - the bishops and bishops' helpers, the priests, the power to forgive sins: "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and who sins you retain are retained" (Jn 20: 22-23). He didn't give them this power - his own power - for no reason at all. He wanted them to use it. Note that priests are able to forgive or not forgive (retain) sins. How do they know which to forgive and which not to forgive? Only by being told the sins by the penitent. Then, after questioning is necessary, the priest can evaluate the penitent's sorrow.
Sometimes people today talk about "victimless crimes." In fact there is no such a thinkg. There is always at least one victim, the criminal, and often there are others, known and unknown. The drug pusehr, for instance, may have thousand of victims, but may meet only a handful. The adulterer victimizes all the members of the families undermined by the serious sin of adultery. The pornographer victimizes all the readers of a particular magazine, even if they don't realize they're being victimized, even if they revel in it. Just as there are no victimless crimes, there are no sins which affect only the sinner.
Jesus likened our relationship with him to a vine; he is the vine and we are the branches (Jn 12:5). Every branch is related to every other branch through the vine. What happends to one branch influences every other branch. If one branch becomes ill, neighboring branches become ill. Even branches far away are affected. Spiritual illness comes when we sin. It is impossible to sin and not influence others in society. We may not be aware of the influence, but it's there. Since every sin is social in its effects - it affects every other Christian, even every other person - Christ established a social means for forgiveness. In confession we relate our sins and our sorrow to another human being, who represents both our Lord and the whole community of the faithful.</p>
<p>You both have said that the RCC does preach it and that it did preach it. Just because Popes in the past have asserted things never changes Catholic Cannonical Doctrine! You must not be well-versed (no pun intended). And for you to assert that the RCC currently preaches that is erroneous! I'm sorry, but the "pamphlets" and "staunch" Catholics you consulted were mistaken. You cannot believe everything you read without consulting more sources! Otherwise, you base your opinions on possibly ignorant claims and biased views. I forgive you for your mistakes, but please try to become better informed about the RC church before making such sweeping generalizations. You clearly do not know enough about the RC church to be writing about it, so you really should not post about it like you do! Thanks for reading. I hope you will be a little more open-minded. I have nothing against my Protestant brothers and sisters. I hope you all realize that. God bless you all! :D</p>
<p>According to Protestantism and the Bible, our sins must be forgiven by going to God in prayer via the Holy Spirit as our intercessor. I attacked the RC church and priests because the RC church explicitly says the that the priest takes the place of God and is the only way for our sins to be forgiven. If we have sinned and not confessed them to a priest and then die, we are forced to spend time in purgatory. If we do confess our sins to a priest, a few hail marys and "our fathers" should do the trick to help forgive us. Please explain to me Dr. AP where the Bible tells us this. By the Trancestorm, are you posting from your school computer.</p>
<p>Are most of the Theists here Catholic?</p>
<p>Yes, but you posted a few posts back that the RCC church never preached that doctrine. You have flip-flopped. I have nothing against the RCC, either however I staunchly disagree with them! :]</p>
<p>I still hold that ground. The RCC never has taught and never will teach that doctrine. Just because a Pope in the past has erroneously claimed such a thing does not mean the Church itself has endorsed it. Popes are human as well! I acknowledge that in the past, people have trangressed and asserted things that are not true or representative of Catholic belief, but rather representative of their own beliefs. I do not endorse such claims! As it stand, the Church does not currently, and never, ever in the past has claimed that one earns salvation just through works!
And if you have nothing against the RCC, then why would you attack it and the priests? That is a flip-flop in and of itself! The church does not "explicitly" make such a claim! Yes, priests do have the power to forgive sins, as entrusted upon them by our Lord Jesus Christ (read my previous post concerning that). However, it is NOT the only way for sins to be forgiven. It is just among the BEST ways. If you reread my post about sins and confession, you will see that people CAN confess directly to God but that due to human nature, such confessions are inevitably imperfect! Your conception about Purgatory is a little off, and I suggest you do some reading on the side (and preferably from reliable sources). And as far as where the bible tells us about confession, I already cited the corresponding Bible passages. Where is your proof? Better yet, forget it. It's fruitless for you to even begin flipping through the Bible. If you re-read my above posts, you'll realize that you're mistaken. I'm sorry for you - really I am! I will pray for you! Please pray for me too! Thanks :)</p>
<p>I will pray so that religious nuts one day can see the light.</p>
<p>JamesN:
"The Catholic Church is the devil's workshop."</p>
<p>Yes and the Muhammed is the devil!</p>
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JamesN:
"The Catholic Church is the devil's workshop."</p>
<p>Yes and the Muhammed is the devil!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Pardon me, but I'd like to know why you've brought Islam into this. James is Christian, he said that in one of his earlier posts. I'll find it if you'd like. I see no need to insult either the Catholic Church or the prophet Mohammed.</p>
<p>Thank you Sydney_bristow87! These insults are completely unwarranted!</p>
<p>And w1cked, what do you mean by "religious nuts?" I'm curious... Do you mean that every God-fearing man and woman who attends religious services, reads his/her holy book, and is very passionate about his/her beliefs is a nut? If so, I'm sorry for you... but religious "nuts" are the only hope that humankind has in this day and age! And just what light are the "religious nuts" not seeing yet? Do you see this light? Please, explain to me what you mean by "religious nuts" and "the light." Thanks ;)</p>