<p>Cloverdale, I don't mean to beat a dead horse. But I feel like I have to point out, again, that people who are making choices between medical bills and rent are unlikely to have to come up with $200K for college. They would almost certainly qualify for need-based aid. And I do understand your point of reference. My husband and I are first generation college graduates, and my parents were immigrants. My father was lucky to find work in this country, in a steel mill. So, if I seem to speak from a life of privilege, it's just not true.</p>
<p>people can be among those unable to afford the vacations, cars, and early retirement and STILL be ineligible for finaid. I agree the OP should consider what his parents are giving up. If it is just a matter of worse vacations and cars, the kid should take the money because in the end, as many here have said, those are hardly monumental sacrifices. The question was how much is $200K and the answer is --it is relative. There are some people who do no qualify for aid but would still be selling their souls to take on $200K more of debt. You and the OPs parents are not in that group --but many are-- and that is why $200K means different things to different people.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>My husband and I are first generation college graduates, and my parents were immigrants.<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>This is the great thing about America! It's a story I've heard so many times from different folks--parents didn't go to college; kids are state U graduates; grandkids are at a super-selective private college. What happens at the great-grandkid level? Anyone know?</p>
<p>well, the great-grandkids are legacies at super selective private colleges.</p>
<p>
Who knows? We've told our kids that they don't owe us anything in return -- but we DO expect them to provide the same opportunities for their children. It's hard to know what to expect. I sometimes think that they've had it a little too easy, in some respects. Growing up with limited financial support taught my husband and me how to be resourceful.</p>
<p>Mini,
Like I said everyone has a different perspective, and each is entitled to theirs. Since the question asked for opinions that is what I offered my opinion and I respect yours.</p>
<p>That's fine. If I were you (and I'm not) I would be PROUD to be choosing to pay the tangible price for your son's education, and to be doing so in good, hard dollars. I certainly am for my d., even if it is less (because our income is likely less.)</p>
<p>I find it commendable, even remarkable, that the initiator of this thread is a student. Our son has not asked us whether $200K would pose a hardship. The $200K COULD be cobbled together -- from savings, grants, and loans -- but does that alone make it affordable? I lost my job last year, at the age of 55, and my wife is relatively new to the full-time workforce and earns little. </p>
<p>That he fails to even recognize the question is, partly, our fault. We did not teach him much about money and sacrifice, and we stupidly never thought we would ever be in this position. Yes, we have money in the bank and could piece together a package, but there is, and never was, a "lifestyle to adjust," to use the words of another parent. My college-bound son hasn't been in a plane since his second birthday. His 11-year-old sister has NEVER been in one (the only kid in her class, she says). We've only bought used (inexpensive) cars and held off on buying a second until my son could drive. We buy groceries on sale. We did not squander his college fund. We gave him a full-time mother and a sister. </p>
<p>Whether he says it with his mouth or his eyes, it's "All my friends can afford it, why not me?" To which my first response is "we already spent $40,000 to send you to Catholic high school. That may not be a lot to your friends' parents, but it was a lot for us." So is it wrong that I find myself increasingly resentful that he thinks nothing, or gives the appearance of thinking nothing, of his own family's future? Is it too much to expect my own child to be sensitive to the tradeoff and risks involved? What about his sister's education? And, darn it, I will speak the unspeakable: I've worked all my life. Don't I deserve a retirement? </p>
<p>I don't know what people are referring to when they talk about "early retirement." I do know that any year I might pick from here on out, assuming I can actually get another job, I can reasonably expect to live and ENJOY a relatively short retirement. The boy has his whole life ahead of him! Interestingly, FAFSA doesn't ask how old the student's parents are. What could matter more than how many earning years a body is likely to have left? As for my now year-long unemployment, we got NO consideration from any of the 9 schools my son was accepted by because our last tax return showed severance pay. I am profoundly sorry that I was the victim of a massive corporate layoff. I am sorry for all of us. But do I deserve to feel guilty as well? </p>
<p>Here is a student who asks about the needs of his family. You can't buy the maturity that this displays with any amount of college tuition. </p>
<p>At our home, we are trying to decide between a very good private school that came across with a 1/4 merit grant, and a pretty good public school. I won't argue that the schools offer the same quality of education, though they may very well. But, assuming for the sake of argument that the more expensive school is the better one, why should sacrifice be a one-way street, each generation sacrificing for the next? Should we not expect our kids to sacrifice, too? Are their brains not yet properly wired to understand cost-benefit issues? Who is being selfish here, him or me (my wife is torn)? He looks at me now as if I am stealing something precious to him, and I stare back at him in the dwindling hope that he will toss a smile my way. I've been a loving father -- I can get pretty teary when I think about the day he packs up to go (we were once close, or so I thought) -- but maybe that's not the same as being a good one. Who's being selfish here? And, most of all, how do I win back my son's affections? This has turned out to be more than just a financial decision about which college to choose: like opening Pandora's box, it has unloosed unresolved issues in the parent-child relationship, even in the parent-parent relationship. I'm sure I'm not alone in experiencing it this way. The emotional pot is boiling over. How do I keep everyone from getting scalded and scarred forever?</p>
<p>Dad23,</p>
<p>You make great points, although your post broke my heart. You sound like a great dad - and that is what's going to carry you through, not the amount of money you spend on college.</p>
<p>I can sympathize after a couple of years of my kids thinking we are poor (!) because they go to a school where there are lots of super rich kids for whom there is no limit to anything they are allowed to spend money on. (They seemed to have gotten over that pretty early on, or they gave up mentioning it due the risk of making mom and dad extremely angry.)</p>
<p>Oddly, we have one kid who would spend us blind, and another who will write on the grocery list, "Peanut Butter (whatever is on sale)." </p>
<p>But, one family value instilled in me as a kid was: Parents deserve a life too. </p>
<p>All the talk of hardship, huge loans due the next 10 years, and maybe never retiring - no. Hopefully not us. Our kids are going to college on a "budget" and it's generous by any means ($25K per year limit) but NOT bottomless. If things hold out financially (and for that we pray, as we have had lay-offs too) we fully hope to be able to travel a year or two in Europe, downsize to a loft or something, and buy a small vacation home in the Adirondacks. And I don't feel guilty in the least about wanting that stuff, which for our income should be possible, but is not a no-brainer.</p>
<p>Dad23, I'm so sorry to read about your difficulties! And no, I don't think all the sacrifice should come on the parents' side. Fwiw, I don't think your son's inability to understand the financial realities of your situation is that unusual -- most kids his age just don't have the maturity to understand these issues. I know that my kids don't! We were able to allow our older son to attend the school he wanted, but I spent a lot of time trying to make sure he understood all the factors involved -- Stafford loans on his part, the fact that he has to work during the school year, our loans mean we can't help with grad school etc. I'm still not convinced that he gets it.</p>
<p>In your situation, I'd vote with the least expensive option. He has his whole life to pursue graduate education or his own goals, but you have to think about your future financial security. Unless he's willing to support you and your wife in retirement, it's in HIS best interests to go with the flow on this choice. Life just isn't fair, and we don't always get what we want. It seems to me, though, that your son has benefited from a loving family, a private HS education and a SAH mom. </p>
<p>With that in mind, I would think you may still have a little time to contact the FA office at the private school to review your situation. I would do that on my own, without involving my son. If they really won't budge, then I think your son should go with the public option. It's also possible that he could transfer after a year, when your FAFSA income will probably be much lower. By the way, I think the Profile does ask for parent age, so some schools do consider that factor.</p>
<p>In any case, I wish you the best. The situation isn't easy, but your son does seem to have a good option with the public college. My husband and I both attended public universities, and it worked out fine for us, as it does for many people. As far as your relationship with your son goes, I think it will just take a little time. He's probably a little angry at life at the moment, but he'll get over it. I'm sure he loves for more than just your ability to write a few cheques.</p>
<p>Dad23 - You sound like a wonderful, conscientious, caring Dad. The only tidbit I would add is to consider having a family pow-wow to go over the family's balance sheet and budget (including future family expenditures such as your daughter's upcoming college education). Seeing the family's finances in black-and-white will hopefully tell the tale. It may not be pretty or what your son wants to see, but it will be the facts. (As I'm sure you know, a mantra from financial planners is also not to jeopardize your savings for retirement versus spending for college.) </p>
<p>Now for a more personal note about one of the factors influencing my advice to my younger son on what college to attend - public versus private. Like your kids, my son had a number of friends from affluent backgrounds in an affluent suburb. Money and where it came from did not impact their lives much. With my wife and I coming from families with limited means, we were (and are) worried that the lesson of the "value of a dollar" had not adequately sunk in.</p>
<p>In the end, though we could well-afford the private college, I recommended that my son attend the state university in part because he would be exposed to all social classes, not just the primarily affluent surburbanites at the private college. It's year two for him at the state university and the experiment so far appears to be working.</p>
<p>Luckyducky - Let me also join in the chorus of congratulations on the admirable maturity you have displayed in being senstive to your family's spending for your education. You have already gotten excellent advice in the various posts. Whatever you ultimately decide will be "right" for you and your family in part because you have so thoroughly explored the options. What goes on is your caring spirit which will benefit you and whoever is lucky enough to know you the rest of your life.</p>
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Whether he says it with his mouth or his eyes, it's "All my friends can afford it, why not me?"
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</p>
<p>
[quote]
He looks at me now as if I am stealing something precious to him, and I stare back at him in the dwindling hope that he will toss a smile my way.
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<p>Agree with lonestardad. You're not stealing anything from your son. As the loving father that you are, all you owe him is an explanation of the reality of what's going on and the life lesson he needs to learn. Your only job is to raise a responsible, independent adult. </p>
<p>When our older son was 16 and in HS, he wanted a car. We told him we'd title it, but it was up to him to find the best deal, pay for it himself, and insure it. So he did. It wasn't easy, by any means. One day he said to us, "All my friends' parents buy them their cars, pay the insurance, and even pay for gas. Why don't you?" We told him we believed in giving him maximum freedom with maximum responsibility. We asked him to think about how independent and mature his friends really were. If their parents disappeared tomorrow, would they know how to find and keep a job, buy a car, shop for insurance, balance academics with sports and music activities and work? He'd never looked at it that way before. He realized he had accomplished a lot that his friends hadn't and had a lot to be proud of. He "got it."</p>
<p>I want to both welcome you as a new poster, and join in the reaction of others who found your well-expressed first post so gripping. Thank you for the meaningful sharing.</p>
<p>Further, I can empathize with your situation, as my family went through a somewhat similar experience when my husband, our main wage earner, became unemployed at age 53 and in our D's senior year of high school (after app season and before decision time). </p>
<p>Like you, because of previous income and severance, plus the fact that we had saved for our kids' college educations, we did not quallify for any aid. D's final choice came to an honors program at a fine state school and her top choice LAC (a perfect fit for her rather unique needs). We told her that she could make the choice but would have to assume a good part of the financial burden should she choose the "more expensive spread." She struggled with the decision for weeks, making first one choice and then the other. </p>
<p>We told her she could use all the money in her college fund, but we would not be adding to it. She eventually decided to use her AP credits to shave off a year at the LAC and took on some loans. She did recognize and express concern for the economics of our situation. I was glad that she found the choice so hard. But some kids are simply not as tuned in -- I suspect my S (younger) is one of them ;).</p>
<p>For what it is worth, looking back on it now, this experience was a good one for our family. All of us developed a deeper appreciation of things we had previously taken for granted, and pulled together in a crisis. My husband did eventually (after 15 months!) find another excellent position in his field. I hope you have a similar outcome. </p>
<p>We all feel good about the decision made four years ago, but I do wonder if we still would had my H remained unemployed. The road we did not take might well have been the better one. We are sure some people thought we were out of our minds at the time. My only suggestion is that you consider asking your son what part of the cost difference he would be willing to take on himself, and make that a factor in this choice.</p>
<p>LuckyDucky,
As a parent, I absolutely think $200K debt is too much for an undergraduate education. We were in a similar situation last year. My son was accepted to a very expensive school ($200K range) that was his first choice with virtually no assistance. He was also accepted everywhere else he applied with generous financial aid. </p>
<p>We wanted him to go to his first choice, but we would have to take out alot of loans and/or raid our retirement fund. Our daily living would be very tight. Our son said that he wouldn't put us in that financial situation and chose to attend a more affordable school. It was a very kind and mature decision on his part.</p>
<p>Guess what? He is perfectly happy and successful this year. He has been challanged academically, has fun extracurricular activities and made some really nice friends. There are smart and motivated students where ever you go.</p>
<p>Know what else? We have had some unexpected expenses that came up since last year, and I am very glad we are not pressed to the wall with college debt.</p>
<p>Now that he has saved us all that money, we intend to help him pay for graduate school as much as possible. He will be able to start out his adult life enencumbered with huge monthly debt...maybe get a nice car or a house.</p>
<p>Every decision is a fork in the road, and as some one else mentioned in an earlier post, we all try to justify our past decisions. But in this case, where the financial difference was huge, I think we made the right one for us. :) Good luck with yours! It shows alot of foresight that you are weighing the options.</p>
<p>Dad23, I empathize with you. Despite our preferences (that family members will always understand the priorities and limitations of the other members, and that a spirit of mutual charity and support will always prevail without having to argue for it or enforce it) sometimes one can't distinguish "optimal parenting" from "tough love."</p>
<p>We'd always like to lead with our supportive and nurturing side, but sometimes we have to be the authority and make a rational, practical decision despite their desires. It does hurt when they don't make an effort to understand our reasons and instead choose to cop an infantile attitude. However, we should insist that our needs (in this case your retirement and maintaining a reasonable quality of life) are just as important as theirs. We have to make sure that we give from our emotional and material abundance, not succumb to the mistaken belief that our children's desires should come before our genuine needs. That's just teaching them to be selfish monsters, and can lead to failed adult relationships and deserted older parents in nursing homes. Almost all of us are guilty of this tendency to some extent. Stand firm - this is a character lesson, and you are the key player for his learning that lesson. If you have explained the situation based on a detailed analysis of your family's financial needs, and shared the figures with him, but he's still showing anger, answer his anger the way you would answer a toddler asking the impossible: "I wish I could afford any college in the world,and four years of graduate school too." (I wish I could fly you to the moon).</p>
<p>200k is a lot. Don't kid yourself. It is a lot. It's more than some people's income for 10 years. "The money is there" is very vague to me. He might mean that he is willing to take on 200k of debt for you to go to your dream school. </p>
<p>Scraping together 200k in savings is no easy task to do. Hell, saving up 20k is hard to do. So I think it's imperative that you find out if they do have 200k in savings for your education or are willing to go in debt 200k for you. </p>
<p>The answer to that question should help you decide if you're worried about your parents' finances.</p>
<p>PS I'm not a parent but I thought I'd drop my 2 cents into your 200k.</p>
<p>Dad23</p>
<p>I have two kids who often don't understand "money issues" but I can't imagine that they would be stubborn in the event that their dad lost his job (H is the only money earner). There must be something more going on here. Perhaps you son is somehow really just angry that you haven't been able to find a job yet. Could that be it? Kids are naive about how hard it can be for a "middle aged professional" to find employment after a layoff.</p>
<p>Usually a job loss by the major earner is enuf to shake up even the most naive person in the house. As someone who also has two kids in Catholic high school, I know that my kids would be happy (and surprised) if we were able to keep them at the school if their dad lost his job. </p>
<p>What is really going on here? Have you kept the financial problems secret from your kids? Have you tried to "keep up the appearances" that nothing has changed since you were laid off? If so, you need to have a family meeting and lay it all on the table.</p>
<p>^My above post I meant the 20k was more than some people's income for 10 years.</p>
<p>Quote:
I have two kids who often don't understand "money issues" but I can't imagine that they would be stubborn in the event that their dad lost his job (H is the only money earner). There must be something more going on here. Perhaps you son is somehow really just angry that you haven't been able to find a job yet. Could that be it? Kids are naive about how hard it can be for a "middle aged professional" to find employment after a layoff.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, when my company lopped off over 6,000 heads, I fell into a depression. It is probably easy for a kid to understand depression (and physical illness, the symptoms of which are mostly subjective) and how it can cripple. I do believe he thinks I was idling at his expense. In all honesty, I was near burnout at work -- a long story -- so this might have been a year for change one way or another. Unfortunately for my son, it was a bad year for change. Only in the past 6 weeks or so have I found the strength necessary for a real job search. Encountering past colleagues/prospective employers who said "if only we knew you were available..." comes as welcome validation but is, at the same time, grist for a million "I shouldas." </p>
<p>I want to thank all of you for your understanding, support, and good suggestions -- but I do want to make one thing clear. When my wife glanced at some of the responses to my original post (before she read the post), she wondered if I had portrayed my son as some kind of monster. While alien in many recognizably teenage ways, he is dear to me -- so much so that once we make the decision official, you can expect to find me writing about the huge hole his absence will leave in my daily life. I'm still getting used to his taking the car and staying out late with his friends. I'm not ready to be elsewhere when he gets his first girlfriend (he's a looker, but shy). And I'm not ready to watch football on Sunday without him (my friends are poor substitutes when it comes to acute commentary on the action and the protocols of fandom.) It's not fair: just when they get interesting to talk to, they don't want to talk to you. I simply never read the warning on the side of the box he came in. Someone congratulated me for foresight. Thanks, but that was a miss by a mile.</p>
<p>To luckyducky: 200K is a lot to most people, and parents who offer to make great sacrifices sometimes underestimate the sacrifices they are making. I don't know what risks they face. That's for you to judge. Maybe, and I'm only saying maybe, this is a time for YOU to exercise "tough love." Their offer is made out of deep love for you, I am sure. Just determine for yourself whether it is wisdom or folly, because parents are just as capable of folly as kids. </p>
<p>Twice in 2 weeks, I read that couples should have $1.5 million socked away for retirement. I had to laugh, bitterly. Most middle-class families have less than $30,000 in the bank. Generous monthly pensions have shrunk to piddling ones or even more piddling contributions to 401Ks. God knows what will become of this country. What happens when the second job goes (or, in my case, the first job)? What happens when the housing bubble bursts? Medical science is prolonging life. But at what cost? And what quality of life? I fear that we baby-boomers are headed into a long-term care crisis of unimaginable proportions. We AND our children, for who else will care for us? Not the dwindling population of taxpayers. </p>
<p>They should teach economics in high school. And current events. But they don't. Not in my experience. They teach SATs and how to improve one's score so as to be admitted into the "best" schools. Should luckyducky be weighted down by these immense societal problems? As budding citizens, our kids will soon have votes to weigh in on these problems. But as young adults, they should struggle NOW with how these issues might hit home. When I hear "What can you expected from a 17-year-old," I think "Good question! What can you expect? Luckyducky understands enough to ask. Perhaps she went to a better high school than the average kid. :-)</p>
<p>Dad23</p>