<p>Stick to the 10 minutes. It is what the school is ASKING you to do. So do it. I understand that the piece being prepared is longer, but the school has told you …TEN minutes. Why would you want to make the wrong impression by sending in something longer when clearly they have stated…TEN minutes is the limit.</p>
<p>DS told me that during live auditions, if you exceeded the time limit, they simply stopped you. Of course, sometimes they stop you anyway. My guess is that if your CD exceeds the time, they will not listen to the whole thing.</p>
<p>momrath, yes he thinks about small LACs, too. As far as I know, Amherst is on his current list. He looks he spent much time in discussing about it with his classmates. I think Williams is very nice, too. I suggested him to look at Swarthmore just because two of my friends whom I met in a non-profit music organization graduated from there and heard good things about the college. If musicians generally have advantage in admission at small LACs, he should look at more small LACs. Thank you for the suggestion.
thumper1, thank you for the advice. I will tell him to plan recordings more carefully in line with application requirements.
“Conservatory quality” sounds nice. His orchestra includes actual Julliard and MSM students (its membership is 12 to 22) and many high school student members plan to apply to Julliard, Curtis and other conservatories. From his former SQ in its chamber program, the violist was accepted to Curtis and another violinist was accepted to MSM. My S was considered at the similar level through the audition. May I assume he is eligible to submitt CD?</p>
<p>I’ll just throw in that as a candidate from NYC, your son, if he is white or Asian is in a very, very competitive pool. I’d worry more about improving the SAT scores first for the schools you are mentioning.</p>
<p>hmom5, yes I am worrying about his SAT scores too. But I can’t ignore about EC, teacher’s rec and essays as long as they are also factors of admission.
Maybe we should move to other thread and solve the question why so many asian students with perfect SAT scores often rejected at top schools and 10% of 200pts lower scorers are accepted at the same institutions.</p>
<p>I’m not sure why you are worried about his SAT scores for MIT. The scores place him within the middle 50 percentile for all sections, leaning more towards the 75 percentile range. Here’s the middle 50 percentile scores, taken from the 2007-8 Common Data Set:</p>
<p>“One problem is that many people often don’t know the difference between “conservatory quality musician” and above average musician.” Amen. </p>
<p>Rule of thumb at my sons’ music school is “if you would send it to a conservatory as a pre-audition CD, then send it - else don’t”</p>
<p>They started several years ago to discourage the “above average” musicians from going through the time, trouble and expense of making a proper demo.</p>
<p>Its not that there won’t be places to play for these musicians, its just that the CD won’t enhance their application, and can potentially hurt. (Wonderful rec and awards for music will carry more weight with admissions without a CD that the music dept deems “nice, but nothing special”.)</p>
<p>I would worry because being in the way overrepresented NYC pool without a hook means you want everything over the 75th percentile for any real chance at top colleges. I’ve watched this pool at top colleges for years, it’s brutal.</p>
<p>skrlvr, looking at statics of acceptance rate for each score ranges, I think middle 50% students must have something else other than SAT which made them accepted. It may be EC, Teachers recs, strengthness of their essays or something else. If my S doesn’t have such factors, he has to raise his SAT scores to increase his chance.</p>
<p>“One problem is that many people often don’t know the difference between “conservatory quality musician” and above average musician.”</p>
<p>what exactly is a…“conservatory quality musician?”</p>
<p>sorry to be dense…this whole music thing is kind of new to me. ask me a question though about women’s basketball recruiting and i can maybe help ;)</p>
<p>for a teenage instrumentalist (trombone)…other than school and community bands…what does he do next to ready himself to apply to conservatories, julliard among them ? local youth symphony, local jazz workshop? what are goals to try to reach during these last 3 years of high school? how does he take it to higher levels? </p>
<p>sorry to op…not trying to hi-jack thread…there are some knowlegeable posters here…and it seems like a good time to ask some questions :)</p>
<p>hmom5, I think I should communicate about this with GC. My son’s school is composed of 80% white, 15% asian, 5% black students and still more than 40% go to ivy or similar level schools. I have never heard from the school about white and asian disadvantage in such schools’ admission.</p>
<p>40% of the class at top colleges have hooks. They are recruited athletes, legacies, URMs. After that they want kids from 50 states and as many countries as possible.</p>
<p>NYC is filled with legacies and top URMs. After they accommodate those kids there is very little space for the many highly qualified unhooked applicants at the many strong magnets and privates.</p>
<p>Fiddlin, I sympathize. My kids went to 3 different schools which all sent 30% plus to ivies.</p>
<p>It all worked out for them the end, but my DS with above 75th percentile everything and top ECs including RSI and lots of research did not get into MIT undergrad and my DD with about 75th percentile everything did not get into Amherst as a freshman.</p>
<p>It’s hard to answer this question (as others have said) without knowing the specific schools where your son is thinking about applying. Anyways, onto the only school I have knowledge about: Swarthmore, where I was a music major. I know that the music professors listen to and rate the performance CDs. Since we have a good music program but not an over-abundance of musicians (and a symphony orchestra to fill) a CD of excellent quality - like your sons sounds like - would help in admissions. I assume that other schools like Swarthmore, i.e. other LACs with orchestras and without famous music programs, would take a similar approach to the CDs.</p>
<p>So the consensus for an arts supplement seems to be (for a very good or excellent musician but not a prodigy):</p>
<p>HYP: Don’t bother, it won’t help and may hurt.
Next tier Ivies like Columbia, and also Stanford: Won’t hurt and may well help.
Top LACs like Williams and Swarthmore: Definite boost.
Most other LACs and universities: May be very helpful.</p>
<p>For OP’s son, given the subsequent info provided, I think the arts supplement (less than 10 min) for MIT would be entirely appropriate.</p>
<p>It’s definitely common sense to find out who you might be competing with at a particular school, as well as to know what the rules are for submitting an arts supplement at each school (and following them).</p>
<p>But, jumping on the small school bandwagon again, I’d like to reiterate that most students at a LAC with an interest and talent in music are NOT music majors. They are not amazingly accomplished and dedicated musicians. Schools really need kids to participate in music as an EC. </p>
<p>So, this idea of having to be a really exceptional musician to get any benefit from submitting an arts supplement - at most schools - is just not true.</p>
<p>I looked at Williams’ website briefly. There are 10 music majors listed for the class of 2009, out of a total of around 535 kids. The music department site lists 12 different student ensembles, choirs, orchestras, etc. There are also at least another 4 a cappella groups. So, with 40 music majors in the whole school and places for many more scores of students in various groups, the College must bring in many students with an interest in music. They’re not going to penalize an applicant if they hear a cd that’s not extraordinary. Again, my experience has been with LACs and a few universities. </p>
<p>After athletics, I’d say music is the EC most important to the vibrancy of student life and probably second in popularity among the students, both in participation and as audience members.</p>
<p>“^ I disagree. If you made it into your All State band or orchestra, you are good enough to get an admissions boost at most schools.”</p>
<p>???</p>
<p>My point exactly - I think…</p>
<p>If you are an All-State Musician, in many ways that speaks for itself. … but … you probably also have a rec from your music teacher or band director saying what a great musician you are … and you probably talked about your passion for music somewhere in your app. - all of this looks good and helps your application. … and is and of by itself sufficient. </p>
<p>You don’t need to send a CD unless you are trying to demonstrate something above and beyond what’s already in you app.</p>
<p>Harvard’s take:
“Supplementary materials or portfolios are neither required nor expected. Such materials may be submitted, but you should do so only if you have unusual talent. Students with truly exceptional talents or achievements may send music recordings, … for the consideration of the Admissions Committee.” </p>
<p>If you can knock them dead with a CD, by all means do it. But - if you follow all your written material up with a supplemental CD that does not meet the expectations of the Music Faculty reviewing it, such a circumstance can’t help but diminish your app - and have them question either your objectivity or ability to read/follow instructions.</p>
<ul>
<li>and if you are an All State Musician and can’t produce a recording worthy of sending as a pre-audition to a conservatory, it will not meet the expectations of the faculty reviewing it.</li>
</ul>
You are wrong about this. At least at 2 schools I am familiar with in this regard (Stanford and Swarthmore), only a recommendation by the college’s own music department will result in any “help” in admissions. The only way to get this recommendation is to send in an audition that will be reviewed by the music department.</p>
<p>I know that at Stanford, at least until 2 or so years ago, the auditions were rated on 1-6 scale by the faculty. Those who scored 1-3 were “recommended”. Of course, this did not guarantee admission. But it moved your file from a general pile of thousands into a much smaller pile of files of students whom someone in the university actually wants. That is a HUGE leg up at a highly selective school.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I can’t “prove” you wrong, but I am pretty sure that none of my children are anywhere near conservatory quality, All-State or not… And the recording that my kid made was on a cheap prehistoric tape recorder, not in a CD recording studio. Based on the correspondence that followed, the music faculty liked it anyway…</p>
<p>I completely disagree with the above. The criteria for attaining All State varies by state and by instrument. The admissions folks aren’t idiots. They know this. Now…if you were a soloist or concertmaster of the All State orchestra, that would be something different.</p>
<p>Again…I’ll say…DD was a state ranked oboe/English horn player who played first chair in All State and a highly visible youth symphony precollege orchestra. She played regularly with the civic symphony in this area as a soloist. In addition, she also was a substitute for symphony players who were in things like musical theater orchestras but needed to miss a performance here and there. DD was their first call. This didn’t help her a LICK in college admissions…but her school is mighty happy to have her in the orchestra there and she does get free instrument lessons and a $750 a year ensemble scholarship. Every penny helps.</p>
<p>“You are wrong about this. At least at 2 schools I am familiar with in this regard (Stanford and Swarthmore), only a recommendation by the college’s own music department will result in any “help” in admissions. The only way to get this recommendation is to send in an audition that will be reviewed by the music department.”</p>
<p>You aren’t really saying that to have an all state accolade in anything would not be looked upon favorably by admissions, are you? It demonstrates passion and focus if nothing else and can’t help but be a plus in the overall admissions package.</p>
<p>How do you know your daughter wasn’t helped in college admissions by her talents- at all? Honestly, except for the fact that you seem so convinced of it, I’d have reached the opposite conclusion. </p>
<p>My kids have pretty voices and good ears, but so do a lot of kids. I’m convinced their musical involvement and accomplishments (hard to compare between instrumentalists and singers, but I’d say singers are more a dime a dozen) helped them in their admissions. I think their supplements were fully part of the application review process, and this EC helped them, as did many other parts of their applications.</p>
<p>Nobody told me or my children that yes, we admitted you because of your musical ability, and of course I’d never expect that. They had to have the expected grades, test scores, and other accomplishments for the schools they applied to, as well. But when my daughter tried out for voice lessons at her college, the instructor praised her cd submission - obviously it was listened to.</p>
<p>I guess I’m surprised the firmness of your conviction. Why shouldn’t an arts submission help, just as the essay might help, or a science award might help?</p>