How to deal with very bad parents?

<p>PG maks a good point about sometimes interacting with others “for them.” Not necessarily being dragged into a long, boring interaction in which you lose sight of yourself. But, people like to be ackowledged. Kept simple, it’s not fakery. We’re taking, in some cases, a minute- maybe less. At a minimum, you try to set a pleasant rep through a smile or a greeting (or PG’s other examples) and that’s often good enough. When someone less interesting does “buttonhole” you, you have at hand a few graceful ways to exit. When you have to go to that department dinner or some other function, you try to politely grin and bear it and offer some tolerable conversation. (Because, in plenty of situations, the end justifies the means.) And, you find the right private places for any anger.</p>

<p>I’ve worked with some brilliant engineers, even some extremely ornery outliers. What surprised me is how, as I got to know them, the orneriness seemed to be a mask- just the way they acted in the situations most related to their work. Behind that, they had surprisingly rich and satisfying lives. And, great senses of humor. So, OP, try to see if some of those you do admire are also “more than meets the eye” and give you a sense of the balance you might someday find. Might be interesting.</p>

<p>ps. all this talk about Aspergers and schizophrenia and who knows what is spinning my head. We should be cautious about labels.</p>

<p>With all due respect calmom, the one who is spouting nonsense is you. Please refrain from the insults and stick to talking about law and dyslexia. And the one getting the last laugh is the OP, who seems to be craving attention on these boards.</p>

<p>The differential diagnostic criteria of NLD vs Aspergers vs ASD gets discussed frequently amongst the experts in the field on one of my professional listservs. Again-- for the non mental health professionals here-- please stop the pop psychology.</p>

<p>Maybe you should get off of those psychiatric listservs and spend some time actually talking to people with Aspergers. </p>

<p>Oh, and please let me know what part of the phrase, “decreased interest in social interactions.” equates with “WANT to have social relationships.”</p>

<p>Au contraire, calmom- I will stick to discussing the accurate diagnostic criteria with the experts in the field who know what they are talking about. I will not waste another second addressing this with people who have ZERO training or expertise in the field. Way, WAY too many people are inaccurately labelled by people who “think” they know what they are talking about. Good night.</p>

<p>One of the pitfalls of online forums is that you have no clue what the level of expertise, background or experience is of the people who post. People with well-developed interpersonal social skills, are careful to refrain from flinging personal insults, online as well as off. Also, in terms of basic social communication skills, it never comes off well for a person to proclaim himself an expert and then insult and demean anyone who offers an opinion that differs from theirs. </p>

<p>I haven’t suggested that I am in a position to diagnose the OP. He has self-disclosed characteristics that are consistent with a number of possibilities, including Aspergers. I said it would be a good idea for him to explore that issue with a qualified therapist. I also said that a therapist could help him with his specific goal of “dealing with” his parents. </p>

<p>It’s obvious to me that the OP doesn’t want to go to a therapist in order to have someone “fix” him or label him as crazy. I understand that, I wouldn’t either. I think its normal for him to want to avoid that situation, and it’s quite possible that his parents have said things to him that lead him to believe that is what they expect a therapist to do. </p>

<p>But I do think that there are diagnostic categories that would help him move in the direction of living the life he prefers… Whether or not he wants social relationships with his peers is his business. All I’ve said is that it would probably be useful for him to talk to a therapist and get a proper diagnosis.</p>

<p>I don’t know whether this has already been posted or not, but this is from the DSM IV criteria for diagnosis of Asperger’s:</p>

<p><a href=“I”>quote</a> Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:</p>

<p>(A) marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction</p>

<p>(B) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level</p>

<p>(C) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interest or achievements with other people, (e.g… by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)</p>

<p>(D) lack of social or emotional reciprocity

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The OP has told us that he fits B (says he has no friends and never has) and his answers to specific questions about social engagement suggest that he has C & D as well. No information has been provided online about A, or about the other characteristics listed under DSM IV 299.80. Presumably that is something the OP could discuss in private with a qualified therapist.</p>

<p>The diagnostic criteria specified in the ICD-10 are somewhat different, but overlapping. The proposed DSM V would eliminate the Asperger’s diagnosis entirely. (Noteworthy in part because anyone who can read would be well aware that the precise diagnostic criteria is an area where professionals have yet to come to a consensus.)</p>

<p>Recommended reading:
[The</a> New Wave of Autism Rights Activists – New York Magazine](<a href=“http://nymag.com/news/features/47225/]The”>The New Wave of Autism Rights Activists -- New York Magazine - Nymag)</p>

<p>Very long article about the conflict between the autism rights/neurodiversity movement and the cure-seekers, but here’s a pertinent quote (from the last page):</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>From shrinkrap’s first link <a href=“http://www.child-psych.org/2010/02/autism-and-aspergers-in-the-dsm-v-going-beyond-the-politics.html[/url]”>http://www.child-psych.org/2010/02/autism-and-aspergers-in-the-dsm-v-going-beyond-the-politics.html&lt;/a&gt;

</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=97#[/url]”>http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=97#&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Proposed *Revision
Rationale
Severity
DSM-IV
Please see the rationale section for Autistic Disorder (Autism Spectrum Disorder) for more details.</p>

<p>In making the*recommendation to delete Asperger’s disorder, the following questions were considered:</p>

<p>Q.1. Have the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria for Asperger Disorder worked?</p>

<p>The ‘Asperger’ label has proved popular, ‘acceptable’, and has widened recognition of autism spectrum disorder (ASD) in combination with good language and intelligence. In addition, the introduction of this diagnostic entity has achieved the intended aim of prompting research into possible differences between this and other subgroups of PDD, with more than 500 published articles on Asperger syndrome.</p>

<p>1.1. Do the DSM-IV criteria work in clinical practice?</p>

<p>A number of published papers have argued that the DSM-IV Asperger disorder criteria do not work in the clinic (e.g., Mayes et al., 2001; Miller & Ozonoff, 2000; Leekam, Libby, Wing, Gould & Gillberg, 2000). Specifically, key problems exist in applying the current criteria:</p>

<p>·******** Early language details are hard to establish in retrospect, especially for older children and adults; average age of first diagnosis is late (7 years according to Mandell et al. 2005;* 11yrs, Howlin & Asgharian, 1999).</p>

<p>·******** *The trumping rule means most/all Asperger cases should strictly be diagnosed as having ‘Autistic disorder’ (Miller & Ozonoff, 2000; Bennett et al, 2008; Williams et al, 2008), although clinicians prefer to give the more specific term (Mahoney, et al.,1998)</p>

<p>o*** Specifically, since language delay is not a necessary criterion for Autistic disorder, to meet criteria for Asperger disorder (without being trumped by Autistic disorder), a person would need to fail to meet Communication criteria for Autistic disorder. In practice, the Communication criterion (B.2.) of “marked impairment in the ability to initiate or sustain a conversation with others” is typically met by even very able individuals fitting the Asperger picture.</p>

<p>As a result, ‘Asperger syndrome’ is used loosely with little agreement: e.g. Williams et al (2008) survey of 466 professionals reporting on 348 relevant cases, showed 44% of children given Asperger, PDD-NOS, atypical autism, or ‘other ASD’ label actually fulfilled criteria for Autistic Disorder (overall agreement between clinician’s label and DSM-IV criteria; Kappa 0.31).*</p>

<p>*</p>

<p>1.2. Do the DSM-IV criteria delineate a meaningful subgroup for research or practice?</p>

<p>In part because of the difficulty in applying the criteria (as outlined in section 1.1.), different research groups often uses different criteria,* and quality of early language milestone information is variable (Eisenmajer et al., 1996; Klin et al., 2005; Woodbury-Smith, Klin, & Volkmar, 2005).* Different criteria lead to different samples being identified (see Klin et al, 2005 comparison of 3 diagnostic approaches; also Kopra et al., 2008; Woodbury-Smith et al., 2005).
*</p>

<p>Research suggests early language criteria do not demarcate a distinct subgroup with different:
Course/outcome: Children with autism who develop fluent language have very similar trajectories and later outcomes to children with Asperger disorder (Bennett et al., 2008; Howlin, 2003; Szatmari et al., 2000) and the two conditions are indistinguishable by school-age (Macintosh & Dissanayake, 2004), adolescence (Eisenmajer, Prior, Leekam, Wing, Ong, Gould & Welham 1998; Ozonoff, South and Miller 2000) and adulthood (Howlin, 2003).
Cause/aetiology: Autism and Asperger syndrome co-occur in the same families (Bolton et al., 1994; Chakrabarti & Fombonne, 2001; Lauritsen et al., 2005; Ghaziuddin, 2005; Volkmar et al., 1998). No clear evidence to date of distinct aetiology.
Neuro-Cognitive profile: mixed evidence, for example some authors have reported worse motor functioning in Asperger than HFA (Klin et al., 1995; Rinehart et al, 2006), while others have not found significant group differences (Jansiewicz et al., 2006; Manjiviona & Prior, 1995; Miller & Ozonoff, 2000; Thede & Coolidge, 2007). Evidence is similarly mixed for differentiation of Asperger group by lower performance than verbal IQ profile (for, Klin et al, 1995; against, Barnhill et al., 2000; Gilchrist et al., 2001; Ozonoff, South & Miller, 2000; Spek et al., 2008), better theory of mind (for, Ozonoff et al, 2000 ; against, Dahlgren & Trillingsgaard, 1996;*********** Spek et al, in press JADD; Barbaro & Dissanayake 2007) or executive function (for, Rinehart et al, 2006; reviewed by Klin, McPartland & Volkmar, 2005 ; against, Miller & Ozonoff, 2000; Thede & Coolidge, 2007; Verte et al., 2006) .* Note the risk of circularity for group differences relating to verbal ability, since early language development (grouping criterion) is generally predictive of later language abilities (Paul & Cohen, 1984; Rutter, Greenfield & Lockyer, 1967; Rutter, Mawhood & Howlin, 1992).
Treatment needs/response: no empirical studies demonstrating the need for different treatments or different responses to the same treatment, and in clinical practice the same interventions are typically offered.*
Q.2. Does the existing research literature allow us to suggest new criteria to diagnose Asperger Disorder, in contrast to Autistic Disorder/ASD?</p>

<p>The current clinical and research consensus appears to be that Asperger disorder is part of the autism spectrum, although with possible over-use of the term it is quite likely that other (non-ASD) types of individuals have received this label.</p>

<p>Research field currently reflects two views:*</p>

<p>That Asperger disorder is not substantially different from other forms of ‘high functioning’ autism (HFA); i.e. Asperger’s is the part of the autism spectrum with good formal language skills and good (at least Verbal) IQ. Note that ‘HFA’ is itself a vague term, with underspecification of the area of ‘high functioning’ (performance IQ, verbal IQ, adaptation, or symptom severity).
That Asperger disorder is distinct from other subgroups within the autism spectrum (see Matson & Wilkins, 2008, review): e.g. Klin, et al. (2005) suggest the lack of differentiating findings reflects the need for a more stringent approach, with a more nuanced view of onset patterns and early language (e.g. one-sided verbosity, unusual circumscribed interests).
2.1. What are the proposed differences? How strong is the evidence?</p>

<p>Several recent comprehensive reviews of the topic are available (Howlin, 2003; Macintosh & Dissanayake, 2004; Matson & Wilkins, 2008; Witwer & Lecavalier, 2008). Matson & Wilkins (2008) suggest current criteria could work if refined and supplemented. However, the research literature to date is not able to provide strong, replicated support for new or modified criteria likely to distinguish a meaningfully different group with Asperger disorder versus autism with good (current) language and IQ. Witwer and Lecavalier’s (2008) perhaps more comprehensive review concludes there is little evidence that Aspergers is distinct, and that current IQ is the main differentiating factor. Bennett et al’s (2008) follow-up study suggests that language impairment at 6-8years might have greater prognostic value than early language milestones, and Szatmari et al (2009) argue (on the basis of later developmental trajectory) for a distinction between ASD with (autism) versus without (Aspergers) structural language impairment at 6-8 years.</p>

<p>The draft criteria for ASD proposed by the Neurodevelopmental disorders workgroup would include dimensions of severity that include current language functioning and intellectual level/disability.</p>

<p>*</p>

<p>Q.3. <em>If Asperger disorder does not appear in DSM-V as a separate diagnostic category, how will</em> continuity and clarity be maintained for those with the diagnosis?</p>

<p>The aim of the draft criteria is that every person who has significant impairment in social-communication and RRBI should meet appropriate diagnostic criteria. *Language impairment/delay is not a necessary criterion for diagnosis of ASD, and thus anyone who shows the Asperger type pattern of good language and IQ but significantly impaired social-communication and repetitive/restricted behavior and interests, who might previously have been given the Asperger disorder diagnosis, should now meet criteria for ASD, and be described dimensionally. The workgroup aims to provide detailed symptom examples suitable for all ages and language levels, so that ASD will not be missed by clinicians in adults of average or superior IQ who are experiencing clinical levels of difficulty.</p>

<p>There may be some individuals with subclinical features of Asperger/ASD who seek out a diagnosis of ‘Asperger Disorder’ in order to understand themselves better (perhaps following an autism diagnosis in a relative), rather than because of clinical-level impairment in everyday life. While such a use of the term may be close to Hans Asperger’s reference to a personality type, it is outside the scope of DSM, which explicitly concerns clinically-significant and impairing disorders.* ‘Asperger-type’, like ‘Kanner-type’, may continue to be a useful shorthand for clinicians describing a constellation of features, or area of the multi-dimensional space defined by social/communication impairments, repetitive/restricted behaviour and interests, and IQ and language abilities.</p>

<p>Re post #188: That quote (about Aspergers “would be” characterized by interest in social relations, etc.) refers to a proposal by Fred Volkmar & his Yale team, referred to as the “Klin” criteria because it comes from a 2005 research journal article (Klin, A., Pauls, D., Schultz, R., & Volkmar, F. (2005). Three Diagnostic Approaches to Asperger Syndrome: Implications for Research Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders, 35 (2), 221-234 )</p>

<p>That is NOT the current diagnostic standard and is not likely to be used or revived in the DSM V. As the extensive quotes that Shrinkrap provided show, the current consensus opinion for purposes of the DSM V seems to be that the autism/Aspergers distinction is not useful, and focus should instead be on level of impairment. </p>

<p>I would assume that the DSM IV or ICD 10 are the appropriate sources to ascertain current diagnostic criteria, but if clinicians are going to pick & choose based on the work of various research teams, then I don’t really see the basis on which one person can argue that the Klin criteria take precedence over other formulations, such as the Szatmari criteria. I mean, the whole point of the DSM is to try to publish something based on a collaborative process. </p>

<p>The standard approach in the past for differentiating between autism & Asperger’s has been the presence or absence of early childhood language difficulties. The Klin study took issue with that distinction, but it merely suggested a different, arbitrary formulation. Unfortunately, there have been no satisfactory diagnostic criteria thus far, precisely because there is such a wide variation in traits and history of individuals with ASD. It historically has been a nightmare for parents of severely impaired children to get a firm diagnosis because their kid has a mix & match set of traits that show up on different charts.</p>

<p>Why yes, calmom, this proposal for the new DSM V diagnosis is put forth by the experts in this area, at the Yale child study center because **They proposed a new diagnostic criteria for Asperger’s disorder that was more inline Asperger’s original 1944 observation of his cases. **. They wrote one of the premier books in this field [Amazon.com:</a> Asperger Syndrome (9781572305342): Ami Klin, Sara S. Sparrow, Fred R. Volkmar: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Asperger-Syndrome-Ami-Klin/dp/product-description/1572305347]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/Asperger-Syndrome-Ami-Klin/dp/product-description/1572305347) Unfortunately, Sarah Sparrow, one of the authors and experts in this area, passed away last year. She was a lovely, funny, clever woman. </p>

<p>And for sake of completeness, the full current criteria for the diagnosis of Aspergers is as follows (post 186 list only section 1 of 5) [DSM</a> IV Diagnostic Criteria for Asperger’s Syndrome](<a href=“http://www.autreat.com/dsm4-aspergers.html]DSM”>DSM IV Diagnostic Criteria for Asperger's Syndrome)</p>

<p>As I made very clear, the OP only provided information related to section I of DSM IV; therefore I suggested that it would be a good idea for him to discuss his situation with a therapist, and there is no need for us to speculate on the other 4 sections, which may or may not apply. He mentioned having had a bad experience with a therapist when he was younger, but didn’t say why his parents thought therapy was needed at that time. Perhaps it was because of behaviors that fit the other criteria.</p>

<p>Hans Asperger described a pattern based on 4 case studies: "The pattern included “a lack of empathy, little ability to form friendships, one-sided conversation, intense absorption in a special interest, and clumsy movements.” The OP didn’t mention if he is physically clumsy. All the rest seems pretty clearly to apply.</p>

<p>Another note:</p>

<p>

Source: [Aspergers</a> Syndrome and Bullying: Teaching Aspie Children to Identify Teasing and Intimidation | Suite101.com](<a href=“http://michaelmcgrath.suite101.com/aspergers_syndrome_and_bullying-a66366]Aspergers”>http://michaelmcgrath.suite101.com/aspergers_syndrome_and_bullying-a66366)</p>

<p>When you are dealing with a teenager or young adult who may possibly have Asperger’s, it is pretty safe to assume a high likelihood that the kid was a victim of bullying at a younger age. Some people who are mistreated develop an aversion to the situations where the mistreatment occurred. Because of their poor social skills, such as inability to read body language or correctly discern intent from facial expressions or voice tones, an Asperger’s kid would have a hard time figuring out which kids were likely to bully him. Logically, the safest thing to do might be to avoid everyone. A socially inept kid who very much wanted friendships at age 9 or 10 could figure out by the time he was 14 that it simply wasn’t worth the risk. To me, a young adult’s statement that he “never” had friends suggests pretty strongly that there was some major unpleasantness going on when he was younger. </p>

<p>I don’t see how you can draw conclusions one way or another about someone without knowing more about their background & history. Certainly not by inventing a new criteria of exclusion because you happen to like a theory put forth in a research article better than the published diagnostic criteria. That’s why I think the OP should see a competent therapist and explore the matter further.</p>

<p>I don’t see how you can draw conclusions one way or another about someone without knowing more about their background & history. </p>

<p>No one but a pro should be leading OP to these waters. And, I believe a pro would not diagnose, on a forum, based on a few postings. Can we move back to general advice and outrage? I am aware that a few posters do have professional mental health backgrounds. I am not one of them. In some case, it does not matter how much we know, how much we have read. We need to mind the venue.</p>

<p>Well said, lookingforward.</p>

<p>The OP already announced in his very first post that, with respect to appointments made for him by his parents, " I’ve intentionally skipped all appointments they have made with a therapist, despite being harshly reprimanded by them". So in all likelihood, no amount of encouragement from well-intentioned posters to “get thee to a therapist” is apt to make much of a difference at this point.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Maybe not. But there is a chance that it will help. (Let’s face it. Kids are more likely to take advise from non-parents. Especially if they have time to read and contemplate.) If not helpful to the OP, perhaps the theme of input will positively impact a different quiet reader with similar issues. </p>

<p>It is sometimes difficult (even for teams of professionals treating a patient) to separate personality traits vs disorders etc. As a laymen parent, my concerns are prioritized toward issues that cause life struggles and/or family strife. I am hopeful that OP (and any other teens in similar situation reading this) will someday be open-minded to counseling or at least civil conversations with parents.</p>

<p>As annoyed as I get at know-it-alls (and that’s the stance OP started with,) I see a difference in his tone as the thread evolved. As I mentioned, I’ve worked with many outliers and many of them had successful lives. It’s when there is conflict, when wheels feel off the track, when anger dominates, when others complain or cause issues, whatever, that a good therapist can help. </p>

<p>As some mentioned, it’s not always about finding fault or labeling. Some of the outliers I knew surprised me by having therapists- just as a handrail, so to speak, someone who would listen without judging and occasionally offer ideas about how to view things differently, etc. As they passed through the initial stages, they did not have the burden of a weekly schedule.</p>

<p>The experience for a younger child can be quite different, because they have no (or very little) insight of their own- and no control. And, who knows what climate of blame or frustration parents and teachers have created. Over 18, there is privacy vis-a-vis parent involvement, (at least in the US.) It’s very important for teens and young adults to find someone experienced with this age group. They understand so much about the pressures and patterns. That can mean changing counselors (which can be a source of stress.) In general, it’s worth it.</p>

<p>Actually, I’ve been thinking about the fact that the OP even made this post is indicative of the OP’s knowledge that he does, indeed, have a problem and is seeking help in this forum because it is a more comfortable environment for him.</p>

<p>The OP started this thread asking how to deal with his parents. He did indicate later that he might be willing to talk to his school (assuming academic) counselor/advisor. Thats a great start. Often a person has to be uncomfortable, unhappy, in pain or had some struggle or identified concern or problem to help them recognize that seeing a therapist may be of assistance. If the OP is content with his lifestyle, there may be little impetus to change. However, if he is passed over for important opportunities ( eg research assistant) or encounters problems with classmates or faculty, he may be more motivated to pursue support or assistance.</p>

<p>Many college students struggle with social skill or adjustment issues. Many college counseling centers offer groups for anxiety or social skills. Perhaps the OP might consider participating in one of these, if the thought of interacting with a group of peers is not too uncomfortable.</p>

<p>Pizzagirl said:</p>

<p>“I don’t see your point - Majjestic didn’t say anything to contradict any of your points. He just said he and his prof had an intellectually stimulating discussion on the topic. He didn’t say he and his prof had had the discussion to end all discussions.”</p>

<p>You obviously missed my point. If a conversation about a recent study from the European Organization for Nuclear Research was interesting to the OP, it is illustrative of the type of conversation (i.e., socializing) he could have with many others.</p>

<p>englishjw said:</p>

<p>“If you are serious, there are many truly fascinating conversations to be had just on this single topic.”</p>

<p>

Yes, but it can be hard to know which others or to keep a conversation on track. He knows when he approaches the prof after class that the prof will either be interested in discussing that topic, or if not, there will be an easy and courteous way to terminate the conversation. He is in control of the topic choice with the prof, precisely because the prof is not his “friend” but a teacher of a specific subject.</p>