How would you advise your daughter re: career?

Everything @oldfort says is true and well-thought-out (as her posts almost always are).

And yet…some women (and perhaps some men, although in our culture they would have a hard time admitting it) feel an intense desire to be their child’s primary caregiver – a role that is not compatible with doing much paid work for the first five years or so and most likely not compatible with full-time work for considerably longer (especially if the family includes two or more children).

How can this desire be reconciled with @oldfort’s good sense?

One of my D’s is a teenager, late teens. Other 3 are little.

It was really easy with the oldest girl. I have not even noticed how she grew up. Easy child.

This thread has so many interesting posts and I’ve enjoyed reading everyone’s story. I wanted to jump in and add my 2 cents. I spent 8 years getting post high school education to be qualified for a job in my field and have spent most of the time since then as a SAHM.
I moved here right after finishing my undergraduate studies to be with H and hence hadn’t worked at all. As my degree was from a different country, for licensing requirements I decided to go to graduate school instead of looking for work immediately.
I took a semester off when I had my daughter and then went back to finish my degree. We(H and I- we had no family help) juggled the sick days and H’s travel schedule and somehow made it all work. I planned to stay at home one year(against advice from everyone in my family and my friends) with my daughter and then look for work. Things didn’t happen that way. I became pregnant with our second child, licensing requirements in my field changed and my job flexibility went down because of the years and hours I would have to put in to be on the way to my own practice and better $. Daycare for 2 kids would cost more than I would make the first few years and I would need to work long hours. I allowed these and other reasons(all mine) to end my job hunting for a while.
Fast forward a few years, I started job hunting again. My field had changed dramatically in terms of what qualifications an entry-level worker would need. Employers found my skill-set lacking. I went back to taking classes at the community college and then started looking again. The recession hit and my chances of getting a job went from slim to none. Life happens.
For you, OP, I can’t stress enough how important it is to keep your skills current when you’re married and having kids, even by working part time at the cost of future promotion.
It doesn’t have to happen this way, of course. I have friends who stayed at home with their kids like I did and found jobs in their fields by starting low on the totem pole and working their way up to a position they’re happy with. It didn’t happen to me.
But I’m learning to be ok with it slowly. H has been supportive of my decision and has had a good job that we haven’t needed a second income. It does mean that we can’t afford the big house, the fancy car and extravagant vacations that our friends can but that has never bothered us much. I do regret not putting to use my 8+ years of study into a career.

So I tell my daughter this. And I don’t see why I would tell my S any differently. Bless his heart, though, at 17, he seems be ready to take up cudgels on behalf of his non-existent wife when I bring up the topic.
Make sure you have and keep a job that can support you and your children. Marriages can end but responsibilities don’t.
Work for a few years before having kids. (As D is planning to go to graduate school after working for a couple of years, I tell her to plan for that as well. Marriage and children need to wait till she is done with that part of her life. Working for a few years before having kids means that it may be more feasible for her to go part-time for a while when the children are young.)
Support your spouse in what s/he wants to do. If s/he wants to stay at home with the kids for few years, s/he should be prepared to be the primary breadwinner. If both want to have a career, they need to be ready to juggle schedules and put the kids first. Building a family together is worth the struggles. (The only thing I’m not sure about my S is whether he would be a SAHD if his wife’s career needs him to be one).
I see going part-time when the children are young as a necessary evil for at least one parent. My sister-in-law took 1 year off to be with each kid and is now working part-time. She puts in the hours of a full-time employee and is paid far less. However, it gives her the flexibility she needs for her kids and keeps her employment history continuous.

OP, it’s a good thing that you’re thinking about this so early. Hope you take inspiration from all these great posts and different POVs and find your own wonderful path.

“One can’t be forever “financially independent”. Sooner or later you have to depend on your family. And if you don’t have it?”

I’ll turn this around: what if your family depends on YOU?

And of course many people are forever financially independent. My own parents, my in-laws, their friends… all of them have enough of a financial cushion that they don’t need money from anyone else.

PS Earlier, you claimed that eventually everyone is financially independent. So which is it?

My husband and I are in a good enough financial situation that we don’t expect to ever have to depend on our children for money. And if we need care in our old age, we can pay for it (although our kids might need to make the arrangements).

I think the fact that we only had two children played a big role in getting us to this good financial place in life.

Some people in such situations even leave some money to their children. Both my parents and my parents-in-law did. But then, each of them only had two children, too.

I’m a little taken aback to hear full-time parenting/staying home referred to as a sacrifice or “necessary evil”-- I tend to agree with @compmom that it’s a choice, not a burden. Obviously, no one would be forcing me to have kids or stay home with them if I did-- but a family is such a precious, precious gift that I hope to be blessed with one day.

I’m interested in the answer to @Marian 's question:

(Regarding oldfort’s post #84… I would be reluctant to take on a job with crazy long hours, family or no family. Work-life balance is crucial for me personally, and I don’t think that’s limited to moms/parents.)

And that description of SAHMs is nothing more than a stereotype. People would hit the floor in laughter if anyone attempted to describe me as a meek and mild woman or one who struggles with how to educate her children and prepare them for a strong future.

I am not needy nor am I dependent. I am a partner in a beautiful marriage full of life and love. Our home is full of very well-educated children with the ability to seek whatever future they want for themselves.

You do realize that it is the exact opposite of promoting strong women who are free to make their own decisions on how to live their lives by besmirching women who choose to be full-time moms as if somehow they are ignorant of their choices in life. Sorry. The only path to a pursuing a fulfilled life is not restricted by careers and outside jobs.

Re: Post #125
Let me clarify what I meant before my statement gets misrepresented any more. My phrasing was a little ambiguous.
I mean to say that it benefits the child if one of the parents can stay at home or go part-time when the child is young and the only “necessary evil” I see in that situation is the adverse effect it has on the career of the said parent.
For those who want to have a career and a family, the decision whether to stay at home or go part-time can be difficult because it can affect their long-term career.
It was for me. Especially when my daughter came home from the daycare every other week with one illness after another. I had to take care of her, my school assignments and my TA responsibilities as well as I could. At some point I felt I just wasn’t being the best mother I could be and that was important for me. More so than anything else, in spite of the occasional regret that I didn’t put my education to good use.

Thanks for the clarification @AnAsmom – sorry to have misrepresented your intent.

@Mom2aphysicsgeek – I certainly wasn’t putting down SAHMs. I was saying – and AM saying – that there’s value in working outside of the home beyond the paycheck.

Ironically, I could have stayed home when my children were born, but chose to work full time (part time wasn’t an option in my company/profession.)

And you know what? Thank god I did! Had we not have had my earnings and my benefits my family would have been in deep financial doo-doo when DH experienced totally unexpected professional sharp turns in his career. (A career known to be stable, btw.)

That was a significant lesson for me. For my family. Stuff happens. In this day and age, it happens more & more often. It’s better to be financially ready when it does. It sure saved us a lot of heartache knowing that we’d be OK.

Had I not been working, my daughter’s education would have been a question mark. My son would not have had the medical help he needed without the excellent health insurance I had.

It’s wonderful you have the means to stay home. But that is not a realistic option for tens of millions of American women.

I’m sorry. I believe a mother’s MAIN responsibility is to her children. And that means to FEED them. To give them the means to gain an EDUCATION. To make sure they have the HEALTHCARE they need.

In my family, that took a TWO career household. And I’m damned proud I was able to hold the family together fiscally when DH couldn’t.

My now 27-year old daughter is in a PhD program because she learned this lesson as well. God bless the child (and mom!) that has her own.

@katliamom You found the right choice for you. As you state, it was your choice to choose to work full-time.

I can equally affirm that there is value in deliberately making the choice not to work outside the home and being your children’s primary caregiver. I can also hold my opinion without denigrating working women or making the assumption that it is a viable option for all women–positions I have never stated nor believe.

ETA to address your edited additional comment: I am equally proud of the mother and teacher I have been for my children and the example I have given them for strongly working to hold on to the values they have and pursuing their dreams.

I’m fond of the expression, “Family Is,” meaning it is whatever it is and the bonds can be strong in whatever way you build them. Lots of kids or few, born, adopted or step, working parents or sahp, as long as you care about their welfare and growth. Nothing says one path is righter than another and it is possible to influence them by either staying home or working, if you parent well. None of us need to be defensive.

It’s true that one result of the superwoman thing is we came to understand choice can go any way. I just get a little uncomfortable when we pressure others, when we say it needs to be one way or the other, binary. Or that a woman who works can only pick certain types of fields.

If we think about it, we can each name scores of families that either turned out well or not, with various structures.

@warriordaughter
Have you considered a chemical engineering degree? It is easier to find a job and the pay is better than chemistry.

katliamom, there is financial aid and state health insurance for those whose families run into unexpected misfortune.

I find this whole thread interesting partly because I assume there are many different ages and generations represented. When my oldest was very young, the Wall Street Journal could still publish an editorial with the author describing his gratitude for a wife/mother staying at home, and detailing the benefits. Just five years later, when my youngest was the same age, this was unthinkable.

The change in culture, partly driven by the economy and partly by gender politics, made this kind of editorial unthinkable in just a short span. Welfare reform further normalized working and stigmatized staying home. Kindergartens went to full-time everywhere, and the benefits of kids experiencing care from others were extolled.

Of course, working mothers are not a new phenomenon. What was new was that the well-educated, relatively well-off women, stayed working when they had kids. This was not always for financial reasons, especially since having a few kids meant high day care costs for working parents. Fulfillment and continuation of career options was now a big factor, as many have stated here.

I am most likely one of the older posters here, though I have kids in their early, mid and late 20’s still. My ingrained role models were most likely my incredibly literate aunties, who wrote letters that could be published but never thought of being a :“writer”, who raised kids and dogs , took care of elderly neighbors, and maybe volunteered at the hospital . Their husbands were variously in business, or academia, or law, and came home on the train at 5:30, the kids jumped up to hug them and the mother got a break for an hour and cooked two dinners. Cheever territory with a cultured twist.

I graduated from high school in the late 60’s at the cusp of some major social changes, at least for those who could contemplate the lifestyle I just described, financially. (A large percentage of women have, of course, always had to work, hence the term “working class.”) I felt a lot of pressure to be successful for the sake of my gender (and the reputation of my new school) and in the chaos of the 60’s, turned my back on it for awhile.

I have read that now many well-educated, or Ivy-educated women are now opting to stay home, and use their skills in the community or schools (where their hard driving intelligence is not always appreciated !). However, one of my daughters did go to an Ivy and none of her friends want kids, they are all career-focused, and if they do want kids it is assumed they will have nannies (Upper East side crowd, not us, not us at all).

In my working class town, many many women are home. The ones who are not home have high powered professional jobs. Some of the women “at home” picking up kids work nights so that one parent is home all the time. There are so many models. Welfare isn’t available anymore so some people work low paying jobs and have relatives take care of the kids, even new babies. (I hate to see women be forced to go back because they have no maternity leave.)

For warrior daughter, the issue you raise is very complex. My own daughters are struggling with this as well. In fact, for one in the arts, none of the residencies that help advance career mention kids being welcome, though significant others sometimes are. All of my kids want kids, and in that, as I said, they are outliers in their group.

I have no idea how they are going to make this work but sons and daughters both have been advised to find a spouse who will take on what needs to be taken on, or hang around the Ritz bar and meet someone rich (joke, um, sort of- they are in the arts so let’s just say that would be alternate funding).

I find that feminine roles in general have lost respect in our culture, which is too bad. Much of what women used to do, even into my 20’s, has been professionalized, hence the rise of day care, pre-k, assisted living for the elderly, and so on.

My sincere wish would be that EVERY woman, regardless of income, could experience the kind of flexibility some on this thread of described as their good fortune. As it is, women generally end up doing most of the work at home AND working outside the home. Some see work outside the home as a plus, but for many with less interesting jobs, our societal expectation that women work means two “shifts” (as in the book “Second Shift”).

If there is enough money, staying at home with kids can be wonderful, but it does mean giving up certain kinds of personal fulfillment for a time. Though there are creative ways around that over the course of the children’s growing up. Some of the posters have given ideas on that.

Good luck with your decisions. You can make it work. I think it’s great that you are thinking ahead and my own daughter might wish you were in her women’s group!! Right now, her maternal drive is going into teaching undergrads.

I have found this thread fascinating too! Thank you OP!

As an aside, we recently moved from a wealthy area of south Florida (where we were often the po’ folk LOL) where it was a little less common for moms to work. This seemed like a class issue to a certain extent. That surprised me a little when we first moved there and I was working.

Now we live in north central FL and every morning when I’m out with my dog, I see moms from my little street and area buzzing to work. It’s kind of cool! I had forgotten what that looked like.

I still believe that a stay-at-home parent often brings big value to a family. But I certainly respect that other families do it differently, and one of my own sisters has done it quite differently and she has wonderful kids. She does have a very supportive and available husband. My H is supportive and available when he’s here, but he has also had to travel frequently for his career. He can do it without significant worry because I’m here holding down the fort, something I am grateful to be able to do.

@californiaaa hard to explain a gap in employment for motherhood in your 30s?? BS – I have kids in college and had my first at 31 – nobody thought that was odd AT ALL

@compmom I thoroughly enjoyed your post.

I hope both your daughter and the OP are able to find someone with whom they can forge the lives they both desire, even if it defies conventional wisdom.

Yep, add me to the people who have enjoyed reading the variety of responses on this thread.

I find it nearly impossible to untangle the disappointments, regrets, and unanticipated surprises that life inevitably dishes out. Not only for myself, but for those around me. It’s hard for me to then give any advice.

I guess I do tell my kids that it’s difficult to predict what your future self will want. This is not an original idea on my part. I got it from Dan Gilbert’s book “Stumbling on Happiness”. I mean, there will be things you feel so certain about as a young person that when you’re older, it’s normal to think “WHAT was I thinking?” So, I tell them, take a minute and try as you might, imagine what an older version of you might have to say. It might surprise you.

I suppose if my husband hadn’t had the financial setbacks he had, I’d be saying how happy I was that I didn’t put career first, that it was fine that I just had a “job” and not a “career”, that being focused on the kids was the right choice for me. But it didn’t work out how I had pictured it. We struggled. We were very stressed and unhappy at times. Some of the best summers and vacations we took when the kids were wee? They barely remember. What will they remember about us?

Anyways, I’m rambling! The short version = how it all “turns out” will almost certainly influence your opinion, right?

“But it didn’t work out how I had pictured it. We struggled. We were very stressed and unhappy at times… What will the[kids} remember about us?”

@Midwest67 You might be surprised - in a good way! Your children may have been unaware of your stresses. I certainly met people who told me “we were poor – but we didn’t know it!” And if they did pick up on your troubles, today they may respect you all the more for making it work anyway. That’s how it was for me.

My father could not be relied upon financially and my mother was forced to assume all the fiscal responsibilities. (They eventually divorced for that reason.) I remember her stressed and unhappy at times, but as an adult I came to deeply respect her toughness, her ability to support us, and her resolve to shield me as much as possible from her anxiety. Her strength and independence made me strong and independent too. My daughter’s that way as well. We all learned from each other.

Your children may have learned from you in how to deal gracefully with setbacks. These are profound and hugely important lessons.

““One can’t be forever “financially independent”. Sooner or later you have to depend on your family. And if you don’t have it?””

Of course you can be financially independent forever if you save enough money. If you become unable to care for yourself, you pay caregivers. Even if I had kids, I wouldn’t want them to have to be my daily caregivers. My parents have long-term care insurance; they certainly don’t plan to be dependent on their kids.

Speaking as a lawyer and someone who’s seen a lot of close friends go through divorce:
Anyone who chooses to earn less than they might have earned in order to care for children and/or spouse needs legal help to create an airtight financial agreement. Do not assume that the laws of any state will make you whole in case of divorce.