<p>I'm helping a HS junior. His HS only has math through Calc, which he has this year. School cut AP calc. He will take a math his senior year, but as of right now Statistics (w/ Honors) will be his only option.</p>
<p>Question is -- Will this hurt chances of applying to engineering schools (Drexel and Pitt are his top picks right now)?</p>
<p>The more important question:
Will it hurt him when he begins an engineering program?</p>
<p>It would be financially difficult for him to do on-line AP Calc or a community college class, but not impossible. He needs to appeal to HS for outside class (on-line or CC) by January. </p>
<p>He doesn't have the confidence to self study AP Calc. I also think his ECs & school schedule does not leave much time to dedicate to self study.</p>
<p>I think that all depends on the rest of his resume, so to speak, like Math SAT score, etc. I really don’t think he would be penalized because he didn’t take AP Calc when he had regular calc, especially if his hs didn’t offer it. I’m also sure he could catch up easily.</p>
<p>If I were him, I’d lean toward Pitt. Both are about the same in the engineering rankings, both are urban, but Pitt just dropped [$100</a> million into new/upgraded engineering facilities](<a href=“http://www.engr.pitt.edu/transformation/index.html]$100”>http://www.engr.pitt.edu/transformation/index.html) and has much more of a campus and traditional college experience (considering that it is urban). Pitt, as an all around school, is better known, and is probably also cheaper. However, that may all still depend on his preference for a possible engineering specialty and location on the east vs west side of the state.</p>
<p>If his SAT/ACT score is good, particular in math, then he should have a good chance of landing admission to an engineering school. Lots of high schools do not offer AP calculus or stat – particularly if it’s a small school. But I would suggest this, contact [Welcome</a> to Virtual Virginia!](<a href=“http://www.virtualvirginia.org%5DWelcome”>http://www.virtualvirginia.org). It is the state online program for Virginia. My son took seven classes through it (we live in Virginia) and just loved it. The teachers are all certified. I have several current students taking classes with VVA. Sometimes, there is space for an out of state student. You would need to find out what the cost will be, but it is an option.</p>
<p>I think most good engineering schools only expect the students to be “Cal I ready” when they come to college. I don’t think many/any require that Cal I already be taken via AP exam. </p>
<p>If you want, you could have your child take Cal I at a CC over the summer and/or you could have your school just give him the AP Cal AB test. You don’t have to take the class for the school to order the exam. My son never took AP English Comp, but the school ordered the exam for him after we sent in the request and the check.</p>
<p>Engineering schools typically start programs at Calc I but having had Calc in high-school provides a leg up, even if the student retakes Calc in college as they’ve had the exposure to it and it won’t feel like a huge amount of new material. Of course it is very important to have solid backgrounds in Algebra and Trig. My son, the tutor, says that he sees a lot of engineering students with weak algebra skills and some with almost non-existent trig skills.</p>
<p>Calculus is usually a co-requisite for physics so students learn them at the same time. It is far easier to do the physics piece, though, if you’ve already seen the calculus piece. It’s even easier if you’ve had differential equations and linear algebra too as some professors like to describe things that require more math even though the students don’t have the additional courses under their belts at the time.</p>
<p>I don’t think any of this would be a problem in admissions. I would just be worried that he would lose his chops in Algebra. Sometimes non-Calc based statistics is taught as little more than a glorified arithmetic class, combined with memorization of some methodologies.</p>
<p>He doesn’t need to be a Calculus expert before starting eng. school. I think it’s wise for everyone except real math experts to repeat at least a portion of the Calc I curriculum. But he does need to be comfortable in Algebra and trig, so if he could review somehow aloing the way that would be good.</p>
<p>If his school doesn’t offer Calc, he won’t be unduly penalized at admissions, but I think it would make his first year in Engineering school difficult as the majority of his fellow students will have had it, even in the intro Calc for Engineers class. In your shoes I’d be looking to see if he could take Calc on line or at a local college. I’d lobby to get the school system to help fund the cost as well.</p>
<p>^ Completely disagree about statistics (said as someone with about 6 PhD level stats courses under my belt and a spouse who teaches graduate level stats).</p>
<p>About doing well in math in college (not APs in HS, but at college):</p>
<p>Kids who score well in math SATs (i.e.750-800) and even in their APs (5) and therefore get placed in Calc II, still struggle. My son who got 800s and 5s feels unprepared. My other kids who also were good in HS math struggled in college, (a bit less but even in Calc I). And my kids are not alone. I know a very high achiever in Math (science major) had a near collapse with this when she got to Brown.</p>
If you are responding to my post I question whether you have looked at the AP Stats test. Please show me the actual Algebra and Trigonometry used for that test. I have no idea what difference it makes how many PhD level clases you have taken, whatever that means. AP stats does not require or use Calculus, nor even much Algebra. And certainly extremely little trigonomtery, which is very important in Engineering. Yes, there are some series used, but generally not infinite series like in Algebra. They are basically arithmetic summations. And I say all this as someone with degrees in Physics and Engineering, whatever value there is in that.</p>
<p>In non-calc based statistics, the way it is frequently taught, you are mainly plugging things into formulas and looking things up in tables. It requires some logic, but little actual Algebraic manipulation. I know, because I took stats for Engineers (calc based), and for my MS in IS (minimal calc). Night and day. Maybe you do a tiny bit of manipulation of variables or interpolations.</p>
<p>By the way, this is not to imply that AP Stats is trivial. It is just a unique class.</p>
<p>In the engineering forum, the recommendation to retake calculus in college is fairly common as the calc in college is often different than AP Calc and taking it over can provide a nice GPA boost.</p>
<p>bovertine, we may not disagree at all. I’ve not looked at AP Stat and I wouldn’t be surprised if it is plug and chug, and anything called “stat for…” is usually some kind of dumbed down plug and chug. Formulas and look stuff up. </p>
<p>What I don’t know is the extent to which one needs real statistics courses (unlike both of the above) for engineering. If none, then a moot point. I was operating with the assumption- and a dumb one, now that I think about it- that much more was required in eng. Real statistics courses that is. And ones that are taught well, need not calculus (it’s just easier that way, though some bad profs fall back on the math as a substitute for the conceptual).</p>
<p>This is a silly digression I started. Sorry!</p>
<p>MY D took through MV Calc in HS but is retaking Calc 2 her 2st semester, 1st year in college and has no regrets - she is familar with the material but already has found sections not taught when she took BC Calc and she is happy to know she’ll now have the foundation expected by her school by taking their sequence. Even though the E-School she’s at sets most schedules with Calc II being the 1st semester class - they also have a fair number who start with Calc I and are not behind (I think they just double up a semester or take it on a semester where they otherwise wouldn’t have math). She considered jumping past MV Calc but is now happy she didn’t simply because she has a cushion (but not a very soft one, still challenging in ways) and she has an excellent professor that she thinks will be a great resource later.</p>
<p>I think most colleges know there is a lot of variance in the math taught at the HS level so they account for it, he should be fine!</p>
<p>Also, FYI, Drexel gave my D a terrific merit award but then a huge gap for FA - don’t know if that is typical or not or something relevant to the student you are helping!</p>
<p>Put that way, we don’t disagree. In addition, I don’t think AP Stats is merely plug and chug - it requires a significant level of logic. And yes, statistics is important for engineering. I found statistics to be difficult. But if you were to ask me if I needed anything I learned in stats to get through my first couple years in Physics or Engineering I would be hard pressed to name something. I would not say they same about polar coordinates.</p>
<p>My main point is about high school statistics, including AP Statistics. I think a lot of the really mathy kids just skip this, or self study it as an afterthought. They seem much more likely to move on to MVC, ODE, PDE, or linear Algebra rather than a stats class. Im sure later on they may study statistics at a more advanced level.</p>
<p>My main concern vis-à-vis the OP is that taking Calculus in Junior years, then Stats, the student may get a little rusty on their basic Algebraic and trigonometric operations.</p>
<p>Son had to take mathematical statistics for his CS program. It had a prereq of Calc II and he had to do a lot of proofs in the course. I believe that the engineering programs require an engineering version of the statistics course and that it has calc 2 as a prereq.</p>
<p>Son took Calc 1-3, Discrete Math I and Linear Algebra dual-enrollment so he didn’t have any transition issues when he matriculated.</p>
<p>My son has taken two courses that required stats: Algorithms and Artificial Intelligence. The only other course that I see requiring stats at the undergrad level is Computer Performance Evaluation.</p>
<p>"a little rusty on their basic Algebraic and trigonometric operations. "</p>
<p>-These are so easy to go over and refresh in few hours, it is not worth any mentionning at all. These are not calc, they are basically middle school algebra. Calc at college will cover much more advanced material and one absolutely cannot be successful without solid math in any college engineering program. But, there is no reason to give up dream under any circumstances. Help is available, there are Supplemental Instructors, prof’s office hours, paid tutors at college. Do not panic before time, stay cool, follow your dreams and be prepared to seek help if needed.</p>
Yes, I’m sure you are such a genius everything is easy for you. I’m sure you never get rusty at anything. This is your common post, I think you’ve posted a similar thing 100 times on here, and it’s nonsense.</p>
<p>Every kid is different.</p>
<p>By the way, I never said to “give up dream.” I merely said this </p>
<p>“Yes, I’m sure you are such a genius everything is easy for you.” - there is no reason to get nesty. They are easy. I did not say that college calc is easy, I said, seek help if needed, there is no reason to worry about it in HS. Help is available in college, some kids for some strange reason hesitate seeking it though. But those who do, are successful at pusuing their goals.</p>