I don't understand some people here

Applying to College
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<p>It’s not always that easy. We’re talking about kids, older yes, but still kids. There is pressure coming from all directions, including parents.</p>

<p>My sister is 2.5 years younger than me, but she was the first in our family to actually apply to competitive universities as I took a gap year, then went to a community college. My mother did not attend university. She was of a generation where that wasn’t necessary for career success. She spent her career in the Federal government, did well there, but her education spanned only career specific training and certs; my father had a similar career path. So my sister’s college pursuit was my mother’s first foray into the intimidating world of university admissions.</p>

<p>My sister, a good student, had a handful of schools she would love to have attended. She applied to all the schools she wanted, and a few safeties that she was not enthusiastic about. Why? Because my mother was a realist. She was looking at not only my sister’s wants, but also had to deal with the realities of financing her education. She pressed my sister into applying to a couple of good state schools, just in case.</p>

<p>Well my sister ended up getting into all of her schools save NYU (which is ironically the only university I ever applied to, and is my alma mater). Her top choice was American University, and not only did she gain entrance, she also got a generous financial aid offering.</p>

<p>But one of the state schools, UMBC, offered her a much better FA package and so that is where my mother implored her attend. My sister did, and she matriculated from that university. But her college experience was mediocre. It was a good school, the level of education wasn’t her issue, but those are 4 years that she does not look back on with any particular joy, or excitement. She had been looking at college as the chance to make herself over, to really step into a more urban environment, and to have great time along with a great education. But the reality of middle class parents, especially parents who themselves never attended school, trumped all. It was an overwhelming process for my mother, and my sister. The results weren’t the best, and that’s the reality of life. Not everyone gets to attend their dream school. Not everyone has this incredible college experience. </p>

<p>Sometimes your “safety” schools aren’t all up to the student. They are likewise up to the parents who are responsible for paying for their education. What do you do with a kid who, when the list is made, only really wants schools that are reaches? Or when the safety schools have to be dictated partially by the financial realities of paying for expensive higher education?</p>

<p>It’s not always as simple as applying to only schools you really, really want to attend.</p>

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<p>I see all these statements here all over this site about “state schools” and “safety” schools in the same breath. Ditto all the suggestions of community college.</p>

<p>In California, things are a bit different. Yes, the University of California is world-renowned. But it costs $33K/year, give or take, to attend (that’s just for this next year, no telling what tuition increases are in the offing). And for freshman and sophomores, most of your classes will be at least 300 students with small “sections” led by grad students. </p>

<p>And community college, or Cal State universities? Not the best option either. Most CCs are so overcrowded and under-funded that your odds of getting the classes that you need…at the time that you need them…can be astronomical. It can take 3-4 years to build up the credits needed to transfer at junior level. And the CSUs are similar. We’re hearing that the average bachelor’s degree at CSUs, especially the more popular campuses, are a six-year proposition.</p>

<p>My daughter had an interesting mix of schools, and was invited to apply by three other schools, only one of which accepted her (with merit aid) in the end. The other wait-listed her, even though it was well within or even under her stats, and the third one deferred her, suggesting re-application sophomore year (we took that as a rejection). Her acceptances ranged from a school with a 20% acceptance rate to a school with a 70% acceptance rate. They are all good schools. Now we are in the financial mode of discussion, and sadly, the University of California is actually coming out the most expensive, with its huge class size and lack of individual attention.</p>

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<p>oldfort - the internet is not just “broadband” - if you have a phone you have access to the internet - in fact, if you have a Starbucks near you (and who doesn’t) you have access to the internet - tell me that 20% of the population doesn’t have a phone or a Starbucks nearby?</p>

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<p>I think Sue22 has a good point here–the whole term “safety” seems to imply “loser” in the current usage. </p>

<p>As for the overall theme of this thread, my sons list of 11 schools applied to was shaped by the experiences of the 3 children of my lifelong best friends whose kids had the same sort of stats and aspirations as my son and applied the 2 previous years. At our excellent suburban public HS, there are 2 counselors for a class of almost 700 students. They don’t have the time for intense advising. Yes, the application process is worlds different since my husband and I attended college over 30 yrs ago. Without my friends advice, I wouldn’t have known where to even start.</p>

<p>S applied to 11 schools with a mix of super reach (PENN, Brown, Cornell), reach (Northwestern, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Carnegie Mellon, WashU, Lehigh), liklies (Penn State Main, U Delaware). He superscored 2390 SATs (yeah for the self-study books he raised his scores up 70-90 points on each area on the retake), 4.4 WGPA, 11 APs, decent ECs. </p>

<p>When you visit any of the competive schools, they make it clear that they can fill each and every seat in the freshman class 6-10x over with equally qualified kids. They are very, very clear about this. Maybe it is that teenage brains “it won’t happen to me” function that makes you think YOU will be accepted. It is a roll of the dice. Looking at Naviance data he was in the same range or above for every school he applied to. Given the Naviance data and that Penn and Cornell take a few kids each year from his HS, my S had a lot of hope getting into Penn and Cornell…waitlisted at both. He was totally depressed, until he returned to school and found out that all the top kids (except #1, ED MIT and USNA) hadn’t gotten into Ivies either. He has now narrowed it down to Notre Dame and Vandy among his acceptances. Because soooo many kids from his HS go to PENN State (a fine public university) he never was satisfied to go there, because he wants to make a break and a change. He isn’t rejecting it because it was a safety–but because it is what ‘everyone else is doing.’ However, if he had only gotten into there I think he would have done fine. He got into the Honors College both there and U Delaware and we have heard of plenty of kids from his HS that attend those and love them.</p>

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<p>cececole…So our school classifies schools as Far Reach= Ivies for unqualified kids, Reach = Ivies, Standford, MIT for qualified kids from our school, Possible = Your stats are equal to to kids that have been accepted from our school, and Likely = Your stats are better that kids that have been accepted from our school. ( We have a good college advising office that sets these categories for our kids. A team of people looks at the kids stats, and groups all the college into these category for each kid.) A good lesson for my kids has been seeing top-notch, high achieving kids from their school enrolling in their possible schools. When my daughter was in 10th grade, she was SHOCKED that our #1 girl did not get into her first choice school (reach school). The #1 boy did not get into his first choice school (reach school). As she goes through this process of learning the acceptances and denies, she is realizing that it does not change her opinion of anybody. The smart kids are still smart, the go getters are still go getters, the kids that have the total package still have the total package. By watching all her upperclass friends acceptance and denies, has solidified that fact that she must apply at likely schools, if she gets into a possible GREAT, a reach thats great too! (she feels fortunate that she doesn’t have any far reaches, so she is an inch closer to the mile away from an Ivy.</p>

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<p>My daughter’s HS guidance counselor told her that she had no chance in getting into any really good school. She is now ready getting to graduate from Williams College and thinking of medical school with a gap year. So much for guidance counselors.</p>

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<p>Wow…Great Topic!!</p>

<p>And one that I’m all too familiar with as we went through this process in my D’s junior year. Shes now finishing her Freshman year at W&M. In reading some of the comments I’m definatley on the side of guiding our students in the right direction when it comes to making for some their first official adult decision. Its not easy trying to figure where you want to live for the next 4 years or longer for some. I think classifying schools as “reach” all depends on their admission requirements and the student’s resume (GPA,SAT,EC’s…etc). Lets all be real here, applying to an Ivy or rigorus private (Duke,G’town…etc) with mid GPA and SAT scores probably won’t get you in. Some State Schools are no cake walk either (UVA,Stanford,W&M,UCLA…etc) all have very high standards and having mid scores applying there also probably wont get someone in either. I’m sure students do get in to these schools having less than what they thought was required of them, but those are the exceptions.</p>

<p>We parents all want our kids to go to “good” schools, its an ego booster for some of us when discussing our students and some kids are pressured to apply to certain schools knowing their chances are weak. Although “safe” schools are many student’s second option, they are also the first and only option for many and they still do quite well and go on to be successful in their future endeavors. </p>

<p>I will admit that I pushed my D harder in her selection than what she initially wanted. Ill just say her initial choices were schools that pretty much required that you have a pulse to attend. But after making her realize that her 4 years of hard work shouldnt be given to just any school just because. Shes happy in her decision although I remind her of the time she sat in the passenger seat, arms folded, unimpressed look on her face while on a road trip to her current school (which by the way she immediatley fell in love with).</p>

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<p>Way back when, parents did not help at all. Certainly first- and second-generation Americans have less chance to get help from parents even now.</p>

<p>My son will apply to at least two “safety schools” - one a local state school and the other a few states away. His guidance counselor has not helped unless we specifically ask and ask and ask.</p>

<p>But realize also, there are kids like my brother who NEVER applied to college and in the summer realized he should go to college, and my uncle got him a spot at a local tech school. It’s not all doom and gloom. And there are even cases like a friend of mine from HS - she went to the local county college, transferred to a four-year college, then went on to law school. </p>

<p>Also, my guidance counselor said DON’T APPLY TO AN IVY, LET ALONE TWO - you’re wasting your money. I got into both. Lucky for him, I was too happy to bring up his bad advice.</p>

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<p>I’m one of those misguided internationals. I went to a college counsellor, he knew all my stats; SATs, co curriculars, leadership positions, everything. I got a 1900 and have a 3.9 GPA and he advised to to apply to 4 Ivies, Stanford, 4 TOP LACs including Grinnell, Wesleyan and UChicago. Turns out I only got into Grinnell (I’m so grateful) with pretty good aid. Personally, I don’t even think my stats qualify for the school but I was EXTREMELY close to getting in nowhere.</p>

<p>I know people who have college counsellors and have done the same thing; some haven’t even got into any schools. It’s easy to be misguided. He made me feel like I definitely had a shot at all those schools and I only found out after heavy research that those schools had pretty low acceptances with barely any deviation from their midrange scores. I pretty much wasted my time with these essays when I never even had the chance.</p>

<p>Moral of the story, it’s not so far fetched to apply to reach schools when you have someone who is seemingly professional tell you that it’s possible. I have a TOTALLY different outlook on college admissions now and I’m soo happy that I got in somewhere by the skin of my teeth.</p>

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<p>Our daughter’s original list contained Ivies, top LACs, Duke etc. We told her that at least 5 schools needed to have admit rates of approximately 40 % or more. We were worried she wouldn’t get in anywhere. Stats: 33 ACT, 4.6 (W)…tons of ECs and leadership positions. Here is how it turned out:</p>

<p>Accepted:</p>

<p>Willamette
U of Puget Sound
Colby
Bucknell
Occidental
Whitman
U of CO
Lake Forest</p>

<p>Rejected:
Carleton
Dartmouth</p>

<p>WL:
Vanderbilt
Davidson</p>

<p>Out of the ones she was admitted to, only Bucknell and Colby were under the 40% admit rate (25%) She was lucky enough to get great aid at most of the acceptances. Her top four are: Lake Forest, Bucknell, Colby, Occidental. The college group we worked with suggested we appeal FA at three of them. We have heard from one already…with significantly more aid…We are grateful we didn’t fall into the Ivy trap.</p>

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<p>My son had no interest in applying to the Ivy League. He was looking for small schools where the focus would be on undergraduate teaching. Given these criteria he gravitated toward small liberal arts colleges, and he will be attending one in the Fall.</p>

<p>My experience in the Ivy League was uneven. I encountered some amazing professors along the way and was fortunate enough to take The History of Architecture with Vincent Scully and U.S. History with John Blum (I am dating myself here, this was Yale circa 1986). The problem with these courses were their sheer size, 200-300 students. We broke up into “TA sections” led by graduate students. There was essentially zero face time with these superstar professors. Coming from a high school where small discussions using the Harkness method (Phillips Exeter) were the norm, I was disappointed in my Yale experience.</p>

<p>So, as parents are wont to do, I try in some small way to live vicariously through my son, and hope that his small liberal arts college experience meets his needs in a way that my Ivy League education did not.</p>

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<p>What about the kids who don’t get into their “safety” schools even though they are more than qualified on paper? How come kids with lower test scores and lower GPA and less AP courses from the same HS got in?</p>

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<p>Because schools pay attention to things beyond gpa and test scores? There are essays, extracurriculars, and level of interest involved in a holistic admissions process and far fewer “safety” schools than people think.</p>