Harvest- I get what you are describing. But what about the flip side- a kid gets into HYP who has been flying under everyone’s radar- because he’s NOT playing ice hockey or being a big deal at HS. Or a kid heading off to Cal Tech who everyone assumed was an average Joe because he’s not in your kid’s social circle and wasn’t on the school’s robotics team (because he was cooking up something independently in his backyard- no teacher, no team, no car-pooling- just a smart, focused, driven kid working by himself).
There was a kid in one of my kid’s HS classes who had the enviable choice of Julliard or an Ivy college. Some people were surprised (not by the Ivy- he had all the “traditional” trappings of that type of kid). But by Julliard- he wasn’t in the school orchestra; he wasn’t in AP Music Theory; he wasn’t “A MUSIC KID”.
But guess what- Julliard doesn’t give a #$%$^ about what a bunch of parents think about a kid’s talent, or experience, or application strategy. You apply, if you are lucky enough to get an audition you get up and play, and a bunch of people who actually get paid to recognize talent decide if they want to invest their time and resources in your training.
So to me, what you guys are describing is akin to the kid who just “waltzed into Julliard” (said by a parent who couldn’t believe that a kid who “Wasn’t even a music kid” could get an audition.) So you can have two theories here- one- that the faculty at Julliard don’t know what they are doing and that a nosy parent knows better. I don’t buy that theory. The second theory is that you can’t possibly know what other kids are doing in their spare time. Even when you think you do. You may think that playing in the school orchestra is a “marker” of musical talent- but the faculty at Julliard might not agree. You may think that playing ice hockey with your kid is the best way to know who is talented and who is not and who has an A average and who is a slacker but my bet is that you’d be wrong.
So that’s the theory I ascribe to. Nobody “waltzes” into Julliard. Which means that a perfectly nice and smart and accomplished kid ALSO was practicing his instrument for what- 20 hours a week? Taking private classes and playing with a Baroque quartet that nobody at HS knew about? Since he was 6 years old?
Parents are under no obligation to tell every other parent in town how their kid spends their free time.
The other piece of this all which doesn’t ring true to me is – I get that you might know some of these details about your friends’ kids and/or your kid’s friends. I know that among my group of friends, N’s son is into the clarinet and Eagle Scouting and D’s daughter is into ice skating and blah blah blah. I don’t really know the particulars (does “into ice skating” mean she won regionals? state? nationals? beats me because I don’t sit and track the particulars of ice skating competition) but I get understanding the general gist of their activities.
But this isn’t what’s being talked about here. This is the supposed “I know about ALL the kids in the school, such that I know who is on track for elite schools, and if someone slips into an elite school and I wasn’t aware of their activities, something funky was going on here.” And that’s where I completely call b-s on the whole matter. It’s just achingly clear to me it’s the extroverts chit-chatting with the other extroverts who are all into this kind of thing, and they’ve decreed that they and their kids are “everybody.” While the rest of us introverts would rather just go read a book than fake-pretend to care that Susie has a 3.98, or was it a 3.97, and Bobby isn’t in AP Physics this year which is really surprising because he’s always been so good at science, and Billy who plays a sport you’d have to be paid money to watch won 2nd, or was it 3rd, place in the state, or was it the midwest region. These aren’t your friends’ kids or kid’s friends where it might make sense for you to care. These are just people who have zero, zip, zilch in common with you and your family other than you live within the same few square miles.
Perhaps different communities work in different ways. But the school my children attended had an unbelievable music program and all the students were showcased at holiday assemblies and any other gathering where music was appropriate. At that particular school if a child had musical talent s/he would definitely have been involved at some point in the school’s program. I think many supplemented with lessons outside school and we did have one or two that were involved in the Carnegie Hall program. But it was the school that made a huge deal out of that - they announced those accolades in the school newspaper and the local paper. My children were not involved in the music programs but I knew the talents of those who were.
My point is that you don’t have to be in the category of a “nosey” or over reaching parent to have some knowledge of the talents of other students that attend your child’s school. It just comes with being integrated into the community.
My son does high level music here in NYC, including some big name programs. He did the orchestra and such in middle school, but parents of his classmates never knew the outside stuff he did because I didn’t tell them. The school couldn’t publicize his events because I saw and see no reason for the school to know these things, either since they weren’t school related. The information can only be made public if someone in the family chooses to make it so.
I don’t think most role at least (maybe the OP but not most people I know ) think that when there’s a kid who is “unknown” and gets into a great school that there’s something “funky” going on. I certainly don’t think the kids have to be extroverts to be well known. In the top track classes these kids have known each other often since preschool. They’ve often been tracked together since middle school. For example one kid who was not well known to the world at large but most kids in those classes many of them told their parents that this was the smartest kid they ever knew and they all knew a lot of smart kids. None of the kids or there parents were surprised when she got into a top 5 university.
This fall, it will be ten years since my daughter went off to college. It’s been fascinating to watch how the lives of her friends and my friends’ children have unfolded – especially the kids who went to elite schools. The results have been quite mixed and, lo and behold, getting into these top schools didn’t automatically propel these kids into stellar careers or extraordinary lives.
Along with real success stories - Stanford followed by a prestigious job; Northwestern followed by a top-10 med school; Brown followed by law school and a lucrative job at a prospering law firm - there have been some notable stalls. A HYPS-level school (and prep school alum) floundered for a long time and is now in rehab. Another moved home after her $50K/year private “to save money for vet school.” Six years later she’s still there, working at a doggy daycare for $12 per hour. And of course, there are the kids of whom little was expected but who rose rather extraordinarily – one who went to a culinary school and took a few community college classes – is now running a state-of-the-art PR and marketing company representing the city’s highest-end restaurants. We see her name on TV frequently. And she drives a car worth more than all the vehicles I’ve ever purchased, combined
There are no guarantees in life. I wish parents would keep that in mind as they agonize at the unfairness of it all because their child didn’t get into HYPS. Little do they realize that the parent with an Ivy League-educated druggie struggling in rehab would trade places with them in a heartbeat.
Zooser has hit the nail on the head. The Julliard kid I referenced earlier had never performed in the schools Arts Night (or whatever they called it back then). He had (apparently) been a musical prodigy but hadn’t appeared on Ellen or some other talk show where the host pretends to have a grown up conversation with an 8 year old. He had never run a recital to raise money for his great-aunt’s chemo. Lots of kids do these things- and that’s great.
But the ABSENCE of this public “look my kid is a musical prodigy” doesn’t mean there isn’t a kid- who you don’t know- who has zero footprint in your HS or town- who at this very moment is practicing his or her art/craft with full on success and intensity. Sometimes parents end up with a teacher who believes in lots of early exposure. Sometimes a kid wants and needs the experiences of playing with the HS orchestra or being part of a community ensemble. And sometimes not.
You surely can’t believe that every talented scientist in America was on a robotics team back when? Or that every lawyer arguing before the supreme court was captain of their HS debate team?
You can’t possibly know what every kid in your town is doing. Even if you’ve got 80 kids in your HS’s graduating class. I’m plenty integrated into my community (and PizzaGirl- I’m an extreme E as we’ve discussed before) but I fully recognize that people have a right to privacy and if they choose not to disclose that their kid MIGHT be homeschooled next year if she wins a spot at ABT or that their kid’s concerto is having its first public performance in London next week they are under no obligation to share.
you really think that every musical talent in America has played at their HS’s holiday concert???
Maybe not. I don’t think that is what I am arguing here. Some parents are very happy to have their children’s talents displayed and recognized. Sure there are some who prefer not to do so. But it seems to me that if your child has musical talent and is in the same school community for 5 to 10 years, at some point it is more likely than not that the talent is going to become apparent.
What I am arguing is that you do not have to be a “nosy” parent or one that is meddling into other people’s business to have knowledge of the successes of other students at your child’s school.
And yet a kid from my child’s HS got into Julliard- so likely he had musical talent- and did not walk the same path that the other “music kids” did. His talent became apparent when he decided not to get a BA from whichever single digit admissions college had accepted him and opted for Conservatory.
You certainly are not nosy or meddlesome to know what other kids are doing and are good at. That’s never been my point. But you are- I don’t know the word- melodramatic? to assume that no kid could possibly be as good as they turn out to be if YOU or your cohort or your HS or your principal didn’t know about it. And it’s weird to assume that the crucible of HS is what turns out and recognizes world class talent. And that the converse- that if a kid from your child’s school turns OUT to be more talented than you thought then clearly someone cheated? Or in the case of the OP- betrayed?
You’ve never learned about something a kid from your town did after the fact and think, “wow that’s cool- such a (fill in the blank) nebbish or average or quiet or under the radar kid doing something so outstanding?”
To add to HarvestMoon1: I don’t know how old the children of any of the posters here are, well, Katliamom gave a clue, but otherwise…Have you gotten a look at what the kids share with each other these days? Honestly, kids on the whole have NO appreciation for privacy, modesty, humility, or that which is confidential.
Parents who love to put it all out there, all the time, down to the reason you should infer that their kid is simply always going to outshine your kid unless you can catch up are out there as well.
You would probably have a sense, but not have enough information about the total picture to be able to assess the validity of college admissions decisions, and there could always be surprises.
So here is my own hypocrisy. My son is a music kid and has a friend who is also a music kid, and whom I have known for years and believe to be a better musician than my son. His music is a gift to listen to and I consider myself a fan girl for this young man. I saw his mom recently and we were exchanging dying parents stories, and she told me that he has chosen a wonderful college with no music and plans to maybe casually play in an ensemble, but maybe not. I almost fell on the floor. Never would have expected that in a million years. Not that it’s any of my business, but it’s still possible to be surprised even when you have known someone for a long time.
Going to a foreign country teases you’re wealthy (won’t need much, if any, financial aid) AND it shows the applicant is outgoing and not scared of new environments.
I think the volunteering when you’re in a foreign country is largely seen as a phony cliche in 2016. But if the student fabricated a bunch of things, that’s grounds for reporting them to the college. They certainly won’t want a future cheater on their campus. And that’s the sort of character that will commit residency fraud, financial aid fraud via hiding assets, etc.
"But it seems to me that if your child has musical talent and is in the same school community for 5 to 10 years, at some point it is more likely than not that the talent is going to become apparent.
What I am arguing is that you do not have to be a “nosy” parent or one that is meddling into other people’s business to have knowledge of the successes of other students at your child’s school."
Completely agreed. But we’re talking about cross-purposes here. No one is saying it’s nosy or meddlesome to say to your neighbor’s kid – hey, good luck at state! (or whatever), or to know that some other kid is always the lead in the school play and boy, can she sing like an angel.
We are talking about the knowledge of specifics – like other kids’ GPAs, SAT’s, details about their ECs – and the supposed “understanding” of their applications to the extent that we are dumbfounded when they do or don’t get into an elite school.
Because you NEVER know the whole picture of anything from the outside. Never. Unless you are the parent / student, or perhaps a private admission consultant working with them.
It’s like saying that you know someone else’s finances because you see them drive a BMW and hear that they went to the Caribbean and they remodeled their kitchen. No - you haven’t a clue, unless you are their accountant or financial planner. There’s so much behind the scenes – they could be drowning in debt, or they could have more money than God and it just isn’t in a form that is visible to you.
It’s like saying you know someone else’s marriage because they always seemed like they got along so well whenever you went over for dinner, and all their friends say they are great together, and he always buys her flowers on Valentine’s Day, and so you’re dumbfounded that they broke up. No - you haven’t a clue, unless you are one of them or their marriage counselor, what’s going on inside their marriage.
Having a talent doesn’t obligate you to pursue it. It sounds as though this young man has decided that he likes other pursuits more than he likes music. I see nothing wrong with that.
You may know about talents that the child pursued and displayed at school. You may not know anything about talents that they pursued entirely outside of school. My husband’s obsession, throughout middle school and high school, was amateur radio. His involvement in the hobby was both deep and broad – far more intense than that of many adult hams. But unless you were also a ham, you would never have known it because it was something that he did entirely outside of school and rarely mentioned to classmates because they didn’t share his interest.
I did know the numbers for a friend’s child because she told me. Constantly. I was not surprised by any acceptances, but was surprised by some of the choices of the scools on her list. Not in a negative way surprised, just didn’t think the child would want to live in Cleveland or Pittsburgh or NJ. And it turned out she didn’t want to live in those places, which wasn’t a surprise to me at all.
I do remember things people tell me, and they aren’t for a negative reason. I just remember. If you tell me your birthday is June 1, I remember (and probable think of you on June 1). If someone I know gets an award for being in the top 20 at school, I remember. I guess my brain has more room than Pizzagirls’ because this stuff doesn’t just go away. I don’t spend hours worrying about it, it’s just there.
Everything doesn’t have to be negative or a competition. When people say they are surprised that Billy got a scholarship to juliard, it doesn’t have to be a negative, just that they didn’t know that was an interest. Many of the ‘surprises’ from the classmates of my kids were not that they didn’t earn a spot at a certain school but why they chose the school that Sara ended up at or that Hank even had an interest in. Sara picked an enormous state U and it just didn’t seem likely to me. She’s thriving. I’m just surprised it worked out so well and happly for her and maybe the next time I meet a kid like her i wont be so surprised.
I like it when people ask about my kids (except my sister). I’m proud and probably brag on the positives and sweep the negatives under the rug but I’d rather people ask and show interest than not ask about them at all. Were people surprised at their college choices? Absolutely. I didn’t take that as gossip or jealousy or a negative, just as interest.
OP never said the friend’s daughter didn’t have the grades to get into Duke, just that she, OP, felt it unfair that the ECs were misinterpreted based on what the family had told her (and some people share everything), that the charity wasnt real. I think the OP can have all the fact, all the numbers, and just not understand how Duke uses them for admissions.l
Folks who were surprised about where my kids ended up in college didn’t know squat about my kids- except what they could tease out of their “public personae”.
Never the lead in a school play. Never made the final touchdown or won a varsity championship. Never in the town newspaper. Barely a mention or a photo in the yearbook. Not Val, not Sal, not voted “most community minded” as toted up by the number of volunteer “hours”.
So I get that not EVERY HS star is in fact, a star in HS.
I didn’t say there was anything wrong with it. I said that I was a hypocrite, because I had presumed to be surprised by something that I knew nothing about it.
