If parents are claiming to have knowledge of other students GPA’s, SAT’s etc. I would assume that a lot of that information would be coming from their own children. Children share a whole lot more with each other than parents ever would/should. And there actually might be some parents who are willing to share that info themselves - especially if the stats are good.
What other parents extrapolate from that knowledge differs. The OP has extrapolated certain things about college admissions that I think many posters (including myself) believe may have been misguided. My point in my last couple of posts was that I knew a ton about other students that my children went to school with - but it was never info that I sought out. It was knowledge that you absorb from being in the same community for 17 years.
I think Marian’s example of ham radio is a perfect example to illustrate the point being made here.
The point being made here is less about the “nosiness” of knowing what others publicly do and more about the fact that there are plenty of activities that the neighbors simply won’t know about because they aren’t related to “performance,” competition, awards or other visible markers.
Correct, so perhaps there was something about OP’s neighbor’s child that in fact she was not considering when drawing the conclusion that she did. I think that point was made to OP very early on in the thread.
“Oh boy! Two hundred posts since yesterday on “I feel betrayed”! This is going to be a terrific thread,” I thought.
Two hundred posts later, here is a summary for those who don’t want to dig through the whole thread:
Some people massage the truth.
Karma is a b****.
It can be very difficult to become an Eagle Scout.
Or perhaps not.
Mission trips are worthless in terms of admissions.
But not always.
Everybody knows everyone else’s high school stats.
Unless they don’t.
The one thing we all know with certainty is:
Nobody knows exactly why any kid is admitted, waitlisted or denied admission to any school.
First time posting since 2013:) I think OP raised a good concern, that kids do get discouraged by others’ dishonest. By injecting unfairness, they ruined an otherwise fair game for all. In this case, if I know for sure the neighbor’s child did cheat, I would want to have a very long talk with my own kids first, to let them know that cheating is not fair, and worse, now college admissions do not have a good way to detect it; however, cheating is a bad way to get ahead, which says a lot of this person’s shortcomings. I think if this lesson is not driven to kids’ hearts, we risk the real damage cheaters can do to us, which is that they will make our own kids think they have to cheat to get ahead. Love this topic, agree with many thing said here, and will keep reading and learning. Thanks!
Great post and I hope you post this in a new thread to start a conversation about “you never know” how people will turn out which, granted, will probably turn into a brag thread but I don’t suppose that will hurt anything.
Getting back to the main point about OP’s first post, one can never know some things for sure and if you aren’t sure you might not report anything to anyone. However, there are times when looking the other way is a cop out. I call BS on that just because you might not be 100% sure. Sometimes 99% sure, and saying you aren’t sure, but you are pretty darn sure, and reporting it that way even if whomever you reporting it to probably won’t do a dad gummed thing is still the right thing to do. Why? Because it is the right thing to do.
My example of misreporting and blatantly cheating on resumes is the perfect example of why MYOB leaves much to be desired oftentimes. There are certain jobs that can’t be replaced by taking the next one that comes along. Why protect cheaters and liars and let them get ahead? BS. BS squared. That isn’t right. If people don’t get caught now and then it perpetuates the problem. I say hunt them down, smoke them out and report them and let facts be checked and verified.
If I tried to have a long talk about how cheating is bad with my kids at this age, based on something another kid did, their eyes would roll right out of their heads.
I might say something. but really, I can’t imagine a long talk.
And to be clear, the OP’s situation does not scream “cheating” to me. I’m assuming concrete knowledge of some sort of cheating.
If someone who works for me asks me to approve an expense report for $1K in travel expenses that they didn’t incur in exchange for “knocking” a thousand bucks off their annual bonus- because they get the thousand bucks regardless and it costs the company the same thousand bucks- but the travel doesn’t get reported as taxable income whereas the bonus does- that represents actual knowledge that I possess of someone trying to cheat the IRS.
And I’d fire them, but that’s another story.
Hearing from my hairdresser that my neighbor always pays with $100 bills because her husband owns a plumbing contracting business and “everyone knows” that it’s a money–laundering front for the mob and btw, they never have any income to report come April because it’s all 'business expenses" and “write off’s”- that’s not knowledge of cheating or illegal behavior. That’s somebody’s hairdresser blabbing.
People in cash-oriented businesses get audited with greater frequency than folks with W2 income. People with write-offs that deviate from a particular formula get audited with greater frequency than someone whose income and expenses are inline with certain benchmarks.
Do you want to spend your life calling a hotline because somebody’s hairdresser got paid with a $100 bill that she thinks came from the mob? Do you want to spend the next month on the phone calling admissions officers every time you suspect that a kid got into a college where he or she didn’t belong? Do you really care enough about non-violent offenders to put your own life on hold to avenge every wrong doing you see?
If you see someone selling crystal meth to a group of 6th graders at the playground I think you have a duty to call 911. Turning in a HS senior who may or may not have gotten into college on the basis of a charitable endeavor which may or may not have been at all relevant in the context of her admissions file? Hmmm. Not seeing it.
@learning4ever, I too think the more important aspect of the situation OP describes in not whether to “expose” the neighbors, but how do we address this issue with our kids. Yes, I too don’t want my kids to grow up by thinking “only lairs and cheats get ahead in life.” If this happened to me, I would tell my daughter “there must have been something else other than charity (which might or might no be fake) that got the neighbor admitted. If the neighbor kid cheated, it probably wouldn’t have made a difference, but every time you cheat and get away with it, you are more likely to cheat again, and sooner or later it catches up with you.”
I am a bit embarrassed to admit it, but my grandmother was one if those people who believed that “everyone who succeeds is a cheat and a liar,” everyone tries to take advantage of her, etc. Needless to say, my grandmother was not a happy person, and her envy and jealousy turned me off. But I also realize she wasn’t born that way, but probably learned it from her own mother.
Bottom line - one of the things I am trying to teach my daughter is to give everyone a benefit of the doubt and see the best in everyone - I’d rather she go through life naive than bitter.
Reporting on a neighbor - what lesson would it teach OP’s daughter? Especially if GC or college doesn’t act on the report in the way OP can observe?
Fair enough. There might not be enough evidence to report the sham overseas charity thing to anyone and that might not have mattered in the decision to admit that student anyway. But, in other situations, even without perfect knowledge, I say don’t be shy about reporting what you know or think you know and be honest about how reliable your information is. If that upsets people so be it. If you lose “friends” so be it. There are times you have to put yourself in the line of fire even if there are risks.
There’s really not much to support that it’s a sham, though. Other than it wasn’t as generous as it COULD have been (which is the same as if I gave $100 to charity, when I could have given $200).
@eastcoastcrazy:
Great summary.
Except for this:
Mission trips are never useful for college admissions on their own, but they may be worthwhile personally or for colleges if tied to a local action.
On the subject of mission trips the only ones I’m aware of that are helpful at all for admission are ones that allow students to expound on to schools that want to see “demonstrated interest” in a subject. A Heath workers based trip for those wanting nursing schools is the best one I can think of. A trip involving helping with micro-financing in developing nations for certain undergrad b-schools that look at interest. Of course it’s usually easy to demonstrate that interest without this kind of trip but I will say it’s surprisingly difficult to find health based volunteer opportunities in certain communities. ( in our area it’s almost impossible to get a volunteer job at a hospital unless you know a doctor there and/or are a big donor to the hospital)
Funny, because until this thread I had observed a certain reverence on the forum for the accomplishment of Eagle Scout that was not accorded to other accomplishments. In our experience, though, scouting was THE most gamed EC ever–so much so that my son opted to quit because he felt the whole thing was a big sham. Parents who are the leaders can and do sign off on their sons’ non-existent merit requirements or do this collaboratively. “You sign off on my kid, and I’ll sign off on yours,” and yet neither kid actually did anything.
In addition, the group S belonged to did monthly camping trips and jamborees and special events on weekends, during which various things were taught and accomplished and so the boys were required to attend. Kids who played sports, esp. high school sports, simply could not do both scouting and athletics due to constant conflicts. (For this reason, the scouts generally had the reputation of being unathletic.) So imagine my surprise to see a former scouting acquaintance doing xc and track AND Scouts. I asked the father (a leader) how his son managed to do both, since it had been totally impossible for us due to either a meet or practice every Sat. and/or Sun. Well, apparently, there’s some clause about being excused due to engaging in activities in the “spirit of scouting” that allowed his kid to miss all the Saturday events and still get signed off on his achievements. Yeah right. And don’t get me started on the bogus Eagle Scout projects mostly done by Dad. Besides, how many nature trails and prayer walk trails does the public really need???
I would also tell my daughter to be wary of what others tell her, however. If something is too good to be true, it is probably not true. Not sure how to walk that line, but unfortunately, there are plenty of people that will take advantage of you if you let them. The acquaintance selling the new kind of insurance or a can’t fail diet program is probably exaggerating. I think one can be a skeptic, yet not believe everyone cheats.
On the other hand, if you are going to report on someone you had better have evidence beyond what you think you know or may have heard. Hearsay is banned from the courtroom because it is unreliable. Be a whistleblower if you have all the facts, but not if there is reasonable doubt.
Scouting was great for one of my kids. I don’t think the parents thought of their help as cheating: the kids still had to do the actual project construction. I think they saw it more as getting the kid that had been in scouts since first grade a push over the finish line. Kids that perhaps were not as self motivated or organized enough to get the paperwork in or coMe up with a project. They really thought of it as get that eagle done or bust, with a little help from the folks.
I don’t agree with GFG that it was the most gamed EC ever. The boys worked at their badges, did service, went camping and supported each other. There was not a conflict every weekend, but most of the boys were not HS athletes although several were in band, which meant they were not very involved,in scouts in the fall.
I really did not mean to denigrate Eagle Scouts - it is a great achievement, but parents really can’t help themselves from getting involved if their kid is floundering.
That’s really sad if some troop is so corrupt that the parents lie for their scouts. The troop should be reported to the district. Maybe disbanded. But the leaders should be removed. That’s an embarrassment.