<p>Nobody's bashing prestige; we're bashing ppl's obsession with prestige. Ppl here act as though if they don't go to a prestigious school, they're better off dead. Seriously. It's disgusting that prestige seems to be the only thing that matters in your life.</p>
<p>I think you are greatly exaggerating.</p>
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if you really wanted to study to better yourself, you could go to practically ANY university.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I strongly disagree with this point.</p>
<p>In a general sense, if you get any sort of higher education, sure, you'll better yourself. But to what extent? I feel that I can give a relatively valid opinion on this because I go to a school in the top 5 and over the summer I took courses at a state university (ranked somewhere in the 40s). I discovered that the quality of education as well as the environment was much more challenging, enriching, and supportive at the top-tier school. At the state university, no one participated in discussion section, the concepts were covered extremely generally, tests were exactly like homework, the professor told us what would be on the test, people didn't seem to care that much about excelling... it may be that it's because it was summertime, but I can't envision the normal school year being that different. I got A's at the state school, but I barely felt any reward... I felt like I had no challenge and no one was excited about learning.</p>
<p>In contrast, at the top school, I get some B's, but concepts are presented in detail and professors pose questions that cause us to think deeply and analyze and question our own perceptions. Tests aren't plug and chug, and they're often much harder than homework because students are expected to synthesize basic concepts into more sophisticated ones. In discussions, students get excited and eagerly share their views, whether similar or different. There's so much valuable interaction that I never experienced at the state school.</p>
<p>For these reasons, I think prestige is important to a degree because it is a relatively accurate representation of how challenging and inspiring a school's education is.</p>
<p>If I cared so much about prestige, though, I would have gone to Harvard instead of Stanford. I chose the school that I thought I would feel happier at, due to the general attitudes and perspectives of students and teachers (i.e. cutthroat versus warm and helpful). I have no regrets.</p>
<p>I am aware that many people will aim relentlessly for the most prestigious school without taking into account how happy they would actually be there... I think this is unfortunate, and I wish something could come along to discourage this from happening.</p>
<p>why is race so important? The universities, because they value "diversity", make it that way. But let's get real - diversity these days isn't about whether there is ethnic and racial variance in schools. The immigration of Asians to this country has made many, many schools "diverse' - because the Asian continent itself is so diverse. No, what "diversity" is about is ensuring a proportional representation of two groups that suffer significant achievement gaps in this country - African Americans, and to a lesser but still significant degree, Hispanics. (Native Americans, too, but statistically a very small group). Diversity is a code word for justifying proportional representation of these groups - in other words, to these schools, stricken and ridden by white guilt - race matters, often above all else. So little wonder there is a racial obsession. By the way, this does not automatically mean that affirmative action for these two groups is either wrong or right, its just that, please, let's have a little honesty in the discussion, and call diversity out for what it is.</p>
<p>Who was calling diversity anything else? To think of calling a school diverse simply because all the countries of asia are represented is foolish and relies on a very technical definition of diversity.</p>
<p>
[quote]
In a general sense, if you get any sort of higher education, sure, you'll better yourself. But to what extent? I feel that I can give a relatively valid opinion on this because I go to a school in the top 5 and over the summer I took courses at a state university (ranked somewhere in the 40s). I discovered that the quality of education as well as the environment was much more challenging, enriching, and supportive at the top-tier school. At the state university, no one participated in discussion section, the concepts were covered extremely generally, tests were exactly like homework, the professor told us what would be on the test, people didn't seem to care that much about excelling... it may be that it's because it was summertime, but I can't envision the normal school year being that different. I got A's at the state school, but I barely felt any reward... I felt like I had no challenge and no one was excited about learning.</p>
<p>In contrast, at the top school, I get some B's, but concepts are presented in detail and professors pose questions that cause us to think deeply and analyze and question our own perceptions. Tests aren't plug and chug, and they're often much harder than homework because students are expected to synthesize basic concepts into more sophisticated ones. In discussions, students get excited and eagerly share their views, whether similar or different. There's so much valuable interaction that I never experienced at the state school.</p>
<p>For these reasons, I think prestige is important to a degree because it is a relatively accurate representation of how challenging and inspiring a school's education is.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Wow, so you base the quality of a solid Top 40 state university based on a FEW summer courses you just happen to take. That's just brilliant, pretentious, condescending thinking. But i expected no less than a Stanford student to act in a patronizing and condescending manner towards students who actually attend not just a decent, but a solid Tier 1 state university. Thanks for reminding everybody why elitists are corrupting society. What ever happen to having morals and showing respect for others? Why do you have a holier-than-thou attitude towards students at a Tier 1 university?</p>
<p>Phat - you are missing the point - schools are plenty, plenty diverse by any statistical definition relative to the population, except, of course, for African Americans and Hispanics (most within that nomenclature), where achievement gaps are very significant and may, due to a long festering academic and government dispute over drop-out rates, be even more significant than generally realized. So what schools by and large don't have is nearly enough blacks and hispanics to reflect their proportion in society. So if that is the problem, why euphemistically refer to to it as a diversity issue? (Well, we know why, its because it is much more politically acceptable to bow to the shibboleth of diversity rather than say we have significant achievement gaps that Daniel Moynihan predicted over 40 years ago given historical and cultural challenges). Its not a diversity issue - there's otherwise plenty of diversity - its a black and hispanic acheivement gap problem. Let's be honest - rather than hide behind meaningless catchwords that invoke a phony sense of moral superiority with a depressing kind of circularity, let's call it what it is. And more to the point, what would be the harm in doing so?....as I aver, it is the gravamen of the problem.</p>
<p>Mam1959, you conflict me. Your post this morning was totally absurd, yet your most recent post actually had some words in that I really agreed with.</p>
<p>I'll start with a critique of your first post: </p>
<p>
[quote]
why is race so important? The universities, because they value "diversity", make it that way. But let's get real - diversity these days isn't about whether there is ethnic and racial variance in schools. The immigration of Asians to this country has made many, many schools "diverse' - because the Asian continent itself is so diverse. No, what "diversity" is about is ensuring a proportional representation of two groups that suffer significant achievement gaps in this country - African Americans, and to a lesser but still significant degree, Hispanics. (Native Americans, too, but statistically a very small group). Diversity is a code word for justifying proportional representation of these groups - in other words, to these schools, stricken and ridden by white guilt - race matters, often above all else. So little wonder there is a racial obsession. By the way, this does not automatically mean that affirmative action for these two groups is either wrong or right, its just that, please, let's have a little honesty in the discussion, and call diversity out for what it is.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is totally false. Colleges primarily care about diversity because of the educational benifits of diversity. The reality is that a class on American History (for example) is much more valuable for all participants in the class if the students within the class possess a wide variety of opinions and perspectives. One of these crucial aspects is race because each race and ethnic group in the United States has a wildly different history. A good example would be that an African-American student born and raised in an African-American community is likely to have a very different persepctive on Thomas Jefferson than someone who grew up in an all-white suburb. This variety in perspective is the primary reason why colleges care about diversity.</p>
<p>This isn't just me talking out of my ass here either. Colleges care about the make-up of their student body in more ways than just ethnicity. That's why we all submit personal statements in the application process and why its not just based on GPA and SAT scores.</p>
<p>Ok, as for your second post:</p>
<p>
[quote]
schools are plenty, plenty diverse by any statistical definition relative to the population, except, of course, for African Americans and Hispanics (most within that nomenclature), where achievement gaps are very significant and may, due to a long festering academic and government dispute over drop-out rates, be even more significant than generally realized.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Dead on accurate.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So what schools by and large don't have is nearly enough blacks and hispanics to reflect their proportion in society. So if that is the problem, why euphemistically refer to to it as a diversity issue? (Well, we know why, its because it is much more politically acceptable to bow to the shibboleth of diversity rather than say we have significant achievement gaps that Daniel Moynihan predicted over 40 years ago given historical and cultural challenges).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This isn't totally true, its only politically unacceptable to talk about the achievement gap in terms of race in conservative circles. On (mainly liberal) college campuses they will aknowledge the achievement gap between African-American and Latino students and White and Asian students as a key reason for why race matters.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Its not a diversity issue - there's otherwise plenty of diversity - its a black and hispanic acheivement gap problem. Let's be honest - rather than hide behind meaningless catchwords that invoke a phony sense of moral superiority with a depressing kind of circularity, let's call it what it is. And more to the point, what would be the harm in doing so?....as I aver, it is the gravamen of the problem.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think your problem is in the way you talk about diversity. How can there be "plenty of diversity" if there isn't really representation of African-American and Hispanic students. Its almost as though you are characterizing diversity in terms of "white" and "not-white" which really isn't an approrpriate way of looking at the issue.</p>