I Hate Myself For Being An Arm Chair Liberal

<p>I know plenty of white males who got into unis I was rejected to for completely unknow reasons as I matched their scores and stats ounce for ounce and had a better essay...I know, I edited them. Random stuff happens at college admissions, anecdotal evidence of a few URMs who didn't bring 'much to the table' (which is your opinion by the way since you don't know everything about that applicant) really doesn't show that AA is a horrible unequal disaster.</p>

<p>And as I said, the largest benefiters of AA are WOMEN, and women have consistently higher scores than men when applying to top notch institutions. I don't know why I keep bothering to point this out since anti-AAers just pretend it didn't happen and go back to bashing black kids. And since I've seen no other 'evidence' to the contrary, I guess our real problem here is with black people 'taking' your spot, not hispanics, filipinos or native americans. Oh yes, we've progressed soooooo far in terms of acceptance and diversity</p>

<p>"And since I've seen no other 'evidence' to the contrary, I guess our real problem here is with black people 'taking' your spot, not hispanics, filipinos or native americans"</p>

<p>I have no idea where you got that? Where in this thread did it say that? I'm sorry you feel a need to escalate the rhetoric.</p>

<p>And as far as evidence, here's a link to Gratz v. Bollinger </p>

<p><a href="http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/23jun20031600/www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/02pdf/02-516.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/23jun20031600/www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/02pdf/02-516.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>When I said that I meant that all the anecdotal 'evidence' discrediting URMs has been about blacks, not about women or hispanics or native americans, etc.</p>

<p>Yes, when I point it out I'm sure oceans of people will refer me to other experiences, but the simple fact that blacks are the first scapegoats that come to mind speaks volumes</p>

<p>red_dragone, I still don't see where anyone has said anything about specific ethnic groups, but I may have missed it. What thread # is it in?</p>

<p>A few things that I wish someone would explain to me:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>If the urm's DON'T have lower credentials, why does it matter to admissions officers what their ethnic status is?</p></li>
<li><p>Why is it you never see people who support AA give up their own job or withdraw an employment application in favor of a minority? Like the OP says, it's a whole 'nother ballgame when it impacts HIS household, and it's easier to talk the talk than walk the walk.</p></li>
<li><p>AA would seem to make a lot of sense if admissions committees were stocked with bigots who wouldn't give minorities an even shake. But surely that isn't the case. So what is the problem with getting evaluated in a color-blind way?</p></li>
</ol>

<p>SBDad: I still get nightmares. We were fortunate that the URM didn't apply to the place where my son is today. If that had happened, he would have lost and the only alternative would have been a state school (He is really blooming at the place he is at. That place fits him like a glove. Would he have done same at the state school? May be or may be not).</p>

<p>As I have said in a previous thread. The only insurance you can get is to not compete head-on with a URM from your own school - specially if you own school is not that good.</p>

<p>And red_dragone where do you get the idea that URM means only blacks, and who is bashing?</p>

<p>Ethnicity is only one box that an applicant has to tick, and it is optional. There are other pieces of information that are requested: gender, geographical location, whether or not first-generation, intended major, etc....
Ethnicity does matter, as does gender (see the thread about Kenyon) and other factors. These factors are not about combatting bigotry but building diversity. As I've said many times, diversity takes many forms. For my S, for example, it was academic diversity that led him to choose some colleges over others where too many students would be too much like himself. I don't think he even considered the gender imbalance or the ethnic composition of the student body.</p>

<p>21 years ago today I was in the checkout line at 'Draegers'- this is the ritzy supermarket in Menlo Park frequented by Stanford-affiliated professionals and others. The night before had been the worst of my residency- two of my favorite patients had died within 2 hours of each other. In front of me in line were the wives of two of the faculty. I knew them both as they were part of an active auxilliary at the hospital. The conversation the were having was basically an extended whine about their poor daughters one of whom would be going to Duke instead of Brown (her first choice), the other of whom would be at Cal instead of Pomona...the conversation critiqued the wonderful admission results of two kids from East Palo Alto(the wrong side of the track) who were also attending the same high school. YOu can all guess the content.</p>

<p>I was in no mood to listen to them, to indulge them. I hadn't slept, hadn't showered and wanted to bring something yummy home to eat before I passed out..they said hello and I told them I thought that 'Your daughters will continue to mope as long as you indulge them- they should congratulate their classmates and move on to enjoy the wonderful schools they will be attending.' The women told me 'you can't imagine what it feels like.' My first child was 4 months from being born- so I guess they were right.</p>

<p>Often since that time I have thought about the fairnesses and unfairnesses of the circumstances of people's births- the happenstances of wealth or beauty or talent that they luck into....or how through misfortune they are born with birth defects, into abject poverty- without opportunity. I live in a third world country with unbelievably talented people who will never see the inside of a HS classroom, let alone have to suffer at the 40th ranked liberal arts college...</p>

<p>The dice of genetics and birth/adoptive family get rolled. Then, we as parents have one job-- to help our kids to be optimistic, compassionate, playful,tenacious, honest and interesting. You don't need talents or wealth to have these things. Being an URM or first generation college student or legacy hardly guarantees them. I think, I believe, that if you have them they(given evidence of academic abilities that are reasonable) trump a 1500/4.5 who has never had a sincere life challenge/genuinely interesting experience- in the admissions decisions of many schools-- I really do. </p>

<p>But beyond this, and I say this as a pragmatist who still spends day after day in my professional life helping parents cope with the unmentionable....If your kid has them then it's really Harvard Schmarvard...and if they don't have them- you have failed, no matter where they get into college.</p>

<p>I have no idea and I don't care who got into the schools where my boys were WL or rejected- who were the kids with lower stats but greater challenges- the kids with higher stats who might have been less intersting or in my eyes (after all, my kids ARE my kids, so I am their chief advocates)- less worthy..What a waste of time to think about it. Instead, I enjoyed watching the boys 'cope' with yet another event in their life that might not have gone perfectly-- this was not their first experience, it won't be their last-- both were over it in about 30 minutes...</p>

<p>Optimistic, tenacious, interesting, playful....one liberal, one conservative...</p>

<p>Robyrm -- what a wonderful, insightful post. Especially, </p>

<p>"Often since that time I have thought about the fairnesses and unfairnesses of the circumstances of people's births- the happenstances of wealth or beauty or talent that they luck into....or how through misfortune they are born with birth defects, into abject poverty- without opportunity."</p>

<p>Absolutely! Life's not fair -- you can't control everything that happens to you (or your children). All you can control is how you deal with it. EVERYONE's life has disappointment and challenge. Learning -- and teaching our children -- to deal with adversity with kindness, respect, resilience and humor is the most important task in life. Graciousness will get people through a lot.</p>

<p>Beautiful post, robyrm!</p>

<p>Nice, robyrm. Words to ponder and take to heart.</p>

<p>One quibble.</p>

<p>"If your kid has them then it's really Harvard Schmarvard...and if they don't have them- you have failed, no matter where they get into college."</p>

<p>I have seen excellent parents, doing all the right things, raise kids who do not possess the qualities you mention. I think they have done the very best they could and don't consider them failures as parents. Life can be somewhat random that way too, just like college admissions.</p>

<p><<< jlauer has pointed out the basic problem in post 49 many who have issues with AA feel conflicted about. Do colleges have a percent of URMs they are looking to admit; let's say 12% for argument. Therefore, someone like SBDad's child really wouldn't haven't been impacted by whether or not a URM with lower stats was admitted, because they're part of the 12% already alloted. However, are affluent URMs taking the slots away from underpriviledged students who don't have the advantages that goes along with wealth? To me, that's the larger issue that needs to be addressed. >>></p>

<p>Thanks and yes! </p>

<p>In my neighborhood, the URM families are "intact" (kids live with both bio parents) and have the "advantages of wealth". Many of us who oppose AA, don't mind if there are some "set asides" for "the under-privileged" who want (and should have) a college education. The classification of "under-privileged", however, does not know color or ethnic group.</p>

<p>But.... even the practice of having "set asides" shouldn't be ridiculous. It is silly to put students whose scores are so far below their other classmates that they will always be "at the bottom" in each class that they take. Such a practice only encourages frustration and severe blows to one's ego. Such a practice only encourages "dropping out". Such kids should go to college (absolutely) but should go to one where he/she can do well and shine in a class or two! </p>

<p>If my second paragraph is "too hard to swallow" consider it this way. Suppose someone decided that 25% of all Basketball teams must be reserved for non-blacks (so a "more normal" percentage of whites will have a chance to play B Ball). As an attempt to achieve that 25% number, the qualified whites along with whites with just a bit lower stats are selected and that works out okay - but they only make up 15% of the teams. To reach the magic 25%, scouts must dig deep and take whites whose stats are "way below" the teams. So what happens.... Do those "low stats" whites really feel good about this? Are they going to like always being the lowest performers on the team. The whites with "somewhat lower stats" will probably do okay. They will likely improve under the influence of their better team mates. But the ones who are far below will get so discouraged that they will likely quit. Some "set asides" are fine.... but ridiculous ones are not.</p>

<p>In the amicus brief submitted by Harvard University, Brown University, the University of Chicago, Dartmouth College, Duke University, the University of Pennsylvania, Princeton University, and Yale University in support of the University of Michigan,</p>

<p>They state:</p>

<p>We are not so far removed from the days when segregation by race in education, and race discrimination in all sorts of vital opportunities relevant to educational performance, were for many a matter of law.</p>

<p>The major points for affirmative action in their breifs are as follows:</p>

<p>These schools collectively stated</p>

<p>Academically selective universities have a compelling interest in ensuring that their student bodies incorporate the experiences and talents of the wide spectrum of racial and ethnic groups that make up our society. Amici should be free to compose a class that brings together many different kinds of students; that includes robust representation of students from different races and ethnicities; and that prepares graduates to work successfully in a diverse nation. Indeed, highly selective universities have long defined as one of their central missions the training of the nation’s business, government, academic, and professional leaders. By creating a broadly diverse class, amici’s admissions policies help to assure that their graduates are well prepared to succeed in an increasingly complex and multi-racial society.</p>

<p>The colleges presented the following arguments
·<br>
I- Consideration Of Race And Ethnicity In An Individualized Admissions Process Serves Compelling Interests.</p>

<p>A. There Is a Broad Consensus On The Important Educational Benefits of Diversity.</p>

<p>Diversity helps students confront perspectives other than their own and thus to think more rigorously and imaginatively; it helps students learn to relate better to people from different backgrounds; it helps students become better citizens. </p>

<p>The educational benefits of student diversity include the discovery that there is a broad range of viewpoint and experience within any given minority community – as well as learning that certain imagined differences at times turn out to be only skin deep. </p>

<p>It is surely fitting for universities to undertake to prepare their students to live and work in a global economy within a multiracial world. The challenges of contemporary life demand that students acquire not just traditional forms of knowledge regarding science and the arts, but also techniques of bridging differences in perspective and in personal experience.</p>

<p>B. Consideration of Race and Ethnicity Grows Naturally Out Of The Needs Of The Professions and Of American Business.</p>

<p>Every major profession in this country has sought greater diversity within its ranks. Businesses have demanded more minority managers and executives, as well as non-minorities who can work well with colleagues from diverse backgrounds.</p>

<p>Leading corporations, business groups, professional organizations, and executives have repeatedly called for consideration of race and ethnicity in university admissions.</p>

<p>In adopting their admissions policies, universities are responding to “the clearly articulated needs of business and the professions for a healthier mix of well-educated leaders and practitioners from varied racial and ethnic backgrounds.</p>

<p>The Interest In Racial Diversity Cannot Be Served By Race-Neutral Reliance On Factors, Such As Economic Disadvantage, That Are Already Carefully Considered.</p>

<p>The United States urges (as one solution) that universities look to such factors as special economic hardship instead of race. See U.S. Grutter Br. 24-25. But the decisive fact is that all of the suggested race-neutral factors, and many more besides, already enter into admissions decisions. </p>

<p>Consideration of those factors alone does not achieve the distinctly racial diversity that amici seek in their student bodies. To accomplish that goal, admissions committees must give favorable consideration to minority race in addition to those other factors, not instead of them.</p>

<p>By deliberately tilting individual admissions toward “hardship” students in the hope of thereby selecting a large enough increment of minority students to make up for the losses that would result from race-blind admissions – would be disingenuous at best. Such an approach would in truth be a race based policy and not a race-neutral alternative at all. Indeed, such programs, if adopted to assure increased minority enrollment, would be based on race in a causal sense and would thus raise obvious constitutional questions of their own.</p>

<p>A race-neutral preference for economically disadvantaged students, for example, would admit many more whites than non-whites, because of sheer demographic realities. And, of course, the university interest in admitting minority students goes well beyond just admitting minority students from disadvantaged backgrounds.</p>

<p>Race-Conscious Admissions Programs Are Not Open- Ended Commitments.</p>

<p>The decision of a university as to which minority groups deserve favorable consideration in an individualized admissions process designed to foster such diverse representation, and the weight of such consideration, are necessarily and appropriately decisions to be made as a matter of educational judgment, taking into account both the university’s sense of its mission and its best estimate of the leadership needs it will address – not as a matter of conflicting “rights.”</p>

<p><a href="http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/daily/0302/pdfs/amicus_harvard.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/daily/0302/pdfs/amicus_harvard.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>SB Dad,
I too have seen (many) parents whose children are of great concern in spite of terrific parenting...this is often the 'genetic dice' part....and I know better than to be so judgemental....</p>

<p>People preach virtues of AA in College admissions and in work place. How come we never require top orchestra or sports team to have AA as well?</p>

<p>The orchestra performs only few hours a week. The artists spend lots of time together. They would certainly benefit if their ensemble resembled UN - each player would have unique life experiences and stories to tell. If they had that opportunity, their performance would surely improve.</p>

<p>The goal should be to promote diversity (which I support), and it should be achieved by the natural processes rather than an artificial 'quota' system or a check mark in a box. AA is a force-fitted solution to promote diversity.</p>

<p>Simba, I understand your posts, and I think that Jlauer makes some good points about the range of required stats. But when you consider basketball, for example, there is a well defined set of attributes which determine success. The criteria for success in music are also pretty narrow. But the ability to be successful in college is not strictly determined by SAT scores and GPA. When there are more variables involved, there should be a little more latitude. It's probably easier for me to take this position since my son's school is predominantly white -- his competition for certain colleges was kids from a similar demographic background. So it was easy for me to see the vagaries of the admissions process.</p>

<p>I am just about sick of what URM are lacking. As an African American with some Native American DNA too. America had hundreds of years of free and cheap labor out of URM I guess that was the last time we were well qualified. Or maybe that was a form of AA which didn't hurt the majority.<br>
Yes, many URM and poor Whites have poor educational backgrounds because of the inequities in our socioecomonic system.<br>
Okay, change is hard...white privilege just aint what is use to be and many URM are academically competitive. You can't tell a book by its' cover, maybe your S is just not that special in the eyes of the world but don't blame URM. Folks get tired of being the "problem."</p>

<p>Simba:</p>

<p>I remember the times when orchestras discriminated on the basis of gender and ethnicity. Women, for example, were held not to be able to produce as big a volume as men. This kind of discrimination was gradually ended (though I'm not certain whether it has been totally ended) by having applicants perform behind curtains. I have noticed that orchestras today look very significantly different from 30 years ago. </p>

<p>As Sjmom suggests, the only criterion for building an orchestra is (at least now) the ability to play. Still, it does not matter if one is the best violist in the country if the orchestra is looking for a percussionist. The range of diverse qualities an orchestra is seeking, however, pales besides what colleges are looking for. Besides the ability to succeed in college, which many more applicants have than can be accommodated by individual colleges, adcoms look to build a diverse community. It can be academics (more classics majors, fewers future MBAs), it can be sports, artistic talents, geographical orgins, ethnicity, etc... As many have said, highly selective colleges could disregard the decisions they have made and go for the next lot and see very little difference in quality if any. There are just too many highly qualified students chasing the same admissions spots. </p>

<p>I personally would have been really upset if my Ss had been rejected by every single college to which they applied (and I might look more favorably at conspiracy theories :)). But, if they got into one, I would not lament over the ones they did not get into (and S1 did not get into a couple to which he applied) nor wonder in whose favor they got passed over. A student can only attend one college at a time, after all.</p>

<p>Marite, that is the truth, and right about now, there are kids with too many good choices. I am not complaining mind you. But in the end you have to pick just one. The student who I have been helping this year, steering her where she could get in and get good money...doesn't know what to do for choice. I do think, to be happy at this time of year, you have to be smart at the start. If you do your research, you won't worry about who you are competing with. You will have enough lined up that it won't matter.</p>

<p>Mizo,
You know what I am sick of? Unending payback. I am sorry that slavery ever existed, and I am sorry that Native American's land was stolen. But I didn't do it! </p>

<p>Please tell me: When will the payback be over? How many generations will it take to satisfy the ancestors of those who were wronged? In what year will you be satisfied that you have been compensated enough for wrongs done many generations ago. Ever?</p>

<p>My ancestors had it rough, too. Families separated, abysmal work, etc. I'm not asking for compensation.</p>

<p>And as it has been noted, economic hardship may be a better indicator of diversity anyway, and that has nothing to do with ethnicity.</p>