<p><<< You know what I am sick of? Unending payback. I am sorry that slavery ever existed, and I am sorry that Native American's land was stolen. But I didn't do it! >>></p>
<p>I didn't do it either (and neither did ANY of my or my h's ancestors). Many of us came from very poor and abused European ancestory (which is why they migrated here when they could). Should we seek some kind of "payback" from England, Germany, Italy, etc.</p>
<p>We are sorry that some minorities were horribly mistreated by some (not all) whites that lived here. "The Great Society" spent over a trillion dollars trying to correct poverty here. At some point, people need to stand up and say, so and so made it, so can I. (And a person doesn't need a "special admit" to an Ivy school in order to 'make it" in this country.)</p>
<p>It's sort of bizarre that people think colleges would be so dominated by this group or that group if admissions were ethnicity/religion/whatever- blind. THOSE are the people with the dangerous stereotypes. THOSE are the people who think that certain groups are so inferior that they just can't compete without a helping hand from the benevolent guilt-ridden college administrators. AA PERPETUATES attitudes of inferiority--even among minorities themselves. You're not going to change anybody's mind about a certain group being inferior if there aren't opportunities to compete without regard to what happened last century, last year, or last week.</p>
<p>No prestige private college admits ANY students as some kind of payback. They do it because it enhances their institutional mission, specifically the educational quality for ALL students. Since the vast majority of them are white (many of them having been admitted via Affirmative Action for rich, white folks for generations), URM AA (where it exists) is there to benefit predominantly rich, white folks.</p>
<p>That is so nice of those colleges to be so concerned about the wellbeing of "rich, white folks." I bet the rich white folks are glad SOMEBODY is finally looking out for them.</p>
<p>Admissions, employment, etc. have never been blind to race. If they were, there would be no such thing as an under-represented minority. Instead, all groups, whether based on race, ethnicity, gender, etc. would be represented in schools, the workplace, in the same proportion that they're found in the population at large.</p>
<p>If that were the case today, there'd be no URMs and no AA.</p>
<p>Separately, I admit to being puzzled by those who would replace the current version of AA with one based on financial need rather than race or ethnicity.</p>
<p>Seems to me that schools already address financial need via financial aid, scholarships, work study, etc. Even today, Harvard has announced that it will waive parental contributions form those families with incomes of $60k or less.</p>
<p>"I don't see an issue in trying to reconcile self-interest with long held values and beliefs - don't we all do it every day?</p>
<p>I think it's something I have to do, absolutely. If I find myself putting self-interest above values and beliefs, I know it's time to slap myself around (figuratively) and figure out where I went wrong. Which is exhausting, but seems the only way to be a peson I can live with."</p>
<p>Isn't that what the poster was doing by posting her in the first place and opening himself to criticism? It's clear that he's reading and considering the other points of view and trying to reconcile them with the statistics and with his personal concerns.</p>
<p>
[quote]
In my neighborhood, the URM families are "intact" (kids live with both bio parents) and have the "advantages of wealth". Many of us who oppose AA, don't mind if there are some "set asides" for "the under-privileged" who want (and should have) a college education. The classification of "under-privileged", however, does not know color or ethnic group.
[/quote]
I suppose folks making such statements don't believe that, regardless of "intact families" and "advantages of wealth," a) students from such URM families bring notably different experiences into the campus community and b) many of their accomplishments are still achieved akin to running with weights strapped to the ankles. And I'm pretty sure that Mini can cite the data that shows disparities in, say, SAT scores on the basis of race, [i/]even at the wealthiest levels.*</p>
<p>
[quote]
And speaking of fish, the whole "wouldn't trade places" discussion is such a red herring.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>SBDad, I commend you for having made it repeatedly clear in this thread that you are supportive of AA. However, my quote isn't a red herring in terms of URM admissions decisions: as a thought experiment, anyone who truly believes there are no marked disadvantages to having URM status would leap at the opportunity to gain the alleged advantages of having a URM card to play. If a person thinks, "No, I wouldn't do that...," it's an admission that perhaps there are disadvantages to URM status and maybe those disadvantages should be considered in the context of college admissions.</p>
<p>I'll have to roll that one around in the noggin for a while, thedad, because right now it's really not making sense to me.</p>
<p>So my thought process is:</p>
<ol>
<li>I believe there are no marked disadvantages to having URM status. OK, I'll believe that and believe that I grew up the privileged son of an upper class URM and attended a tony prep school.</li>
</ol>
<p>2.I'll take the opportunity to play the URM card at admissions time.</p>
<p>I'm not being facitious, just trying to make the point that ecomonic disadvantage is really the issue, not race.</p>
<p>Okay, but SBDad, I guess I'm not seeing that consideration here. I'm seeing a lip service to what you'd like to believe, while an actual agreement with those who don't believe in it. I guess I'm not seeing why it's hard to reconcile if it's really a core principle. Isnt that what principles are about?</p>
<p>And echoing Thedad, you really don't believe that a rich URM who went to a "tony Prep school" doesn't carry extra weights that you and I don't have to ever think about?</p>
<p>SBDad, I believe you and I believe that you're one of the few. </p>
<p>Given the option, I wouldn't put up with all the crap that one gets as a URM, regardless of income or social situation...ranging from pre-K through professional peak in adulthood. All of which leads to different perspectives, different experiences, and, yes, some compartive disadvantages, even when adjusted for income.</p>
<p>And I'll come to you from another direction: I'm not a liberal. (pauses while a few people fall over...they don't know what liberals are, maybe I can give them a guided tour). And while I believe in AA, I have a lot of reservations about how it's implemented idiotically in any number of situations. I just don't believe that college admissions is one of them.</p>
<p>"Admissions, employment, etc. have never been blind to race. If they were, there would be no such thing as an under-represented minority. Instead, all groups, whether based on race, ethnicity, gender, etc. would be represented in schools, the workplace, in the same proportion that they're found in the population at large."--NYCDad</p>
<p>Ok, back to one of my previous questions...If the assumptions above are true, then who is it at all these rich colleges that has been keeping the URMs out for the past couple decades? Who is it that has been ensuring that they don't have the same % as in the general population? Seems like even WITH lower standards it's hard to get the student % to mirror the general population. So according to your approach, somebody must REALLY be screwing with the system to keep the URMs out. </p>
<p>And to follow your logic, then any time a particular ethnic or religious group is present in some prestigious college or profession above their % in the general population, it's not because they are for whatever reason in general better at the skills needed to gain admission or get a job...it's because somebody has been discriminating against URMs. So if you want to rectify the problem, it sounds like you'd be in favor of focusing on the particular racial and religious groups that have MORE than their % of slots in great colleges and in lucrative professions, and make sure they get back down to their rightful % that mirrors the general population.</p>
<p>I admire you that you never, ever questions your core beliefs even when faced with personal sacrifice. I will admit to sometimes waivering and questioning my principles in the face of adversity. Hopefully, I will always make the right choice.</p>
<p>And where did I say I actually was in agreement with those who don't believe it. I think there is a difference between agreeing with someone and respecting the validity of their position.</p>
<p>I didn't say that the URM doesn't carry extra weights - of course they do. I was given a choice and, given all the factors, was making one. If they did not carry extra weights, it wouldn't be any choice at all, would it?</p>
<p>Yes, mini, please tell me EXACTLY who it is that is keeping the URMs out. Is it the admissions people? Is it a conspiracy by guidance counselors? Are the SATs being altered? Is it those nasty teachers?</p>
<p>"I admire you that you never, ever questions your core beliefs even when faced with personal sacrifice. I will admit to sometimes waivering and questioning my principles in the face of adversity. Hopefully, I will always make the right choice"</p>
<p>What a gracious post. I admire your humanity and willingness to admit to being a work in progress.</p>
<p>There's a reason why most minority children grow up to aspire to be rich: it's the best they can hope for while most white children have that dream of being president. </p>
<p>Even the wealthiest URM at the wealthiest private school faces many unspoken but very real expectations like providing the 'diverse' perspective, like watching rich whites sing rap songs mocking their background, like steering your aspirations away from certain fields, like having to always prove that you belong in the classroom as more than a 'credit to your race' even though you're smarter than a number of the whites. Like feeling that you are only an unwelcome prop and that you don't belong. Like being regularly asked by campus police for your ID because you have a moustache or the wrong complexion. Like hoping that the white faculty doesn't write your views off as 'radical'. These may sound inconsequential. But, they can collectively make every day a battle for your identitiy which can easily get in the way of academics.</p>
<p>Chris Rock said it best, none of you would want to trade places with me, and I'm Rich!</p>
<p>"Yes, mini, please tell me EXACTLY who it is that is keeping the URMs out. Is it the admissions people? Is it a conspiracy by guidance counselors? Are the SATs being altered? Is it those nasty teachers?"</p>
<p>I think you're an intelligent guy, and if you really wished to, I'm sure you have more than enough capacity to figure that out for yourself.</p>