<p>Cangel, many fine schools will "take a chance on" your son. Lots of elite schools are talked about on CC and of course your other child was in that league, but there are a lot of great schools that will be interested in your son. The search for schools will be different and maybe a little tougher but there are lots of places that will want your special son even if his "numbers" aren't the best. It sounds like he has lots going for him and he'll have to find ways to demonstrate that on the applications. I have had to search for schools for students with stats like these and while it is trickier in some ways, there really are lots of schools in that range and they sound pretty terrific.</p>
<p>By no means did I intend to say that every athlete and URM are in the bottom of the class. If we're frank about numbers though, colleges are way more likely to bend on stats for those 2 groups, legacies, development kids and other groups they aim to please. I dare say we're getting awfully close to 50% when we add the kids from all these groups up. URMs at an elite, about 20%. Legacies 10%. An unknown but large percent of athletes. An unknown but smaller percent of development candidates. With overlap, who knows, but we're talking a lot of kids.</p>
<p>I also don't mean to suggest that all kids at public schools are unprepared. Again, let's just go with liklihood. My nephews go to an incredible public school in Ohio in a town which taxes itself enormously to create such a school. In California we can't do this. In all liklihood, the brighest public school kid has not experienced anywhere near the rigor in the classroom that a kid at a top private has. Nothing at all to do with intelligence, everything to do with exposure and preparation. Kids at my local high school in a very affluent part of LA graduate never having written the kind of research paper that kids write in the freshman year at our good privates. No money, large classes (40 in some APs this year), over taxed teachers.</p>
<p>At our private we have our share of kids who would not be there based on their stats. Many spend hours daily with tutors to keep up. After 4 years, I believe most, by rote, could make it through any college short of Caltech.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The real question here is what it does to a smart young person's self esteem to always feel less than. A child that would be at the top most places feeling like a runner up.
[/quote]
I can't say that this is or isn't true. But I question it. I was at the top of my hs and college. Then I went to Stanford Business School. I wasn't at the top. Don't know where I "ranked," as it is never discussed (until the top 10% is identified at graduation week-I wasn't in it LOL) and all classes are Pass/Fail. But I can tell you that at a very selective program like this, chinks in self-esteem are not so much of an issue, as the validation of just being there is a self-esteem booster. To the extent that self-esteem comes from such outside validation. Perhaps it works the same way if someone is accepted to a highly selective college or university, especially if - like the OP's daughter - she has always compared herself unfavorably to her hs peers. Now, if she is rejected from the school - this might hurt the self-esteem. But might work out in the end in the way that many posters are saying - being in the upper half of the student body.</p>
<p>It can work a lot of ways.</p>
<p>jmmom, as a fellow GSB graduate, I think our self esteem is established by that point.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Also, while this applies more to boys than to girls, parents need to remind seniors that they are not picking a school that will make them happy at 17. They are picking a school which will give them a thrill when they are 20 and 21.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Interesting statement. Would you elaborate? Do you think a school that is possibly not a good "fit" that freshman/soph year might develop into one in junior/senior years? Are you speaking of maturity? Learning to cope with stress?</p>
<p>The US News rankings aren't just about prestige. It's educational quality. Bragging rights are bonus.</p>
<p>Zagat, the way I see it with the student body in a top prep school is that a huge majority are top students academically and thus schools like your kids' school do send a lot of kids to elite colleges and they are well prepared, etc. The thing in a typical pubic school is that we may have less kids like the ones that attend your prep school but we have SOME kids just like that who COULD HAVE gone to your prep school but did not. Ability-wise, they are just as qualified. Actually, I have read my D's guidance counselor report and he happened to comment in his narrative (this was something on his mind, I suppose) that my D could have gone to any elite private prep school but did not. Maybe he said that because some in our community with kids like mine have chosen to send their kids away to boarding school (we don't have day private schools nearby). Anyway, I know we each speak from experience, but I can tell you that the preparation my children had in their Honors classes was excellent (not that I think we have a great school or anything) and that the work was very demanding. My kids often had four to five hours of work per night and wrote many many papers, both the research type and analytical papers. Both have done very well at selective schools when it comes to writing. Actually, both have already had an instance when their professors said they were one of the top writers in the class. </p>
<p>Back to the idea of if one wants to be a big fish in a small pond or not be at the top in a demanding school.....speaking for my own kids (and all kids feel differently), my kids prefer very challenging learning environments. They do not like when the work is too easy. They also like being with other motivated types. So, they cared a lot about that in choosing colleges. They stood out in our local school or community but now they go to schools or programs that are highly selective where there are tons of kids like them. They love it. But each kid must think through what she wants in a college in this regard. I have to admit that they have healthy self esteem and confidence so I don't think they care if they are not the big standout on campus. However, they are as able as the next kid at their colleges and so don't feel inferior at all. They don't necessarily want to be the top kid because they feel challenged by being with lots of top kids.</p>
<p>IVORYK: Listening to you and your descriptions of your D, I can't imagine anybody more likely to suceed in college than your D.</p>
<p>Soozie, sounds like you have a great high school in your community. Feel lucky, we don't have anything close.</p>
<p>Zagat, I would never ever call our HS a great school. Many would not. My husband surely would not. My bet is you surely would not. But ya know, I think they got a decent education and the highest tracked classes were challenging. I think our high school is just fair but I can't complain about my kids' education and they were well prepared and it was just fine. I am sure both would have enjoyed going away to elite boarding schools or performing arts high schools but they didn't. We could not afford that, would not send them away for HS, and also think there is something to be said for public school (hubby and I both went to public high schools but very selective private colleges and graduate schools). I think there is a lot to be said in going to an ordinary high school with kids from a variety of backgrounds, some who are not even going to college. Now, for college, my two children are enjoying their highly selective environments and the kids they are meeting there. It is very different than their home community and their home friends but they love both for different reasons. Just saying that nobody would ever describe our HS as great. My feeling is that many of you with kids in good suburban publics or private schools would shun our HS. But my kids did all right. </p>
<p>There are even some things that I am glad they had that they wouldn't at a "better" school. They didn't have the competitive atmosphere. Their teachers and guidance counselor know them very well. The school wasn't so large so they were able to participate in many things. They benefitted by mixing with kids from a variety of socio-economic backgrounds. There are lots of pros in going to a much better high school than theirs. But in its own way, my kids had some pros too. Also, their teachers did not teach to any national tests. In English and History, they used primary sources with much reading and writing. There are so many things that are much better at a top private than our school, believe me. But there are some nice things about going to a place like this too. We don't nearly have the course offerings that better schools have. Still, the arts are very strong at our little rural school (they even won a Grammy award). But there is lots and lots that is not so hot. So, you won't have me saying they went to a great HS. But it surely was good enough. My kids did independent studies, accelerated and other accomodations. They made the most of what was available. I feel they are just as prepared as the next kid. They went to a much crappier school than your kids go to FOR SURE. But that didn't put them at the bottom of their very selective colleges. They are doing real well at college. That's all I was saying.</p>
<p>I wonder how big the challenges are for kids who are well prepared, when they are comfortably in the middle with tons of kids just like them and when they have writing skills at the top of the class. I guess the level of challenge is a relative thing.</p>
<p>EDad,
Because writing is not the only thing they do at college. </p>
<p>In D2's case, she is in a demanding BFA program in Musical Theaer with some of the most talented kids in the country. There is a 7% admit rate into her program. She has found the challenge just right. In writing, she happens to be a gifted writer. Because of her level, the writing professor gave her things to challenge her further since her writing was advanced. She told her she was one of the best writing students in the course. It was a required course. She also invited her to an upper level honors writing course though she is not taking that this year as she has other courses and requirements. Writing is just one small facet of her academic life.The past two years, she placed out of a required Music Theory course in her program by examination on the first day of each school year. Again, my point is that she comes from a HS that many would consider crappy but it is the student who is accepted to a college, not which HS they came from. Kids from many schools can be capable even if they didn't attend some elite prep school. The kids from the top private high schools do not then equate to the top 50% at their colleges once they get there.</p>
<p>Other D finds her courses very challenging. I don't know if her writing is better than everyone at her school. I HIGHLY doubt it. But she is as capable as the next person given her grades. It was just ONE class where the professor used her exam essays as exemplary in front of the class. My point was that their classes, colleges, and peer group are challenging to them because the other kids are really good students, but they are able to hold their own even though they did not go to a top public, a private or prep school, and in the case of D2, did not go to a performing arts HS like many of her classmates. They are not at the top of the heap at their colleges but my point was that they were not in the "bottom 50%" as referred to in another post in contrast to kids coming out of selective private high schools. They definitely find their schools quite challenging and demanding but they are able to succeed, hold their own, and I guess you could say "compete" though neither try to compete with anyone but themselves and in fact, at D1's college, an Ivy, it is a very non competitive environment which she loves. People tend to collaborate there.</p>
<p>Soozie, no matter what the child's school, private or public, parents are the other key factor. Not surprised to hear that you and DH both went to highly selective schools. And if I recall correctly, don't you have a grad degree in education from Harvard? I'm sure they got a great deal at home.</p>
<p>S, you certainly have every right to be proud and I would agree that a public HS education need not be a limitation. It seemed to me that the OP was concerned about her daughter being admitted to a college which was either a poor fit or excessively challenging or maybe both. I am just not sure I understand how your daughters' experiences relate to this concern. I guess that is for the OP to decide.</p>
<p>Zagat, yes, I do agree. I was saying (I forget which thread today already!) that kids whose parents are involved have advantages! Yes, I did go to grad school at Harvard. And yes, I think my kids got some things at home. They had lots of support, parents who drove them to lots of things (LOL), and enrichment in the home. In fact, last semester, older D wrote a paper...hope I can recall this correctly....for a class that had to do with culture and behavior...and hers had to do with how the culture affected development and besides the research aspect, she used a personal case history and she queried me in depth about all the activities we did when she was a young child and how these affected her development. I have a background in early childhood development (undergraduate) and was formerly a teacher of young children and so a lot of the casual activities my kids did at home and then outside the home had the influence of someone who had materials, activities and such who was familiar with all that. I had to dig out all these samples of the things we did (I have saved everything....I often used my kids' samples in college courses I have taught on the subject) and she quizzed me so much about everything she had done to help her jar her memory and she used those anecdotes in the paper that related to her research. It was like a trip down memory lane for me.</p>
<p>As far as writing goes, my kids started to write a lot before they ever entered formal schooling. Then, I have to say that our elementary school truly was a fanastic school (I don't say that so much about our MS or HS, however) and not only did they individualize and allow the kids to work at their own level, as well as had multi age classrooms, but they highly valued writing. The kids wrote a lot in elem school. My younger D had many independent studies the school arranged for her in her program. I recall a 15 page research paper she wrote when she was 8, a 90 page musical she wrote when she was 10, among lots and lots of other writing. Even our state values writing and requires Writing Portfolios for state evaluations in 4th and 10th grades (I may be skipping one grade there, I forget now). We were able to arrange, through advocating, for D2 to take a creative writing course in 8th grade with the 12 grade (her elem school advocated for this as well). She also took a college level essay writing course that year at age 13 through Johns Hopkins long distance. In another MS class, through independent study, she wrote a short story book and in another did a 60 page research with power point. She did many in depth research independent studies that were arranged over the years. We do not have gifted programs in our school system, nor in our state. Accomodations had to be made based on learning needs (these examples just touch on writing but there were other accomodations in math and foreign languages, including acceleration and independent studies). </p>
<p>So, kids like this exist in all communities, despite how good their schools are. If the child requires further challenge, hopefully one can work with the school and advocate to have those learning needs met. We did do that. It was easy in elementary school because the school WANTED to do that and THEY called meeting to create plans for the kids. When D2 graduated elem, the principal and grade five/six teacher went into the MS to advocate for her learning needs. Our middle school tends to suck, I have to say. We were spoiled by a great elem school. However, I am sure you would find our HS to not be up to par. Some here have sent their kids away to boarding schools. In fact, interestingly, while D1 was the only child in her graduating class to attend any Ivy, a peer of D2's went away to boarding school (to get a "better" education) and he has now just entered D1's Ivy. Same finish, different path to get there. But, yeah, both families have educated parents who have had an impact on their lives, no question.</p>
<p>Edad, I apologize if the discussion morphed some though that can happen in a thread. I think this tangent was because I responded to a comment from Zagat about the bottom half of the class at an elite college and comments related to that with students coming from selective prep high schools. So, I got into a conversation about that. One thing led to another. Sorry about that.</p>
<p>As you can see in my post #52, I was responding to a comment you made in post #51. So, that can happen sometimes in a conversation. My initial posts on this thread did try to respond to the OP's concerns. Sorry that later on one post led to another.</p>
<p>I was just having some difficulty following the thread. No apology is necessary. This forum is enjoyable because of all the different ideas. I don't think any of us try real hard to keep to the original posted issue.</p>
<p>One thing to consider is that is the fall semester of her last year of high school. Many students are in the "I don't want to grow up and move on" stage at this point. Could her choice of the elite school be because her friends are probably going there and she is afraid to separate from them? This is especially true at private high schools where the student body is extremely tight-knit. I teach at a school where some of the seniors have been attending since pre-school and most of the graduating class have attending for at least 10 years--more than half their lifespans. One of their biggest challenges each year is letting go and going to different colleges after graduation.</p>
<p>Yes, mkm. When I look at my 17 year old, I am tempted to extend his AMAZING high school experience. He's so happy at the moment. On the other hand, he's getting dose after dose of testosterone and he hasn't yet reached that last stage of intellectual development. Huge important hunks of his brain aren't working properly. I need to guess where he will be when those components flicker on and start cooking with gas (testosterone).</p>
<p>Already, he's accelerating faster than my ability to adjust to his new maturity. For example, we went on an island vacation last month. He read
"1812: Napoleon's March on Moscow". For fun. In 72 hours. He's always been a reader, but devouring non-fiction? That's new and that's just a hint of what's to come in the next few years.</p>
<p>His 20 year old brother loves 500 level courses and, having tasted them, can hardly bring himself to attend 200 level courses. The rate of his acceleration is catching his PR firm (his parents) by surprise, I can tell you. </p>
<p>When they were in primary and secondary school, my theory was that I wanted them in a school where the standards were extraordinary so that when they aimed for the 'average', (as boys do), they'd end up on the high end of the learning scale. Now, I want to make sure they are in a university with high ceilings so that when their ambition kicks in, they can take off toward those cloud palaces.</p>
<p>Ivoryk, I think there are two separate issues here the size of the college and its intellectual and academic intensity. You can find LACs that are insanely intense and large universities that although prestigious are fairly laid back.</p>
<p>Im one of the several parents on this board whose child attends a small LAC. For my son it was absolutely the right choice for all the usual suspect reasons. There are certainly other parents here who would say the same thing about their childrens schools whether their size is 4,000 or 40,000 students. One size does not fit all.</p>
<p>Same goes for intensity. My son tended to be inconsistent in his drive to excel in some areas he was very focused, in others he lost focus so I worried about his being at an academically rigorous school, but in the end hes enjoyed the challenge and benefited from being around intellectually intense kids.</p>
<p>Of course, its impossible for us to gauge what the right school would be for your daughter. All you can do is make sure that she is exposed to -- and hopefully applies to -- a balance of different type of schools. </p>
<p>If her #1 school is on an EA or even an SCEA admissions system, then applying early isnt irrevocable. As long as she continues to consider a range of schools the final decision doesnt need to be made until April.</p>
<p>If its an ED school, however, then youll need act quickly. You indicate that you feel your daughter is being swayed by pressure -- from her peers or her instructors or counselor. Or maybe its internal pressure not uncommon among teens. </p>
<p>Wherever the direction is coming from, if you intuit that your daughter is heading down a road that ultimately isn't going to lead her to success and happiness, youll need to ramp up your efforts to help her evaluate the pros and cons of various choices. As a parent you can't do any more than that.</p>