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I thought she would be turned off by the requried PE classes (4). She is not athletic. She surprised me by being excited about it. "I've always wanted to try fencing!" "I'd love to play more tennis but I've never had enough time."
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<p>This is an aside to Binx - my D is at a school with required PE credits and it has been one of the best things about the school for her personally. She was totally unathletic and is from a hopelessly unathletic family. She embraced the PE requirement and learned to ski, and took rock climbing which she learned worked better in the gym than on the rock face ;). But anyway, she is learning to enjoy being active and developing a habit of walking for exercise, and searching out a class to keep active - all of which will be very good for her health in the future. I say your D should go for it!</p>
<p>My view is that she should go where she wants. We're going through a similar situation--my daughter, who has very good credentials, and would have a good chance to get into some very selective schools, wants to go to a school where she's an absolute lock for admission (based on numbers--she's got them), and which, on overall USNews rankings, is in the 75-100 range. Her reasons are academic (at the top of her chosen major, likes the Honors College, which she'll get into), and social (she's visited, talked to a number of people who are, or have been there, and she feels very, very comfortable). She's getting questions/pressure from her peers, who keep asking why she isn't trying to go to a school which is more highly ranked overall. The notion that she's happy, looking forward to college, unriddled with senior year angst, and has made a choice which is great for the future career which interests her seems lost on many.</p>
<p>MilwDad has it exactly right. It's not about what others think, it's about what you and she think. It's not as if she's choosing a community college instead of Harvard, where you'd wonder why she would possibly make such a choice--she's choosing between two good schools, one of which is "higher ranked". A higher ranking is not enough to overcome happiness.</p>
<p>My guess is that this mom is afraid her daughter will not be successful at her chosen school. Sounds like the mom would know, she's watched the daughter in a competitive environment for at least 4 years.</p>
<p>This is a problem faced by many families who have a strong connection at a top college and know a lesser qualified kid will probably be taken because of that connection. Not a problem I've seen discussed here on CC, but one much discussed at top private schools. Afterall, many kids in every town's top privates are there because of the family legacy, too.</p>
<p>My experience with very good private schools has been that the kids have an outstanding record in completing college. Even the ones who get into better schools than their stats would indicate because of development, legacy, celebrity, school contact issues.<br>
There are a number of colleges that are not necessarily so selective that are very rigorous, and that may be the situation here. Or the school is very big, and there are signs that this student would do better in a smaller, more personal environment. I do notice that the private schools tend to advocate LACs where the chances are better for kids who have been in this environment to continue. In my son's school, the kids who have returned from even tough colleges are agreed that highschool was academically more difficult for them. They are revelling in their choice of courses, have an easier time than most kids in researching and writing papers and studying for difficult exams with questions not given out before hand. I know one mom from a couple of years ago who was dismayed that her son wanted to go to USC instead of a north east LAC, but he is doing fine. But I know she was worried at the time that the school would be too big and impersonal.</p>
<p>I agree with cpt. Kids from rigorous privates are ultra prepared in terms of writing, doing research papers and are used to heavy competition. This college sounds a lot like Duke. As all of us have recently read, they take many kids without the stats. Chances are she'll do fine. But it's hard for a mom watch a kid choose an environment for the status when you deeply suspect they'd be happier somewhere else.</p>
<p>While this is not the same as the OP who has a D at a top private HS, I think there are issues in general with what bobby is saying. I worked with a student, who did not go to a private school (so I realize this case doesn't fit what is written in the last few posts) and his top choice school appeared to me to be a FAR reach. His stats were nowhere in range, plus the school had a 45% admit rate. He had VERY low stats (not what some here think of low...I'm talking SATs in the 900s, ranked in the bottom 10% of the class, GPA of 2.9, no Honors or AP classes, etc). I have no clue how he got in except for I know the family had some connection who was going to pull for the student (I was not a part of that and I didn't think these things were possible unless from a very high ranking person type thing and this wasn't the case, in my view). I do wonder when a kid is able to be admitted to a school that may be beyond them or where they would be at the low end of the admitted students, how it works once they get there. Perhaps it works just fine, and it is quite an individual thing. It is something to think about.</p>
<p>I watched my son go to the college of his choice, knowing full well that it was the wrong choice, just hoping I was wrong. He was just too focused on things that were irrelevant to day to day living anywhere. So I know how hard it is to let them make their choice when you know it is a mistake. On the other hand, I have seen kids do fine when their parents were sure the school was a mismatch.</p>
<p>Similar situation here...My son says he has worked hard for his stats and wants to go somewhere where he will be with like kids. My thought is that he would be happier where his stats are above average. Perhaps, it is because I would rather not go to one of the ultra elite schools. I'd rather be where there is a more normal range of stats and ambition. Peole are interesting for all different kinds of reasons. But it is hard to step back even though I understand we are at very different places in life and looking from different views.</p>
<p>In the end, I think it is up to the kid to decide because she/he is the one who will attend. I don't think a parent should express their favorites or preferences. They can help raise questions and make sure the student has explored certain issues or differences between schools and ask the student their pros/cons and reasons for their choices, but the process should be driven by the kid. This is their first big "adult" decision and they are the ones who have to attend.</p>
<p>Again, thank you all for such thoughtful responses. My daughter is a very good student, but she works VERY hard. Her scores are fine, but below what most in her (scary bright) class have pulled in. Though a happy, well-adjusted kid, she has gone through the past few years feeling like she's not quite as smart as those around her. My fear is that that dynamic would continue into college. My hope if that once these kids get settled on a campus -- wherever it is -- they will stop comparing grades incessantly, and no one will ever mention the initials S-A-T again!</p>
<p>My youngest wanted to go where he felt he "deserved", after working hard through high school. Now he kinda wishes he opted for being "one of the brightest" instead of just run of the mill. He continues to work very hard and it has left little time for enjoyment in college.</p>
<p>My other two chose schools where they were prob. above the 75% mark and consequently did very well with not a tremendous amount of effort and also had time to thoroughly enjoy their schools.</p>
<p>On the other hand, the older 2 kids have totally different more laid back personalities than #3 child and maybe the youngest kid would push and stress himself no matter where he attended.</p>
<p>Ivory, I don't know your D's stats, or interests, but she might like a school like Brown, where my D goes because nobody talks SATs and grades, and they don't compete with one another. Yes, they are all bright and hard workers like your D. The competitive atmosphere is not present. </p>
<p>I do feel it is too bad in your D's school environment (though I am sure it is a great school) and like Whitman High in "The Overachievers", that the kids talk about college admissions a LOT with one another, compare SAT scores, where they are applying ED and so on a LOT. After reading about such schools, I must admit that I am grateful that my kids did not have that going on in HS at all. Very different school and community climate. College admissions is overwhelming enough without all that pressure from the community and peer group. </p>
<p>Tell her that on some college campuses, this kind of thinking does not exist. I only offer Brown as one example.</p>
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Her scores are fine, but below what most in her (scary bright) class have pulled in. ... she has gone through the past few years feeling like she's not quite as smart as those around her. My fear is that that dynamic would continue into college.
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I have spoken with other parents of kids (including my S) who were among such high achieving peers, in such a strong hs, that they were never academically at "the top," although they might well have been in another school or even in another year at the same school. My S had a strong GPA (weighted and unweighted, but not top 10% in his particular class), great recs, but lackluster SAT scores.</p>
<p>Although I agree with all of the views regarding not over-reaching, not seeking a school purely for the prestige, I believe it is also possible to underestimate what your D can do.</p>
<p>I was glad my S chose Tulane, a strong school but, not being among the elite, a place where he could excel and enjoy the feeling of being at "the top." So, I know how you feel. What I had the good fortune :rolleyes: to learn since he has now attended 3 (!) schools due to Katrina/Engineering phase-out, is that he was <em>very</em> well-prepared at his hs and can perform very well at quite selective/competitive/demanding schools. His GPA at Bates College (top 25 LAC) was even a bit higher than his Tulane GPA, in demanding math/science-heavy courseloads at each school. He has just started at JHU (similar size but much higher ranked than Tulane) so it is a bit early to tell, but he describes the workload there as "manageable." </p>
<p>So, my message is, don't prematurely divert your D from a place you feel may be too much of a challenge. She may be better prepared than you think. Just another aspect to consider.</p>
<p>Points very well taken. I would hate to hold her back. Our school does say its graduates come back saying they were extremely well prepared for college. In defense of the school, I should also point out the pressure is coming from other kids -- not from the faculty or the administration -- they are quite supportive and nurturing. Also the climate of the east coast is to blame, and Philadelphia, in particular, where we have nothing to be snobbish about except our many wonderful institutions of higher education! </p>
<p>My daughter doesn't know what she wants to study yet, so one concern of a larger top university is that she'd be doing her exploring among already-directed students -- and top ones at that. I think if she wanted to "try on" say -- business -- it would be intimidating to take classes in a prestigious business school, whereas some of the smaller LACs might have broader-based introductory courses.</p>
<p>It's been very helpful reading your responses. I feel like I'll sleep a little easier tonight!</p>
<p>The part about wanting to explore, as opposed to coming into college with a set direction, can be accomplished at schools other than LACs, though LACs are certainly a great option. Sorry to bring up Brown again, but at that university, you can explore anything you want. It has an open curriculum!</p>
<p>I think those of us with kids at highly competitive privates can lose perspective on the real world in many ways. At very top privates, half the class will often go to the most selective colleges. The other half mostly end up in top 30-50 schools. </p>
<p>These kid will find less competition at most colleges. All of them. With college's efforts to build a well rounded class, the bottom half of those classes are going to be the athletes, the ones they bend over backwards to take for diversity, etc. Not a kid in the 50% of a top private high school.</p>
<p>The real question here is what it does to a smart young person's self esteem to always feel less than. A child that would be at the top most places feeling like a runner up. We know many kids that fit this description, and personally, I would not want my kid in this situation. So I see what the OP is feeling and think she knows things her 17/18 year old could not possibly know.</p>
<p>"With college's efforts to build a well rounded class, the bottom half of those classes are going to be the athletes, the ones they bend over backwards to take for diversity, etc. Not a kid in the 50% of a top private high school."</p>
<p>I don't agree with this statement. The bottom HALF? Clearly the so called bottom half stats wise at a very selective school are not all athletes or URM. Athletes and URM do not comprise 50% of the school population. Further, to label all athletes or URM as having lower stats or capability is just not true or fair. While there may be some that fit that description, clearly not all do. I know athletes, for example, who are tippy top students. </p>
<p>I also don't believe that just cause a kid went to a highly competitive private that she is more capable than those entering elite colleges who came from unknown publics. I have a kid, for example, who was a top student in an unknown rural public, who attends an Ivy, is doing very very well there, has no problem keeping up whatsoever (she happens to be a varsity sport athlete but was NEVER a recruited one). </p>
<p>While I agree that a huge chunk of kids who attend competitive private prep schools are top students who can perform anywhere, surely there are top students just as competitive who come from unknown non competitive high schools, may be athletes, may be URM, etc. who are just as qualified to be admitted and to do the work once they get there. There may be less of them than in proportion at their high schools than at a selective prep school, but they are on par with them.</p>
<p>My D has SATs, gpa and class rank that put her in the bottom 25% at her college. She is not a URM, not an athlete and doesn't have any real hooks except for a lot of self confidence and determination. I think she was also just plain lucky - someone in admissions must have liked her essays. </p>
<p>Being in the bottom 25% at an elite school is not for everyone. My D has to work hard, has had some difficulties and modest grades. She is very happy and still confident in her ability to succeed. I still need to see her get through another semester before I will have a feeling of ease. Getting admitted to a super reach may not really fit everyone. There is a lot to be said for having more reasonable levels of challenge and stress.</p>
<p>In fairness, unless she goes to one of the top 10 universities, chances are she will not end up in a class with as many 'scary' bright students--where 50% or more of the class is a NM scholar. Those environments are tough--my sons have been there--but they are also rewarding in unexpected ways. A bright and talented peer group is one of life's pleasures, after all. Even though she has worked hard, your daughter has been very successful amongst those peers. It might pay to give consideration to the role her super smart peers have played. Just a thought.</p>
<p>Also, while this applies more to boys than to girls, parents need to remind seniors that they are not picking a school that will make them happy at 17. They are picking a school which will give them a thrill when they are 20 and 21. </p>
<p>Personally, absent a mental health issue, I think a parent should push schools which might be ahead of the comfort zone of a 17 year old--in anticipation of what is to come. At least put one or two challenging schools in the mix. Then she can make a decision in April.</p>
<p>Wow, the direction this thread is taking echoes some of the fears (we never stop worrying about them) I have for my 2. First, one of my D's main reasons for going to a highly competitive school was that she was tired of standing out, she wanted to be average. Her college has a number of amazing students, and while she is doing well and I'm very proud of her, she is much closer to the norm than she was in high school. This would drive me nuts, I am very internally competitive, and I thrived in the big fish in a small pond atmosphere, which kept my anxieties at bay.
Soozie mentions the 900 SAT, 2.9 GPA kid, and I think of my son. He is not as driven as his sis. I think he will do better than 900 on the SAT, but the 2.9 GPA is not out of the realms of possiblity, depending on how it is calculated, and I can imagine him being ill on SAT or ACT day, then balking and refusing a retake! But yet, he is much "smarter" than those numbers would predict, and his teachers often have good things to say about his classroom participation, knowledge and leadership - his numbers just don't show it. He's a kid that might well blossom in college, if he can be convinced to do the work, he's a kid that I hope someone will take a chance on. :(.</p>
<p>Finally for the OP, grades and SATs are a big no-no at my D's school, those things got put away at frosh orientation. I think that's true of most prestigious schools.</p>