<p>OP
Haven’t read the entire thread so I don’t know others brought up this possibility- Mid Sept is crunch time for GC’s. - It is when they get incredibly busy dealing with writing all of the LOR’s that need to be written, as well as compiling transcripts and all of the other parts of the application that she needs to send to colleges for ALL seniors . GC can go from being very friendly to parents of Jrs’ to stand-offish to parents of Sr’s. They may be under a tremendous amount of pressure from some “well connected” parents to write the most positive LOR’s possible. It is possible that your email caught her on a “bad day” but my take is that she also did not need to be reminded of your concerns re your S’s application. And, GC really DO want seniors to be in charge of the process and advocating for themselves at this point. That is why I think she sent the first part of her reply in all caps. JMHO</p>
<p>ilovetoquilt, do you even read other posters’ posts? If you did, you’d find the answers to most of your rhetorical questions. </p>
<p>The short answer: Some of us do not consider shuffling paper, including poring over transcripts to detect clerical errors, to be tasks our children must complete. And some of us feel that certain issues (e.g., ensuring that the school’s grading system is adequately explained in either the profile or the GC’s recommendation) fall within the parents’ jurisdiction, not the kids’.</p>
<p>You people have just saved me from myself. Thanks.</p>
<p>soozie, i’m reminded of the SNL bit that Amy Poehler and Seth Meyers do. Really?! Really, soozie?! </p>
<p>Do you think I’d be a reader/poster on these boards if i was never involved in my children’s education??!! Or that i thought no parent should be??!! Really?! </p>
<p>My examples were intended to provide a timeline to get to the point of “where does it end?”. Grade school, middle school, high school, … You dont like my examples. OK. Our approach worked for us. So I guess to some degree I’m just trying to get the message out that you dont HAVE to do all these things to ensure your children have a successful education. </p>
<p>poetgrls quote from mark twain resonated with me. I think many of us are so worried that if S/D doesn’t have everything fall just right for them, they’ll never grow up to be all they can be. Personally, I dont buy into that. That’s just me.</p>
<p>I totally disagree that a student shouldn’t study their own transcript to look for mistakes. That is their job. As well, turning in papers to a GC is not shuffling papers, that is doing what the GC wants. For a perent to turn in papers for their student is not our job. And the student should be the one doing the asking, at least at first, if the grading system will be explained.</p>
<p>TO say that a student doesnt need to nor should be expected to look over their own transcript is bizarre to me. If that offends, so be it. It doesn’t take hours to look over a transcript. Its take ten minutes. The student looks at each year’s classes and makes sure the grades are accurate. If not, then they themselves go to GC and say, there seems to be a mistake here, how do I get it fixed and what do you need from me. Why can’t a supposedly smary HS senior do that?</p>
<p>Beleive me, they remember their classes and their grades, and how many days they were abscent, and if they were discplined etc. </p>
<p>Shuffling college papers is their job. Walking papers in to the GC office or putting them in the basket outside the office is their job. Turning in requests for LOR is their job and looking at their own transcripts is their job. If there is some anomoly on the transcript, ie its includes something it shouldn’t ori is missing something, I thkni it fine for mom to find out how to get that information, but once that other record is in had, the student themselves should be the ones to shuffle that paper and turn it over.</p>
<p>Maybe I expected too much from my girls. TO turn in their own papers. </p>
<p>And if a parent is concerned that there might not be an adequate explanation in a recommendation with regards to the differences in a schools weighted and unweighted systems, for example, have kid ask FIRST. </p>
<p>DO you not trust your own child to ask questions, turn in papers? DO you think your Senior is incapable of looking at their own transcript to look for mistakes? Do you think that is too much to ask of them? </p>
<p>When they are in college it is ALL up to them. They will be totally responsible for their paperwork, their transcripts, their meetings with advisors, etc.</p>
<p>And this process isnt so time consuming that they can’t take 10-15 minutes to look over their own history. If their is a imistake and after you kid tries, and nothing happens, then go for it, help, but to not give your own kid the benefit of the doubt to get the job done, that is probably your issue,not theirs. And if you don’t trust your own kid enough to turn in their own paperwork or look over their own records, that to me is sad.</p>
<p>I am all for helping them, but that help is not doing.</p>
<p>My help would be making sure they have the office supplies they need. My help would be going to the post office if they are in school. My job would not be going over their transcript for them,nor would it be turning in paperwork to the GC. And yes, going to the post office is not the same as going to the GC with papers.</p>
<p>This is how I helped my kid when it got super busy during the appicaiton process. I took back a couple of their chores. I would surpise them by cleaning their bathroom or doing their laundry, or changing their linens. I would treat them to their faveorite dinner. We would go for brunch and a walk on sundays to check in. I didn’t talk about colleges except on that sunday. I gave them the benefit of the doubt to take care of business and to ask me if they needed a hand or needed advice on how to get something done.</p>
<p>ilovetoquilt - I’m glad you’re back in the discussion. </p>
<p>I think this issue of where to draw the line with assistance to our children is one of the most complex components of parenthood. It really does fundamentally depend on the child/young adult’s abilities and circumstances. So there is really no “right” answer. I have seen parents do ridiculous things --(as a poster a little farther back illustrated.) It boggles my mind how far some parents will go “helping” their children. It’s an intricate dance. </p>
<p>My son needs so much more organizational instruction than my daughter ever did.
My daughter was organized in first grade. My hs son just crams everything in his backpack! It’s an adventure just unzipping it – all these crumpled papers fall out. I’m still impressing upon him the need to organize work. He doesn’t write things down because he’ll “remember”… then of course he forgets. I do think he may not “get it” until he screws something up … and I intend to let him. Hopefully we will have this development accomplished before the college application process begins for him.</p>
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<p>I am absolutely stunned that a parent would let a child starting middle school attend medical appointments alone. I can’t get over that. It’s one thing to stuff or not stuff an envelope for a high school senior, but it’s another thing entirely to leave pre-teens responsible for their own medical care. I still go to the doctor with my seventeen-year old, never mind the 10-year old middle schooler! In fact, when my 19-year old college student was in and out of the hospital last year, I was right there on top of it. My middle one is applying to colleges now, and I’ve proofread everything for her. In fact, I’ve even printed out her address labels.</p>
<p>ilovetoquilt, while I agree that the student should be the one in senior year who makes requests to the GC as to what to include in the rec (my kids did this themselves) and to point out a mistake on their transcript (my kids did this themselves), there are certain things it may take an adult to get involved. For example, our school’s profile was so outdated with multiple glaring errors that were false as to the current practices at the school in terms of what was offered, grading system, ranking system, where students went to colleges, and many other mistakes. A student likely could not get that changed. I did bring that to the attention of the principal and she THANKED me. I showed her how the students’ transcripts from this HS would be detrimental to applicants when the school profile was so incorrect. There is a time and place for a parent to get involved and in other respects for a student to handle things him/herself. For that matter, my older D spent two years developing, advocating for, and writing a new school policy on the grading system and presented it to the principal, the faculty and eventually the School Board, and in front of public hearings, and eventually my D’s policy was adopted as the new school policy and in fact, her recs spoke to the fact that they had not seen a kid effect change at the high school like that before. </p>
<p>But there times when a parent needs to be involved. My kids did have to have accommodations in their schooling. Their path over the years was NOT the norm. I’m glad we were advocates and worked with the school (not against them) to meet the kids’ learning needs. I’ve had a kid enter K early…NOT the norm here. Parents had to be involved. I’ve had a kid graduate HS early…NOT the norm here. Parents had to be involved. I’ve had kids who accelerated a great deal and had independent studies and so on…NOT the norm here. Parents had to be involved. My kids advocated many many things on their own over the years. We did not replace that but certain things required an adult’s involvement to get these things to happen at the school. Parents and teachers are a team. The parents do have a role in certain aspects. For certain other things or at a certain age like senior year, the parental role is less directly involved. By college, the parent role should be entirely behind the scenes and not directly involved, in my opinion. </p>
<p>Goru…I can ONLY go by the examples you gave. I don’t know you at all and so that was all I was reacting to. In my view, it IS appropriate in third grade or middle school to be involved as a parent to advocate for acceleration or things of that nature. I’ve been an elem teacher myself. I welcomed parent involvement. Now, I’m a college counselor and work with students and parents every day. I welcome parent involvement BUT at this age, do NOT want them to take over and do things FOR their kid. I welcome their input. I also see their job as primarily a guide, support person, facilitator in this process. Just my view. </p>
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<p>Well, I don’t know what “things” you are referring to except the examples you gave. But I DO know that to ensure that my kids’ educational path was the appropriate one for them, there were things WE had to do. Thankfully we did them and the schools worked with us to accommodate their learning needs. I shudder to think what it would have been like had certain accommodations during K-12 not been implemented. Their education would NOT have been successful.</p>
<p>I’m with you ZM on the Dr.'s appointments. When my 18YO son blew out his knee, I was on the phone for three days, making sure that he got the best possible surgeon in the area, getting him to the head of the line for his MRI, getting him into surgery as fast as possible and then making sure that he got all of the PT he needed. </p>
<p>Every appointment he had, I was there - making sure that he was getting the care he needed (and I was paying for). Was I a PITA? Probably at times - but then again, why live in a community for 30+ years, building up relationships with people if you are not going to use those relationships for your kids benefits. </p>
<p>None of the doctors complained and in fact, more than one has called well after the fact to say how happy they are that he is back playing baseball again and that they were a part of his recovery.</p>
<p>“Their education would NOT have been successful.”</p>
<p>If you can say this with such confidence, then there is clearly nothing i can say that will sway your opinion one iota.</p>
<p>This is what I did… </p>
<p>When the kids were in elementary school and forgot something, I’d determine if the punishment was worse than the crime first. They forgot homework? Late points taken off fine. Forget their knee pads for the big volley ball game? Sitting on the bench and letting down an entire team was not fine. So … I billed them for my time. If I had to drop everything and take it to them? I charged them the time it took me and they had to “pay me back” by folding laundry, vacuum, weeding… whatever. I didn’t come up with this program until my two younger were there and so my first wasn’t very independent that way and I had learned the lesson. Let’s just say, they got to be very good at keeping track.</p>
<p>Through the college process I learned to very much trust that son’s GC was bringing up all the issues with him, but I admit to dashing off an email on occasion asking if son had turned in… etc etc. Her early reassurance that he was handling things very age appropriately led me to believe he was doing it on his own and she knew exactly the best way to do it all. But this was someone proven very skilled in the process. Without my guidance for the older one, however, she would have never known what to even ask! It was a different walk for sure. My point it this… while I checked in my son’s GC and left a lot up to them to work thru, I had gotten reassurances that it was safe for me to back away. On the other hand, with my D it may have LOOKED like she was doing a great deal on her own and we got there much later, but early on - if looked at with true clarity - it could be reasoned that I was more puppeteer than mere cheer leader. In some cases, the posts on this thread have made good use of similar semantics. Just because the words aren’t coming from your mouth, does not mean it wasn’t your words your kid used when meeting with the GC “with complete independence.” Your third degree over dinner that followed such a meeting guaranteed they would remember all there were supposed to ask and/or clarify. For all the steering and directing that you say you did, for all intents and purposes you were as much in the room as your kid a lot of the time. Just something to think about.</p>
<p>I know some kids who were completely on the ball of this junior year and some that looked around in February and were like, “what just happened?” Our younger D by virtue of being the youngest, is probably far more aware of the process than our oldest by a long shot. She benefits from our learning curve. For her, I will probably not have to do much of anything. I already trust the counselors explicitly and I know she is motivated to get the heck out of here as soon as possible. This only child thing is wearing thin.</p>
<p>And while I may not go into the drs office with my kids any longer, if we’re not talking a regular HS or camp physical, you can bet I was in there up until most recently. If they are sick, it is my responsibility as their guardian to understand their care. End of story. To do otherwise would have been irresponsible IMO. While I say this slightly tongue in cheek, Ilovetoquilt? Sometimes you write as if your children could have raised themselves and you merely nodded your head as they made every right decision in their lives. Be careful. For it has been my experience that when you say, “My child would never…”, they probably already have.</p>
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Right, and an oversight role in everything. Because kids, being kids, still need someone to look out for their best interests. Kids don’t always know what that means as a practical matter – why should they? they don’t yet have life experience. Would I do a paper or write an essay? Not a chance. But my daughter, who is a professional writer, did her personal statement and there was a glaring typo of the kind not caught by spellcheck. Who better than I?</p>
<p>This thread has kind of been hijacked from OPs dilemma –</p>
<p>I got the impression ilovetoquilt was stepping out during physicals and well-child checkups…not leaving her daughters medical care to them alone. I’ve done that - especially with my son. Our pediatrician has us fill out questionaires that ask personal questions. When my daugther was around 15 or so, I asked her if she wanted me to stay with or wait in the waiting room …she had me stay. My son tells me to wait outside. I’ll clear up any questions with doctors before we leave. </p>
<p>I don’t get why everything gets interpreted to such an extreme…</p>
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I agree with that, although I cut a little slack the first time. My little guy started middle school two weeks ago and is using a binder for the first time this year. He dropped it in school on Wednesday and it broke. In his haste not to be late to class, things got mushed up and a couple of things lost. Knowing how much trouble he’s having with the transition and that he’s never used a binder before, I sat and helped him put it back together. I explained what to do if it should ever happen again. One shot deal. Next time he has to be more careful.</p>
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Not an extreme. She said “start of middle school.” My kid just started middle school. He’s ten. I think that’s much too young to handle even well-child visits. We have a completely different parenting philosophy and were discussing it.</p>
<p>GORU, RESPONDING TO POST 70:</p>
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<p>I CAN say it with confidence, indeed. Had my younger D, for example, not entered K early, we would have had even more problems. Had neither child been allowed to accelerate in certain subjects or done certain in depth independent studies, or done long distance courses due to running out of them at the high school and so many other examples, their learning needs would have been drastically unmet. This would be no different than a LD kid who had no accommodations in their schooling. </p>
<p>By the way, the guidance counselor, teachers, and administrators all tried to help make these things happen but it took advocating when it came to our MS and HS (though our GC was totally an advocate on his end!) and we were very very lucky that at our elem school, THEY approached us about special accommodations as these were needed. Our MS is not too great. In fact, I am really glad we advocated when D1 hit the MS because we told them she was NOT unique and there would be others like her who would come after, including our second D. Some of the accommodations that either of my kids had at the MS and HS has BENEFITTED OTHER KIDS who came later. We broke ground for others who had these sorts of learning needs. Also, my older D created policy at her school that she did not benefit from as she knew it would not go into place until she graduated but has benefitted other students of her type at that HS. </p>
<p>I am so grateful that through my own kids’ advocating, as well as our own, that many of their learning needs could be met or at least met in a much more appropriate way that they needed over the years to ensure a successful experience. </p>
<p>I can understand why you, goru, may not understand my sentiments as you don’t know my kids or our school system. My kids did not travel a typical educational path. Our elementary school was more accommodating of individual needs and was terrific in this way. The MS required a parent advocate. Even our elem school principal and grade 5/6 teachers went into our 7/8 MS to advocate for our kids to get their learning needs met. It was not just us. Our GC pushed for many of these accommodations as well. </p>
<p>By the way some of my kids’ accommodations would not have been needed necessarily perhaps in another school that had gifted policies or programs or even offered certain levels of subjects in earlier grades (as I have read is normal at other schools on this forum).</p>
<p>"…but then again, why live in a community for 30+ years, building up relationships with people if you are not going to use those relationships for your kids benefits. "</p>
<p>Ughh, I’m glad I’m not one of those people waiting around to be used for YOUR kids benefits. When my son needed an MRI we waited in line. I didn’t think about developing a STRATEGY around the whole experience…yeeesh.</p>
<p>I was referring to their regular check ups, for heavens sakes. They were 13. I sat in the waiting room. Dr. checked them out, gave them their shots, weighed them, checked the spine all the basics. And they did just fine. If my kid was injured, of course I would have been in the room. </p>
<p>I felt it was important to give my Ds privacy when it came to seeing their doctors for the medical checkups, especially when they started puberty. At the end of the appontments, when they were 13, the doctor would ask me in, and ask if I had any questions and would share what shots were given, etc. And before the appointment, askled me if there was anything i wanted to be sure doctor discussed. Should I have sat in the examination room with a 15 year old girl. I don’t think so. </p>
<p>If my Ds arm was broken I of course would be there… My D had a full body rash do to an allergic reaction to medication. I was there, I wasn’t in exam room, of course not, but I was there. Did my D need me to be their for annuals, of course not. I was their chauffer at that point and their bank. </p>
<p>But for their annual exams, yes, it was their process once puberty hit. ANd you know what, the doctor told me, while my D was dressing that she thought it was great I was able to let my teen daughter handle a simple appointment alone. I was there, in the waiting room, but I was not in the examination room unless my D wanted me there. </p>
<p>WHen my kid had braces in second grade, I would go to dentist, drop her off, run and errand pick her up. She did just fine, in fact that is what many parents did.</p>
<p>WHen my D went in for her physical for college, I handed her the forms, the insurance card and told me to call if their were any issues or questions. I went to the bookstore next store. </p>
<p>I am their when they need me, but I give them the opportunites to take care of themselves. My D in NYC got shingles. It was incredably painful. I sent her vitamins, gave her food adivce, bought her creams, etc. So I am not one for sayinjg, you are on your own in all ways, far from it; However, I am one who wants my kids to learn to take care of themselves as much as possible, because I wlll not always be able to be there. I won’t always be able to call the FA office.</p>
<p>When my D was in sixth grade, I asked her if she needed me in the room with her and the doctor. She said no. I told her I was in the waiting room. She did just fine.</p>
<p>^^ I fully agree. Totally appropriate. But it’s what I would do, so maybe it’s the choir singing the same song that resonates. :)</p>
<p>I agree that middle school is too young to leave the kid alone to discuss questions with doctor. iltq - didn’t say she was “leaving pre-teens responsible for their own medical care” whiich is a bit of an extreme intrepretation…</p>
<p>I thought the thread was about how much involvement with hs college guidance counselors -</p>