I think our GC is mad at me!!

<p>I’m fascinated by where people draw the line on parental involvement. Like ilovetoquilt, I ended up leaving a discussion last week on a similar thread (she’s too harsh, I was too smug). </p>

<p>Over the years, I watched in elementary school as parents influenced which 3rd grade teacher their child was assigned. I watched fathers of talented athletes band together to stack youth sports teams. I’ve watched middle school parents push to have their kids start languages or advanced math as early as possible. For the past couple of years, I’ve watched involvement in the college application process. </p>

<p>Like ilovetoquilt, we strove to develop independence. All the while, we kept telling ourselves, “it will all work out”. Fortunately, for us, it did. </p>

<p>My biggest question to those who go farther than we did is “Where does it end?”. We can always “do more”. Will you be contacting college professors, advisors? Human resource departments when they apply for jobs? Their bosses after they get the job?</p>

<p>I developed a very close relationship with D1’s counselor through the college process. We mutually liked and respected each other. I heard a lot of horror stories from her about some parents (no specific names), and I could see how she could be upset about some parents’ tactic. </p>

<p>When I want someone to do something for me, I try to make it appear as if it’s their idea, not me trying to tell them what to do. In this case, I would have raised it as a concern of mine that the transcript may not be a good representation of the kind of work my kid has done in high school. I would then ask the counselor for her help on what could be done. If the counselor is any good, she would say "Not to worry, I normally include that in my writeup, or “Thank-you for reminding me of that, let me think about what we could do.” As she is the professional, it is better for her to come up with the solution rather than for us (experts because of number of years on CC) to tell her how to do her job.</p>

<p>I do that when I have problem with my travel reservations or any other consumer issues. I would call the customer service up to ask them for their help, instead of telling them what I want. People are more inclined to help when you respect their expertise. Their feather tends to get ruffled when they feel you are telling them how to do their jobs.</p>

<p>I think it’s a good step for OP to write a follow-up email. I wouldn’t be surprised if the GC already felt bad as soon as she sent out the email, and is probably happy OP took the high road.</p>

<p>Re: post #41 - Like Goru, I am also fascinated by where people “draw the line” on parental involvement. I encouraged our daughters to travel abroad, but had no involvement in choosing what countries they visited. But I insisted that they always carry a copy of their itinerary. Why? Because we have an extended family member who chronically misses flights because “I was sure the flight was at 3:25.” I guess a lot of it involves parental experience … that old “once burned, twice shy” thing.</p>

<p>Oldfort: I thought we had a ‘close’ relationship and felt comfortable writing her. I do appreciate your 2nd paragraph, that is helpful in general. Professionally, I’m ‘the solver’ and spend all day solving problems and that likely carries over into non-professional areas. </p>

<p>NewHope: It is kid and experience specific. DD is very different and already runs everything herself in elementary school. I"m good with that.</p>

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<p>Sorry, I think there is a world of difference in the level such applications are held to. For a second tier private with a high acceptance rate, the GC reference is a formality. For more selective schools, they have every ability to scrutinize every aspect of the app and look for any chance to ding the student’s admittance. </p>

<p>“Joey is a hardworking, diligent student who is interested in history” may be fine for a lower private, or numbers-driven public. It is not fine for a more selective school. And not all GC’s will know that.</p>

<p>I tend to agree that OP crossed a line, but really not by much and I think the apologetic followup will be fine. I loved Pizzagirl’s letter. I did the same thing once - MIT has a wonderful letter of advice for writing letter’s of recommendation and I really wanted the teachers to see it. I asked my son to put it in the packet of stuff he gave his teachers. One teacher got a bit snippy about it.</p>

<p>The thing is at our school, the GC has made it clear she wants some interaction with us parents. They ask us to meet with them in the spring of junior year to discuss colleges. In the parent brag sheet in the “anything else I should know”, I put my explanations for my son’s lower grades in Latin. Will it appear in the GC letter? Who knows, but I was lucky that our school had a form for me to put my concerns out there.</p>

<p>OP–YOu’ve probably gotten about as much advice as you can stand, though it’s been good advice, really. I don’t know if you have financial considerations, but if you don’t, you might consider getting your son a “coach.” I hear your concern about his ability to PR himself and his ability to make things happen for himself, and this is an area a coach could help him address without your personal involvement.</p>

<p>H has always been actually brilliant, mathematically and scientifically, as well, but an executive coach about ten years ago helped him to become politically saavy, as well. He says he wishes he’d had access to that when he was 18 or 19. Just thought I’d pass that along. Kids who are good at school can frequently learn how to do a lot of this stuff when it is presented as a systematic kind of thing, as opposed to somethng you “just pick up.” Just a thought.</p>

<p>Also, please don’t worry so much! As Mark Twain said, “I’ve lived through hundreds of tragedies, and a couple of them actually happened.” Good luck to you. :)</p>

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<p>I agree with oldfort that it’s all in the approach. The key to resolving issues is to assume the role of a team member working for the common good of the child and the school, not an adversary or a critic. (And OP, I don’t think you acted in an adversarial way.) Like the OP, had I been concerned that the system of weighting/non-weighting grades was not adequately explained, I would have approached the administration myself to explore a solution. </p>

<p>I believe that the extent to which a parent needs to be involved depends on the quality of the college counseling in the high school. College admissions is a huge paper chase. It’s wonderful if your school has an experienced and able college counselor. Unfortunately, they’re not all experienced and able. If a GC is hopelessly overworked and/or unfamiliar with the application process at all but a handful of state schools, or if the GC is just plain incompetent, someone has to be making sure things happen, and happen on time. </p>

<p>I wanted to give my very independent, very busy kid the freedom to focus on his school work, his ECs, the substance of his applications, and taking a breath for air now and then. So I acted as his chief administrative assistant, and I’d do it again. I did not feel that by chasing down the paper work, I was depriving him of a character-building experience or fostering his dependence on me.</p>

<p>D pretty much navigated the guidance counselor communications on our end. I wouldn’t have hesitated to call her, though, if I was concerned that the weighting system wasn’t adequately explained. Around 37% of the school’s graduating class goes on to any form of higher education and I think it’s safe to say that there are very few applications to the very selective schools. Like wjb, I acted as D’s administrative assistant- preparing the packets to go to guidance, reviewing letters, notes and emails that D sent to guidance, reminding D of deadlines to follow up on- because I could. I had the time and I wanted to help her. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. </p>

<p>Just a side note. I think it’s unfortunate when people feel that they need to leave threads. Just because this is a message board and most of us don’t know each other and probably never will doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to be polite and respectful to each other. And I’m not singling anyone out here. But we’re all trying to help each other, I think, and I’d like this to continue to be the welcoming community it has been for so long.</p>

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<p>And what, may I ask, is wrong with this? There are a handful of kids who need advanced math earlier than others. It’s the parents’ role to advocate for them. </p>

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<p>It doesn’t “all work out”, at least not optimally, for kids who have exhausted the conventional math curriculum ahead of schedule and who are so bored in math class their eyes cross. Working with the school to provide an appropriate alternative neither crosses a line with the school administration nor thwarts the kid’s independence.</p>

<p>One size doesn’t fit all.</p>

<p>I agree completely with pizzagirl. I have seen 2 kids through the process. S1 to top 20 schools; S2 to in-state publics, a cc, and a trade school ap. There is an incredible difference in the aps. Turning on the computer took more effort than completing S2’s aps. </p>

<p>I concur that the gc’s statement is much more important to the highly selective colleges. Our gc was completely clueless about these. “Profiles are a waste of time. We don’t have them. I’m not writing one.” That was one of many instances. Very, very
few of our kids go out-of-state or even apply to selective schools.</p>

<p>I don’t have a good answer about how to approach the issues up thread, but I do know, at least with our gc, they definitely needed addressed.</p>

<p>I guess one of things that’s wrong with pushing to get special treatment for your child is that it often comes at the expense of one or more other children. If your school has 100 3rd graders, they can’t all get the best teacher. So someone is pushed out when one parent exerts influence. </p>

<p>In the middle school case, it wasn’t a curriculum thing. The advanced math program existed. I know of children who did not originally get assigned due to scores, grades, assessment criteria. Their parents advocated to the point that a special case was made. These are not unlimited resources, and other children are affected by that advocacy. There may be direct consequences, other children may have been bumped out of the program. There may be indirect consequences, maybe the teacher needs to spend more time with the marginal student(s) at the expense of others. Maybe in some cases that’s still appropriate. No way to know for sure.</p>

<p>Its all where you draw the line. Everyone draws it in a different place. </p>

<p>Again, where/when does it end?</p>

<p>I definitely agree with sryrstress. DS is at Large public HS. GC vary radically in experience and knowledge but all well intentioned. The first week of school the brought in all the seniors and parents and emphasized letting the kid run the show. So I backed off completely…then after 1 month I finally saw his official transcript with grades from advanced HS classes From one middle school but not from the other (foreign from a year abroad) I pointed out that he was taking a serious hit on his GPA. I emailed GC lots of apologies for getting involved but explained my concern; Her response…THANK YOU! she didn’t understand the foreign grades and we worked with school admin to transfer them. So when I took the paperwork in I asked her…how involved do you want me in this and she (bless her!) said…each kid is different, types of schools can be more or less demanding in paperwork, PLEASE help him stay organized and on time if he isn’t managing on his own. We all want them to succeed and there is no one rule for all of the students. We expect parents to help if the kid wants/needs it. That pep talk at the beginning of the year is done so some kids can use it to tell their parents to back off!
What a relief to discover I was not an evil helicopter mom!</p>

<p>If the OP’s approach to the GC was as she described she was not out of line. The parent was “concerned” about a couple of potential weak points in the student’s application and asked the GC to address those “as she felt appropriate.” She asked the GC to address the school’s ranking policy and how it might have adversely effected her son “IF she agreed.”</p>

<p>The GC had no right or reason to fly off the handle as she did. Speaking as a public school board member I am certain our board and superintendent would have had a major problem with a GC in our district who reacted to a parent’s inquiry this way. It is continually stressed on the board level and during “Superintendent’s [training] Days” that the education and preparation of a child for adulthood is a shared responsibility in which students, parents, teachers and support staff are partners. In this case I think, for whatever reason – insecurity, a bad day, poor people skills – the GC lost sight of that.</p>

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<p>Very nice! I’m going to conduct ALL the correspondence with the GC in Latin.</p>

<p>^LOL. If only I could!</p>

<p>My son’s school didn’t want to move him ahead in math. I knew he was years ahead of any other kid in his elementary school, but he hadn’t gotten top scores on the 5th grade state assessments. I finally had to ask them to give him the final exam of the grade I wanted him to skip. My confidence in his ablilities was justified when as a 6th grader he got the second highest score in the school on the AMC-8 and never got a grade less than a 98 in math. Sometimes parents have to push because they know better.</p>

<p>wjb, your response to goru’s post 41 are my sentiments exactly. </p>

<p>Goru…the level of parental involvement in third grade or in middle school should not be at the same level it is at in senior year of HS or in college. The way I interpret your post is that parents should not be involved at the school at any age! </p>

<p>What really caught my eye was your example of middle school parents who were involved in their kids accelerating in math and foreign language! You’d hate us then! LOL We were involved in school meetings with teachers, principals and the GC at that age to devise some accommodations for our girls’ learning needs. We did not have tracked classes in middle school, nor any gifted programs. Our girls ended up doing independent study for Algebra in 7th and Geometry in 8th under the supervision of a teacher. NOBODY here can take those courses at those grade levels. My kids needed to. This was their level. As well, my kids went into the adjoining HS and/or had independent studies to accelerate in French (one did French 2 at the high school), in English (one took two courses with seniors in 8th grade), long distance college level writing course, independent study history for part of the year under the supervision of the HS History Dept. Chair, and other accommodations to meet their learning needs. Even someone from the State Dept. of Education once sat in on a meeting about D2 in seventh grade and developing accommodations, as well as her elementary school principal who sat in who was concerned that D’s learning needs were not being met at our middle school. Even so, both Ds were very much involved in these meetings. While they did articulate and advocate for themselves, they needed a parent at that age to advocate for major accommodations for their learning plans that were atypical at our school. I don’t see that as parents stepping over a line. That IS the parents’ job at that age. </p>

<p>At the same time, I believe that in the later years of HS, there ought to be a transition where the student has most of the contact with school and the parent guides behind the scenes. However, I can think of a few situations during HS, where, as parents, we did go in to meet with a teacher or principal. Our kids had a wonderful GC who also advocated for them at the school. He would get in touch with us and we’d all be a team to solve issues that arose. I have a kid who wanted to graduate HS early (HER own idea) and yes, we had to be involved some with that, even though she initiated it. I’m also a former teacher and believe there is a place for parental involvement in K-12 education! We were quite involved. This didn’t mean taking over for our kids but it did mean being advocates and support people as adults, when they were younger. </p>

<p>I must admit that your post about parents who would get involved in middle school with regard to acceleration for their child amazes me. At that age, it is not either/or when it comes to the child being an advocate or the parents being the advocate. It is a team at that age. </p>

<p>I happen to have a copy of my child’s guidance counselor report to colleges (she just graduated college and so this was written five years ago) and in fact, the very first paragraph refers to this meeting I mentioned above that took place when she entered seventh grade at our MS/HS (same GC from 7th grade and up). </p>

<p>He wrote in that paragraph:</p>

<p>“My first true introduction to X was when she was a seventh grade student at X MS. As her guidance counselor, I was invited to a meeting to brainstorm academic options and opportunities. X was considered a gifted student and we were looking for ways to challenge and excite her as well as create a foundation that would be supportive and encouraging over the years. I left that meeting in awe of this young girl. She was articulate, concise, creative, and eager. I left the meeting thinking that she, at that age, was the most intelligent person in that meeting. Her visions and goals were clear. Her demeanor was professional, yet it was easy to see the seventh grader in her. She was aware that there would be roadblocks ahead but she was unafraid and comfortable with the thought of being a part of a creative academic process.”</p>

<p>Now, as parents, we did initiate a call for that meeting (our D was very much wanting it herself). We were part of that meeting to brainstorm accommodations for this child at the middle school. Did that mean our kid at age 12 (she may have been been 11 because she entered K one year early in fact), had nothing to do with advocating? If you knew this kid, she was a MAJOR advocate for her own learning. But she needed at an adult at that age to also advocate for things to be done at the school that had never been done (though her older sister had some accommodations that paved the way for her), though D2 had some other and additional ones. The GC even mentions that this 11/12 year old was the one advocating for herself with clear goals. </p>

<p>Now, skip ahead to senior year (well, for D2, her junior year was senior year)…she wrote each rec writer and GC a detailed letter about herself to help them write her recs. If there was something she hoped that they would speak to (for example, the fact that she was an early graduate and her readiness for college at age 16), she asked them to in the letter. Our role in that endeavor was to proofread her letter and guide her but she was the one to prepare it and meet with the rec writers and GC. And like someone else mentioned here, the GC had a couple meetings with parents to talk about anything to do with the college process. </p>

<p>My girls are VERY independent types (one even started college at 16 in Manhattan) and one has lived abroad and traveled abroad alone numerous times. But as they neared college and particularly IN college, we still advise and guide on some things but don’t do it FOR THEM. </p>

<p>We had NO contact with their colleges all four years. The girls handled everything on their own. We may have guided on an issue if they consulted us but did not handle it for them. Even when D1 applied to grad school or professional summer jobs, she has shown me her essays, resumes, and cover letters and asked for input. We don’t write these documents or call anyone for them but are there to support young independent women behind the scenes. </p>

<p>Anyway, there is a role for parents in K-12 education. The fact that you think it is pushy for a parent to advocate in elementary or middle school for their child’s learning needs goes against what I believe in both as a parent, a former teacher, and now a counselor myself. </p>

<p>For the OP, I don’t think what she did was so bad at all. I just happen to think that by senior year, a parent might want to guide the student how to go about such a matter on his own and go over his written statement or whatever but not do all the contact FOR the student at that age, depending on the matter at hand. There are some times, however, even in high school, where we had to talk to a teacher, GC, or principal. Parents are part of the TEAM that educates a child in the K-12 years. There is a place for parent involvement during those years in my view. At the same time, as a student nears the college years, the parental role needs to dial back more where the guidance is more of a facilitator and support person who doesn’t take over. By college, the student needs to be independent and have the contact with school personnel themselves. That is my view.</p>

<p>Had to jump back in. Sorry.</p>

<p>For those who went to GC with concerns re transcripts, grades, etc., did your child go in first? Did they ask themselves about the issues? Did they understand all the issues? Did they uinderstand their own transcripts?</p>

<p>If not, why not? </p>

<p>I can see approaching the GC after the student has done so and not gotten whatever it was fixed.</p>

<p>And if new papers needed to be brought in to fix a discripentcy, why didn’t at that point mom hand over papers and say, you need to bring these into your GC. They are important. And then explain to the student what I had seen was wrong and what THEY needed to talk to GC about.</p>

<p>If a student doesn’t see there is something wrong with the transcript and parent does, shouldn’t the student take a stab at getting it addressed? </p>

<p>I am all for advocating, and in some cases, ie math class in middle school is warranted. But that is apples and oranges when it comes to a HS student dealing with their own paperwork with GC. In just a few months they will have no choice but to take care of their own paperwork. We are out of the the loop. I don’t even know my freshman daughter’s advisors name, much less how to contact him.</p>

<p>I saw my job during the appication process as one of support, shoulder to cry on, advisor, teaching them how to get organized, teaching them how to get things done, helping them make lists of questions to ask, etc. What to do if they couldn’t get something resolved in a timely fashion.</p>

<p>My Ds GC weren’t perfect. Their school wasn’t perfect. However, by getting through the process basically on their own, will my H and I in the background, supporting, etc., they grew. They got skills and had to learn to approach things they wuold have no choice but to do in college.</p>

<p>I don’t think its wrong in all cases for parents to approach GC or be their childs advocate, but I think for seniors in HS, whatever the age or dispostion, we have to let them go first, let them ask first, let them try and fix it first, and if they don’t understand the issue, they better get up to speed mighty quick.</p>

<p>For many schools there are interviews, some matter, some don’t, but this is the time to do some role playing, etc.</p>

<p>One thing that I did that helped my Ds, when they were freshman, and I needed to let them navigate the process as much as possible in HS, was to ask them questions their GC may ask, to help them come up with a list of questions they were to ask. I told them writing them down was not a bad thing to do and to even pull out the list whe with GC.</p>

<p>Whenver my kids had issues in school, and they did, bad teachers, bullies, etc, I stressed the idea that they needed to try and deal with it first. And if and when their efforts failed, then I would gladly step in, but they had to give it at least a shot.</p>

<p>Our jobs are not to do for our kids, but to teach them to do, and as seniors in HS, that is our most important job, and if that means handing our kid the papers to turn in, than that is what we do. ANd if they don’t understnad the papers, or the issue, then we explain to them, bring them into the process and let them explain to GC. If the issue it hard to explain, then write something up, and let student bring in the explanation, along with supporting documents.</p>

<p>That is how we are their advocates, by teaching them to be their own advocates as often possible.</p>

<p>On a lighter note and to answer an earlier question posed by the OP, according to Wikipedia “Hanlon’s Razor” is “Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.” Personally, I liked “Heinlein’s Razor” which is “Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but don’t rule out malice.”</p>

<p>I haven’t gone into a doctors appointment with my daughters in who knows how long. Ever since they started middle school, this has been their deal. I talked to them about what to ask, not to be shy or embarrased, and be honest with their doctor. Once the doctor asked me if I had any questions, and I said, no so long as she and my D felt comfortable and were able to talk about sex, staying healthy, etc, than this was their relationship. I wasn;t abdicating my job,far from it, I was however being realistic that this was their body and I will very soon have no clue what they are doing sometimes and they needed to have the confidence and experience early to trust themselve and to trust that docotr relationship.</p>

<p>All through HS, my Ds went to their GC for all kinds of issues, some I knew about, some I didn’t, as it should be. In the college process, I stepped way back, but no so far I couldn’t catch them</p>