<p>By the way, ihs76, I don’t necessarily disagree with what you’ve been doing, but I, too, am a parent in a system that sends a huge number of kids to colleges but being in Michigan the vast, vast majority go to Michigan or Michigan State. Our GCs know very little outside our state. In fact my senior son’s GC is only part-time, the rest of the time teachers several other classes. I’m very concerned about how my son’s “stuff” will be handled. Our profile is OK, but weak and geared toward UofM, no weighted GPAs (because Michigan doesn’t weight GPAs) and ranking is straight GPA until senior spring when they “weight them up” to “fix the ranking.”…but what goes to the college in the fall is unranked. It’s a problem and I’m not sure what’s going to happen. My senior son has an appointment next week and I’m hoping he can get across to his GC what needs to happen. So, no, I don’t disagree with you, but speculated that the GC was somewhat caught off guard and got testy. When S1 took the SAT his GC (who is still there) called me and said basically why the heck was he taking that test which in his opinion was unecessary. I politely told him that schools he was applying to required it, something he did not know. Back 4 years ago, yes, there were still schools that required the SAT. Our GCs had never heard of the SAT IIs. But, I have GOT to assume that once these colleges started soliciting all over the country for students they must know about all the wild variations in how schools operate outside of othe NE and be able to somehow get to the bottom. Quite frankly an unweighted GPA, an ACT score and a couple AP scores should be able to calibrate the student against the rest of the country. Fortunately my kids GPAs, ACTs and AP scores all kind of “match”. I’d have more fear if my kids have high this and low this or something lopsided. In fact I saw one of my sons recommendations. It was basically one sentence, “nice, kid, pleasure to have in class, participates and has occasional flashes of brilliance.” No kidding, that was it. So any colleges out there that take kids with occasional flashes of brilliance???</p>
<p>^It’s better than “Hardworking”!</p>
<p>DS’s teacher told him that he would put ‘hardworking’ in his LOR. I think he thought it would be a compliment and help him. I’m not saying nothin. Not sure where that comes from, because I’ve never seen DS do anything more than assigned work although he did get A’s on everything.</p>
<p>Momof3: makes you wonder why they agree to write LOR if that’s all they’re going to say. I suppose that’s all thats needed at lots of places.</p>
<p>ihs, did the GC respond to your note?</p>
<p>don’t know yet. Can’t access my e-mail where I am. I think she’s out of the office today (coaches a varsity team) so don’t know when she’ll check her e-mail. But I will be sure to update you all when I hear back. At this point, I’m more curious than concerned, as ‘I am moving on.’</p>
<p>And THIS is why I think it’s all so pointless for colleges to require a GC to provide a letter of recommendation. It seems about as pointless as stopping a random stranger on the street and asking them to write a LOR. </p>
<p>They HAVE to know this at the more selective colleges, though. They KNOW that the better private schools will have GC’s that they personally know who can add depth and nuance, and that at many public schools, the GC (who is a complete stranger to them) doesn’t know anything about the world of selective colleges and has a caseload of a few hundred kids, most of whom are going to a school where it’s a function of filling out paperwork.</p>
<p>So why do colleges bother and persist in this charade? Is hmom around? Anyone? I truly don’t get it.</p>
<p>If I were cynical, I would supect the LORs are some kind of cover for the colleges. It’s the one piece that the applicant knows nothing about.</p>
<p>Pizza, I agree, my sons had never been to the guidance office until “summoned” senior fall to have the GC make sure they had all their required classes completed or on schedule to complete and to be reminded to get their college apps in by October (again because Michigan is rolling admission so therefore they require all seniors to have their apps done by October.) I cannot for the life of me imagine what the GC will say about my son. Son’s GC has not yet summoned S2 or talked to him once in the 4 years he’s been at the school. I wish I were a fly on the wall. Hmmmm wonder if I shoud send GC an e-mail asking what will be written, tee hee. I could imagine a one-liner on the order of “I hear through the grapevine that S2 is well liked by his teachers, was not one of the better varsity golfers, is rarely sick or tardy and never gets into trouble.”</p>
<p>The MIT instructions that someone mentioned earlier talks about these ‘don’t know the kid’ letters</p>
<p>[MIT</a> Admissions | Info For Schools & Counselors: Writing Evaluations](<a href=“http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/schools/writing_evaluations/index.shtml]MIT”>http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/schools/writing_evaluations/index.shtml)</p>
<p>They understand and basically ignore them.</p>
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<p>I agree with this hugely. In fact, I regularly apologize to our oldest for not knowing nearly what I grew to know. I have 3 children and between them and amongst them, we’ve attended public, private and parochial schools. They all attended Parochial schools at one point, but only the oldest went to public school. If I had been a wiser parent back then, I would have done things much differently and I readily admit that THEIR incompetence in so many areas had me doing more for that kid than either of my other two combined. Would she had been more difficult regardless? Perhaps, but the thing is, everyone does the best they can with what they’ve got in front of them at the time. We cannot judge each other so harshly all the time, but I think we all agree that there is a tethering that needs to stretch throughout their lives… we all need to get there eventually. It’s just easier with some kids over others. I often feel a little bit of goldilocks syndrome… in all things there is usually one that is too hot, one that is too cold and one that is just right. And no one is “just right” in all things. Works out pretty good that way, and keeps me on my toes. :)</p>
<p>The rec writer who wrote one sentence really is a disgrace. They should not have agreed to do it if that was what was done. That said, colleges do know that it is not the student’s fault if the rec writers write basically ineffective recs. It is not taken against the student. Can’t HELP the student, but will not hurt. </p>
<p>I will say that our GC knew both our kids starting in seventh grade…MS and HS were at the same location. He knew them very well and unlike some are saying here, it wasn’t like they only met up with him once. They had a relationship with him through the years. I have seen the report he wrote for both my kids. NEVER asked to see it (would not dream of it) but he wrote a draft and gave it to each kid and asked them to look it over and see if there was anything they felt was needed or missing. So, we got a copy of it (didn’t suggest any changes though). I honestly felt like crying when I read what he had to say as it was very specific. </p>
<p>I realize many kids don’t know their GC well (ours has a lot of students but my kids just were always in contact and saw him as an advocate who really cared about their education…favorite person in the school). </p>
<p>BUT…
I will say this as both a parent and as someone who advises applicants…I think some here are saying that their GC or rec writers don’t know their kid or will just say “hardworking.” And I DO think the student CAN do something about that. Sounds like people are just asking for recs and that’s that. All my students and my own kids wrote detailed cover letters that were individualized to each of their rec writers and GC. I have had to make some kids revise these many times to give more specifics and examples. They shared many things in these letters. They talked about where they are applying and what they want to go into in college. They discussed highlights of their time in that class (or for the GC, highlights of their high school years), things they were proud of, things they accomplished, things that engaged them, and so on, related very specifically to what they did with that particular rec writer (so this differed from cover letter to cover letter depending on who they were asking). They gave anecdotes and examples. They discussed their own personal attributes that they are hoping to get across to colleges and asked if the rec writer could speak to those. They gave a lot of information about themselves (not merely FACTS!!!) to help the rec writer write an effective rec. They gave the rec writer plenty to talk about and the rec writer could use or not whatever he/she wished. They also enclosed an annotated activity/award resume. There would be no excuse for a rec writer who got all this stuff from the student to not write something effective. As a rec writer myself, I would appreciate receiving all of that. I can tell you that a more effective recommendation would be written if all that stuff was shared with the rec writer. The student needs to write what sorts of things he/she wants the rec writer to talk about…specific things…related to that class…or overall to HS if for the GC. I have occasionally had a kid tell me, “I don’t need to do that as my rec writer knows me already.” They don’t get how important very good recs can be and that even if the rec writer knows them well (my kids teachers and GC knew them very well), it really helps to provide many specifics that you hope they will talk about. It also helps to share one’s own points about themself that they are hoping to demonstrate on their own part of the application so that the recs correlate with it. </p>
<p>Some GCs or teachers might still write an ineffective rec if given all this stuff I have kids prepare. But the chances are improved that they will get some effective recs with specifics, if they provide the rec writer with things about themself or in that class that they hope will be on their rec. </p>
<p>When my kid applied to grad school, she did this once again, writing a detailed cover letter to each professor who wrote on her behalf even though the professor knew her very very well. One she did an independent study with. Another she not only took his course, but she was a TA for him another year. STILL, she gave each rec writer so much about herself in her letter, they could not help but use some of it, if they were dedicated at all about writing a good letter. I am sure every rec writer they ever had was happy to receive these packets to assist them. I make sure every student of mine does this and I have had some students who have had to write three or four drafts of their letters TO their rec writers just to improve them with more specifics. </p>
<p>If your kids are not doing this…think about it…it may be one reason their recs may not be effective or you say their GC doesn’t know them well. Your kid needs to make them know them well. Nobody is gonna care more about your college admissions process than you (meaning the student). Do what you can to ensure each piece is a best effort…whatever is in your power.</p>
<p>I’m jumping into this thread late, so forgive me if I missed a few posts when looking through. Here are my thoughts…</p>
<p>Each school and each child are different. Some schools (like one of my son’s) have 800 kids in a class, and other schools (like my other son’s) are 100 kids in a class. The GCs might have different responsibilities and relationships with the parents and kids in each of the schools, so there is not only one appropriate way to interact with the GC.</p>
<p>And certainly each child is different. Some kids are ready to take the world by storm at a young age, and some are ready to take the world by storm at a later age. Developmentally, kids are not ready for the same thing at the same time.</p>
<p>I read some of these posts, and they baffle me. To say a bright teen who is socially shy or inept is not worthy of an appropriate college education because they haven’t shown themselves to be able to advocate for themselves with a high school guidance counselor is just silly. Sometimes those kids are the ones who grow the most in college and go on to change the world.</p>
<p>I agree with many of the threads, but people who are arrogantly expressing that their independent, brilliant children are the only ones who will able to navigate college life (without even knowing all the details of the other children people are discussing)… well, it’s a bit off-putting. I have seen so many situations with so many different children with different gifts and different teachers and different parents and different guidance counselors that it’s not possible to generalize. And for myself… I have both types of children and neither one is more suited to higher learning than the other.</p>
<p>^^^^^</p>
<p>Currently at two posts? I think you need to post here more often (or do you subscribe to the “less is more” outlook?).</p>
<p>To paraphrase Lao-tzu: She who knows does not post; she who posts does not know.</p>
<p>“she who posts does not know.”
ya know, some of us “old timers” with thousands of posts written over many years, whose kids have been in college for quite some time, might just resent that remark . I do hope that was said in jest. We are still posting, not because we get all puffed up reading our words on the internet, but because we learned so much from other “old time” posters who continued to post and were willing to share their experience and knowledge, when we were ignorant about what was involved when our children were hoping to apply to top colleges, that we still, 4 years later or more, want to come here and help others as we were helped- sort of a version of “pay it forward”. So if you want to ignore posters with years of experience and thousands of posts under their belt, like soosviet, and other veterans who have contributed to this thread, be my guest. Just don’t thumb your nose at us please. next time when you ask a question you may be met with silence…</p>
<p>^^Having deeply studied the body of work of mantori.suzuki, I think I can definitively say that comment is largely in jest. Else we’ll be left with dads only:).</p>
<p>MacTessa: Thank you for saying what I have been nebulously feeling. As a parent of two vastly different children, it’s crystal clear to me that one size does not fit all.</p>
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<p>At what point in time do you think that your kids should start to learn these skills? Would you review their college transcripts along the way as well? Are you going to monitor their bank accounts as they go through college to make sure they don’t ever incur overdraft charges? I don’t know from your post whether you feel it is appropriate for your children to hold down a paying job when they are busy with academics and EC’s… but if they ever do, every April 15th IRS wants a 1040 – whose job is it to make sure that the W2’s are collected and the 1040EZ is submitted on time? (My kids both ended up with income from internship grants and stipends that was reported on 1099’s… no more “EZ” returns, they suddenly had become “self employed”, complete with the need to fill out a Schedule C and SE.)</p>
<p>There are kids who go off to college not knowing how to wash their own underwear, make a bed, or fry an egg. I certainly don’t think that I would have been a bad mother if I had done my kids’ laundry during their high school years or prepared all their meals – but the easiest way for me to teach those skills was to shift some of the responsibility during their teen years. To me, “shuffling paperwork” is equates with doing laundry. Not fun, not the best use of our time – but sooner or later a young adult is going to need to know that stuff.</p>
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<p>They HAVE to know this at the more selective colleges, though. They KNOW that the better private schools will have GC’s that they personally know who can add depth and nuance, and that at many public schools, the GC (who is a complete stranger to them) doesn’t know anything about the world of selective colleges and has a caseload of a few hundred kids, most of whom are going to a school where it’s a function of filling out paperwork.
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<p>I really think that at the most selective, elite colleges, the ad coms are looking for the type of student who really stands out from the crowd. My kids went to public schools, with g.c.'s who had large caseloads… but it seemed that from fairly early in freshman year onward, everyone in the school administration from the principal on down knew their names. (Not necessarily for positive reasons). The kids were very different, but both tended to make their presence obvious. </p>
<p>I was a shy, introverted kid so I certainly understand that those kids are very deserving as well – but in high stakes admissions, that’s just not the best way to make the cut. My daughter was a dancer from early childhood – she learned very early that the back row was not a good place to stand during an audition-- that it was better to be way out in front missing a few steps than to have perfect technique but hidden from view in the back of the studio. </p>
<p>The elite-level colleges aren’t looking for reasons to reject; in a sense, every file they look at is a likely reject and they are looking for reasons to accept. If there are 2000 kids at a high school, with one gc – and that gc clearly knows the kid either personally or by an established in-school reputation (in the way everyone “knows” the star athlete or the kid who always has a starring role and delivers a knockout performance in the school play) – then that telegraphs to the ad com: this is a stand-out kid. And that’s what the top end schools are looking for. </p>
<p>That doesn’t mean it hurts if the g.c. says, “I’ve got a caseload of 1500 kids and I only end up seeing the troublemakers – and that’s why I don’t know this kid.” That sort of letter (whether stated expressly or implied) doesn’t hurt, and it doesn’t help. But at the elite level, in a way its like looking for needles in a haystack – so the LOR request is like casting out a magnet and seeing what it attracts.</p>
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I have 2 very different kids as well, one of whom is far more organized and proactive in taking care of paperwork or addressing problems, the other who was more laid back. They both took their habits with them to college, and that’s why the organized/proactive one will be graduating with honors after 4 years, and the laid back kid who seemed to assume that problems he didn’t want to deal with would go away of their own accord ended up dropping out after 2 years. </p>
<p>No one is saying that the introverted kid is not worthy of a higher education. But my proactive kid is on an Ivy campus and it is a highly competitive environment – I don’t think that it would necessarily be a good place for a student with weaker organizational skills or less confidence. Navigating college often means talking to various deans, advisors, department heads, and other administrators to deal with an assortment of different issues over the four years – and FERPA laws make it difficult for parents to find out what is going on, much less intervene. </p>
<p>So basically – I agree, kids are different. I had one that was far more ready for college than the other. One way I could assess readiness, in hindsight, was the degree to which each took responsibility for managing all the extraneous details of their lives.</p>
<p>Welcome, MacTessa.</p>