<p>I was under the impression from CC and many other sources that rigor of the course matter a lot over GPA. But it doesn't seem to work that way at HYPMSC admissions. D school have three level of courses regular, honors and APs but it add same weight to honors and APs courses. The result is that she is not on the cum laude at the end of junior year. The way the cum laude at her school works is that the society picks the top 20% GPA wise at the school and then selects 10% at the end of junior year and another 10% at the end of the senior year.
By not making it to the list this year it is clear that my D is not in the top 20%.
While tracking the admissions at her school I found that everyone that matriculates to the HYPMSC was part of this cum laude by senior year that means their GPA was in the top 20%.
I've analyzed different cases of the students who had perfect SAT or being nominated Siemens’s Semi finalists fail to get acceptance at HYPMSC because of not being part of the cum laude. While on the otherhand students failing to make even NMSF (meaning having a low PSAT and SAT) get acceptance from HYPMSC as they are on this cum laude list.
So my suggestion to all CCers that I was misguided by many on this site and by many others outside of the site that it is better to get B+ in an AP than an A in Honors or regular course but found out too late that it is not the case.
GPA rules and where ever rank is provided it rules too.
Colleges just don't take pain to go beyond the transcript. Passions and other things are secondary. It really matter that you have straight As and no A- or B+.
You will have a better shot at HYPMSC if you design your transcript. Pick and choose courses that will provide you the best GPA.
I'm not saying go low on the APs or honors. I'm just saying choose AP Calc AB over AP Calc BC if you can score a higher GPA in AB over BC. Choose AP Physics B over AP Physics C or choose Honors Physics. Choose Honors Biology over AP Biology and Honors Chemistry over AP Chemistry. This is valid if the school don’t weight or weight same for APs and honors classes.
It seems like the game is over for my D. I’ll advise other to not make such mistakes if they are planning to apply to HYPMSC.</p>
<p>I disagree. I think students should take the course that fits them best, without thinking about which will help them gain admission to a specific school.</p>
<p>I would never advise my kids to take a class below their level in order to boost their grade. It goes against everything I believe about education.</p>
<p>My son took eight AP’s and and five honor’s course only got one B in an AP course, was recruited to play a sport at Harvard and didn’t get in. There are too many students who take more than 10 AP classes and still get all A’s and don’t get in. It’s a crap shoot. Apply but don’t count on them getting in and if they do, think of it as a blessing.</p>
<p>This is where the OP is wrong. If you want to get into a good college you should be getting As in the AP classes. I am positive that many of the top students at your daughter’s school are taking many tough classes with a high number of APs and honors. My school weighted honors classes the same as AP classes, so if you took all honors classes and no AP classes you could still end up with close to a 5.0 and possibly be the val. However, every year the top 5% of students at my school are made up of many bright kids who take a lot of AP classes and challenged themselves in high school. Not kids who took the easiest courseload to get the highest GPA.</p>
<p>If you ask an admissions counselor (in my experience) they will not give a clear answer as to whether it is better to take an honors class or an AP class, but they will always suggest taking the tougher class. If you are really top college material you should be able to do well in a high school class, even if it is AP. Remember, colleges look at both your GPA and the classes you take. You have to show them that you are challenging yourself by taking a tough course load.</p>
<p>By no means am I saying that someone should take all AP classes. Taking a bunch of very tough classes along with ECs can be demanding for a high school student. If you aren’t the strongest math student, take AB calc or honors calc instead of BC calc. It’s like lifting weights. If you are weak, don’t try to bench 400lbs.</p>
<p>mtpaper: That was the motto and she picked most courses because she did not want to go below her level. But it hurts a lot if you know that other deliberately took easier classes so that the GPA stays high. What happened?Those who picked the courses according to whether or not they will be able to maintain A got on the cum laude list for her class. Time will tell who will get into HYPMSC but the school history suggest if you are not there it will be very tough.</p>
<p>Venkat89: Consider the example: If you are strong in math and score A on Hons. Pre Calc the recomended course is AP Calc BC but many take AP Calc AB if they think they cannot get an A.
If you score A in Honors Physics the recommended course is AP Chemistry but many take Honors Chemistry because they think they may get an A-.
Similarly if you get A- or above in AP Chem then recomended course is to take AP Biology but many take Honors Biology if they think they will go down to A-. If you get A in world history in freshman recomended course is AP Euro History in 10th followed by AP US History but many don’t take AP Euro and take US History if they think they will get B+/A-.
But it seems those who make those decisions are winning. Colleges seems to give a damn about what you take as long as you have a mix of APs and Honors.
Also if you get A-/A AP Calc BC and A in Hons. Physics then the recommended course is AP Physics C but many take AP Physics B.
I don’t have problem with students who take the strongest course gets straight A and go to HYPMSC as they deserve. The problem is when your are short changed becuase of not weighing the APs properly.</p>
<p>Could just explain on the application that your school doesn’t weight for APs. That would fix that problem.</p>
<p>But do those kids who take the easier route get into HYPSM? In my experience, the kids who get into HYPSM take the toughest course load at my school and get As. The kids, including myself, who get into other top colleges (top 20 USNWR universities and top 10 LACs) are in a mix of people who took very tough classes and earned good grades. These kids didn’t get 4.0s, but were pretty close. You do not need a 4.0 to get into a good college. You also have SATs, ECs, recs, and other factors that go into college admissions. A student who took easier classes to get a 4.0 might also be a kid who isn’t as involved in ECs or didn’t really wow his teachers because he took easier classes.</p>
<p>I’ll admit here that I took easier classes in Spanish and English and got As in them while I may have not gotten As in the AP levels. I did this, however, not to get better grades for college. I chose the easier classes because I did not want to slave away at subjects that I do not enjoy just to have a few more AP classes to impress colleges. Taking 4 AP classes my junior year in math and science made it not worth it to add on the extra stress of AP english. Senior year applying to colleges, having an internship, and taking AP and college level classes in math and science also made it not worth it to add a few extra hours in an AP english or AP spanish class that I would not enjoy. I did not end up making it to HYPSMC (though you can’t really say my college is too much bellow them). My classmates who did take all APs and got As in all of them were the ones who made it to HYPSMC. Not kids who get 4.0s taking easier classes and not kids who took all APs and didn’t succeed in them. You need to be really smart and talented to get into HYPSMC.</p>
<p>ParentofIvyHope: If your D is a junior, and if all of what you’re reporting regarding your school is accurate, then why are you assuming she’s not in the top 20%? Didn’t you say in your first post that cum laude at her school inducts half of the top twenty junior year, and half senior year? If that’s the case, I don’t follow why are you assuming that she will not make it next year. </p>
<p>(Also, are you sure that GPA is the sole criterion for Cum Laude Society at your school? If it’s part of the national organization, that would be somewhat unusual. But maybe it’s just a school-based organization.)</p>
<p>Like everyone else said kids that get into top school have tough courses and good averages. Colleges see what courses you take and ALWAYS ALWAYS a hard course load will offset a slightly weaker gpa. Obviously the ideal goal is to do amazing in the hardest classes, but we all know thats not always possible. For the record I have the same situation with Cum Laude in my school and I may or not may not make the cut(for the first 10%), but in the end that will not determine where I go to college. Also what is this HYPSMC stuff— if the C is meant to mean Columbia you may as well have Penn in there too, because Columbia is by no means superior to Penn, they are either even or Penn is slightly better. I am posting that last part, just because people on this board seem to slight Penn when it is clearly one of the if not the best IVY after HYP.</p>
<p>HarrietMWelsch: I’m not sure what else is the criteria for induction into the cum laude but they pick it from the top 20% GPA wise.</p>
<p>I’m sorry that your D didn’t have a good experience. I can only speak to my own. I did the stuff that you are saying not to do…took the hardest classes even though we didn’t weight grades at all, didn’t worry about the occasional B on my report card, did stuff that I <em>enjoyed</em> without “designing” my transcript too much, didn’t care about rank (our school didn’t rank, but nearly every school asked for an estimate anyway). I got into six of the US News top 20 (including one of the schools referred to by the acronym in this thread title).</p>
<p>There are a couple of points to remember:</p>
<ul>
<li>At an ordinary high school (something like an academically intense magnet or exclusive prep school may be different), if you are strong enough academically for those top schools, you <em>should</em> be able to get As the large majority of the time, even in the toughest classes, and you shouldn’t have to sell your soul to do it, either.</li>
</ul>
<p>I mean, I have to say, unless your D goes to a very strong high school, if I were an HYPMSC adcom, I would seriously wonder about the qualifications about someone who couldn’t crack the top 20% of the class, even taking into account a tough schedule. I wouldn’t dismiss them, but I would want to see some really good stuff or a good explanation to make up for it. That doesn’t mean that challenging yourself and doing activities you care about is wrong.</p>
<ul>
<li>Even if you are academically qualified, admission to these schools is just not a guarantee. There are too many qualified students for the number of spots, and too many variables at hand.</li>
</ul>
<p>Bescraze: C is ‘Caltech’.</p>
<p>ParentOfIvyHope- I suspected a similar situation at my daughter’s school (people taking “lesser” classes were getting higher GPA’s and thus getting into Cum Laude before kids taking killer courses). </p>
<p>I asked an ex-college admissions officer what to do. He said that, if that was indeed the case, we should ask the Counselor, in her recommendation, to explain the school policy for selecting Cum Laude members. Additionally, we made sure 1) that the counselor was aware that D was taking the hardest course-load possible and 2) that she noted this in her recommendation.</p>
<p>After going through college applications with two kids, I realize this is all part of the process of conveying to colleges exactly who your child is and where he/she is coming from, i.e. in the context of their school. In the end (at least in my theory), all these little bits of information are necessary to build the complete picture of why Susie or Johnny is truly outstanding and would be such a great asset to Harvard, Vanderbilt, USC or wherever they’re applying.</p>
<p>My daughter’s school also admit 50% kids into cum laude junior year, then the other 50% senior year. At my daughter’s school, GPA is only a criteria, there are other factors that are taken into consideration. They select students with certain GPA as potential candidates, then the current members get to vote on who gets in. Every member (faculty and current cum laude student) get to say something about each candidate. Even if you have very high GPA, but do not demonstrate leadership, citizenship… then you would not be admitted. Therefore it is not surprising to me that most members of cum laude get into top tier schools, but it is not all based on GPA.</p>
<p>S1’s school works much the same as oldfort’s, though I think if possible they place even less emphasis on the GPA criterion and more on the honor, character, etc.</p>
<p>POIH, I think you are right. My daughter got into all the schools that her high school naviance predict based on her GPA. Her SAT is higher or equal to most kids that got into HYPMCS. So if I ignore essays, ECs, SATs and use the GPA only, I would be able to predict her admission results because it’s the only thing that really correlates. Her naviance does not list the difference between Honors and AP.</p>
<p>^^^: I realized that but late that is why I put up this thread so that no other parent make such mistake. Everyone say take tough courses and do well but don’t be grade grabber, show passion. But in reality you need to play the game to maximize GPA.</p>
<p>“I’ve analyzed different cases of the students who had perfect SAT or being nominated Siemens’s Semi finalists fail to get acceptance at HYPMSC because of not being part of the cum laude.”</p>
<p>You have got to stop with the mentality that it’s solely a function of the numbers. Unless you were part of the admissions committee, you don’t know that the reason these students failed to get acceptance at HYPSMC was <em>because</em> they weren’t part of the cum laude. Maybe there was something else about their applications or personal interviews or recommendations that was not compelling. And maybe – here’s the real kicker – they WERE indeed perfectly qualified for HYPSMC and the acceptance committee would agree to that – but they can only let so many people in. Remember, Harvard says that 90% of its applicants are fully qualified for Harvard academically - yet they can only let in 8%. </p>
<p>Yes, yes, we know that in everyone’s home country it was all done by the numbers, and that not being admitted meant that you couldn’t cut it. It doesn’t mean that here. Being rejected from Harvard does NOT mean that someone was viewed by the adcom as not being Harvard-worthy. It just means that they had tons of people who were Harvard-worthy and could only choose a handful. </p>
<p>It is tiring to read about how rejections from Harvard meant that someone “did something wrong” in their application. It’s amazing how all the parents of these math-and-science-whiz-kids don’t seem to understand the basic math that Harvard only has room for a small % of applicants and that a rejection is not an indication that the student wasn’t fully qualified. </p>
<p>Harvard rejects TONS of valedictorians, straight A-students and 2400 SAT’s. Get used to it.</p>
<p>"I don’t have problem with students who take the strongest course gets straight A and go to HYPMSC as they deserve. "</p>
<p>And there’s your problem right there. If you just took all the strongest-course-straight-A takers and eliminated everyone else, HYPSMC DOESN"T HAVE ENOUGH ROOM FOR ALL OF THEM. Stop acting as though they would be entitled spots, smart as they would be.</p>
<p>Besides, what kind of person actually thinks that the only schools worth attending are HYPSMC, and is so narrow in their selection that they don’t look beyond the Top 20?</p>