In These Times: Practical vs. Follow Your Heart

Parents Forum
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<p>My daughter had similar interests, and did go to a tech school. She cross registered, took German, Ancient Greek Religion, Civic Environmentalism, and played in an orchestra of staff and students from an adjacent college. </p>

<p>After 3.5 years of engineering, she announced that she did NOT want to be an engineer, did not want to be a "cubicle monkey." She's completing a master's in Technology Policy, looking at a ph.d or law school next. She seems to have found her niche. </p>

<p>And the cost. . . . undergrad was total tuition scholarship, master's paid for as a research assistant, and ph.d. will be the same. It's possible if you pick the right schools and right programs. </p>

<p>But to echo earlier posters. . . if she's not reasonably dedicated to an engineering curriculum, she will be totally miserable. Even if she is dedicated, she will be miserable sometimes! She does need to make her own decision.</p>

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<p>If I'm typical of any college student, pushing kids into one direction often results in them pushing themselves in the other direction, especially in that mid-teen to late teen "Anyone over 30 is wrong even if they're right" phase. My mom tried to push engineering or med on me, I guess for the same reason Madeline's Dad is, a career that I frankly had no interest in whatsoever (at the time I wanted to be a corporate lawyer). So what happened? I "failed" the last trimester of chem and an entire year of physics sophomore and junior years just to get my mom to shut up about it. Then at the end of junior year I told her I have no interest in engineering or med. Now I decided I'm going to law school and then going into bankruptcy/tax law, and then if that doesn't work out, I can always go into consulting.</p>

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<p>I have a good friend whose first degree in in EE, then he went to medical school. Lots of pharmacists I know become doctors as well. </p>

<p>I have a dumb question to ask, why can't engineering graduates work in fields that liberal arts graduates qualify for ? </p>

<p>When my children were picking majors, I told them basically to pursue something they feel strongly for, but if they don't know what they want to do, then pick something practical that don't hate and they have the ability to succeed in. I know people who never find what they have a passion for and spent their lives looking. (I think maybe for them that career do not exist, maybe like soul mates for some ?) </p>

<p>IMO it is easier to decide what to do with your life when you have a marketable skill and able to pay your own way.</p>

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<p>Usually in the first year or two in college it doesn't matter what the major is. Most students are getting all of their general or distribution requirements to fulfill and have no idea what they will end up choosing as a major. They often change thier minds a number of times. No reason why your D should not take some tech courses along with humanities courses and see how she does in them.<br>
My personal opinion is that the engineering major is tough and demanding. Unless highly motivated and/or "wired" for the maths/sciences/computer/ mechanics fields, students do not do well in those courses, despise them and spend more time studying than they would in other fields. That is why so many kids switch from that major to the social sciences or humanities. If your D can do the work and see herself in such fields, it would be wonderful. She certainly should give the courses a try. </p>

<p>In my personal experience, sometimes the choosing of a major is a luxury. Often it comes down to just hoping they graduate in 4 years with major crises. Don't care what their major is.</p>

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<p>anneroku, you understand where my husband is coming from, very well. Very reassuring post. Thank you for all of it. </p>

<p>I have to say, I at first found this thread painful. Too much of an "either /or" , and maybe that was my doing. Engineer vs. other. Kind of uncomfortable, because my d just doesn't fit inside the box. Any box. A lot of kids are like this. Lots of sides, lots of interests, lots of choices. Thanks to all of you for your examples of your kids and others. It's good to have company and to have examples of so many of the ways that "life happens".</p>

<p>Treetopleaf said: "I happen to think that part of the reason that relatively few females go into engineering is because they are more likely to be bwrk types and several options are open to them."<br>
I agree. </p>

<p>It seems that we find it much easier to let our kids "explore" in the humanities than in a field like engineering. Perhaps it is easier to explore in the humanities, but with so many types of engineering, it does not seem odd, to me, to do some exploring there.
"Undecided Engineer" is an option, thank goodness (and of course there is Undecided, just plain undecided!), and switching From an engineering major is possible, and easier than switching to it, it seems.
Maybe the tech schools wouldn't be the best option for the uncertain, although they might be a great financial option, in my d's case --we shall see! From their interest I am guessing so. Even at the tech schools, some of those who are certain that they are certain must switch majors... or schools (oh dear...)...</p>

<p>I can't change my husband, and he can't change my daughter (and wouldn't want to), so I think I'll just hang on for the ride and trust in your wisdom that most kids find their way. </p>

<p>I think we'll be ok as long as "cubicle monkey" isn't an actual option, and my daughter doesn't intentionally fail years of physics and a trimester of chem<em>.
(</em>heavens, futurenyustudent, isn't that a little extreme?) </p>

<p>Keeping notes of your helpful info!</p>

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<p>It was the only way to get my mom off my back about going for med or engineering, and since I'm at NYU now it didn't affect me that much :D</p>

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<p>OP, I too have an engineer husband who wants our boys to major in something practical. They both have chosen that path (not engineering though) of their own accord. They are at big state universities which offer many options (practical and non) from which to choose. S1 originally chose engineering but realized right away it was not for him and changed his major.</p>

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<p>"It seems that we find it much easier to let our kids "explore" in the humanities than in a field like engineering. Perhaps it is easier to explore in the humanities, but with so many types of engineering, it does not seem odd, to me, to do some exploring there."</p>

<p>Part of the reason is that exploring in engineering means a student will take labor intensive difficult science courses their first year, not giving them that much time to explore other options including participation in clubs that would help broaden their awareness of what they want to do.</p>

<p>S participated in a seven week summer engineering program, passing up a summer in Paris with H and me the summer before his senior year in h.s. That combined with his gap year with Americorps let S know that despite the fact that calculus was his easiest subject, engineering wasn't for him. The gap year also helped him realize that a LAC was his best fit.</p>

<p>To my surprise, as a result of some explorations in college including in theater courses and arts-related clubs, S seems headed for a career in some aspect of film making.</p>

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<p>NSM - that's great. Someone will need to make a great documentary about the day the music died - again.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
did not want to be a "cubicle monkey."

[/quote]

Haha - someone's reading too much 'Dilbert'. </p>

<p>There are plenty of professions where people do their share of 'cubicle time' including where most college grads will probably end up. However, there are also plenty of engineers that aren't chained to their cubes all th etime and end up traveling all over the world, meeting with many different people, etc.</p>

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<p>blossom wrote:
[quote]
Create a list of schools which have the following:
Strong engineering school
Wide choices in Arts and sciences if she hates engineering
Good mix of social/non academic opportunities (this is where many kids discover their passion- from other students, from jobs, from a lecture or symposium that "looks cool")

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I know you said you have schools in mind, but I'm still going to mention *Smith College *, which is all of the above, and a fine liberal arts college with an engineering masters program option, all for women.</p>

<p>She could explore all the arts and sciences during her four years, and if her thoughts align with the direction of engineering, she'd be right there to pursue it; otherwise major in something else. I guess it delays the decision, but she'll be older and able to be more decisive.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
prospects of all sorts seem unpredictable. Where is that crystal ball when I need it???

[/quote]
If you're looking for a field thats guaranteed to be very financially rewarding for almost all participants, good luck ;) </p>

<p>If such an area does exist then it will probably be something that has gov't enforced barriers to entry, something that law or custom prohibits from being supplied offshore or is prohibitively expensive to do so. Something in demand and with little promise of that demand ever slackening. But even in so-called poorer fields there are those who still do very well, and in what are often considered profitable fields (eg. law) there are many just scraping by. BTW I don't know of any areas that meet the above criteria; if you do let us know so we can invest in companies in that field!</p>

<p>I'd suggest your D try to find something she is passionate about doing, rather than picking an area in hopes of a financial windfall. For one, as many posters have commented, its hard to pick a field with an enduring advantage. More importantly, to rise in a field you really have to enjoy doing it. Its the extra effort you put in when nobody's looking (or paying) that builds proficiency and helps put you in the forefront of your peers.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I'd suggest your D try to find something she is passionate about doing, rather than picking an area in hopes of a financial windfall.

[/quote]
Some of the worst advice of all time. One should always look at the employment prospects of a field before spending 4 years and a lot of money training for. Only after it passes some sort of financial test of being able to meet a minimum standard of living should you go into it (food/rent/car/mortgage/healthcare/etc). Sometimes passion is best kept as a hobby (ie: being an artist/musician/acting). The number of dreams that have been crushed by the cold reality of the job market is too high not to put some sort of financial test on career goals.</p>

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<p>(cross-posted with Mr Payne)</p>

<p>The crystal-ball quote is out-of-context light-hearted banter, but I wish I hadn't said it so it wouldn't be misconstued. </p>

<p>"I'd suggest your D try to find something she is passionate about doing, rather than picking an area in hopes of a financial windfall."</p>

<p>^^
wow.
Where'd you get this from mikemac?
I thank you for your viewpoint, but you are off base with this. </p>

<p>Find something she is passionate about doing? Something? She is passionate about MANY things. She is an award-winning artist, writer, and athlete. She reads a ton. She's happy and involved in her school and community. She's beloved by her friends and respected and admired. She has many little interests and nuances that make her an interesting person, but she has no ONE direction that she or anyone can point to as her ONE course in life. I imagine many parents have a daughter or son like mine who is busy, bright, and a flat-out good human being who could do many things. </p>

<p>She doesn't care about "financial windfall", at all. She has some ideas for careers and courses of study, one of which is engineering because she sees engineers as "doers and problem solvers". She knows a couple engineers. What they do is fascinating, though not easy. She's researched the field (and many others...) and while she can't say, "this is my CALLING," she likes it as well as anything and better than many things. </p>

<p>It is My Husband who feels that, especially in light of the dismal economy, she should study the most practical of her choices and interests. He feels she should have a skill set and a job when she graduates. </p>

<p>It is easier to change From engineering than To it. </p>

<p>Being an engineer doesn't mean she abandons her writing abililty or people skills or creativity. Those things would be assets in many fields, including engineering.
Indeed, parents here (like ucsd<em>ucla</em>dad) have told how their children have studied engineering, took humanties courses, and continued their interests in the arts. </p>

<p>And, as munchkin asked, can't an engineering major, especially one who has writing and people skills and is creative, get the same sorts of entry-level jobs as many other university grads? Especially with quantitative skills? So... aren't a lot of doors still open, no matter what the major?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
payne writes: The cold reality is that demand for engineers is on the up, and supply is going down

[/quote]
You can take the anonymous word of this poster on this, or you could rely on what the US Bureau of Labor Statistics has to say. Me, I'd put more faith in the latter... The Occupational Outlook Handbook, 2008-09 Edition says
[quote]
Overall engineering employment is expected to grow by 11 percent over the 2006-16 decade, about as fast as the average for all occupations.</p>

<p>Offshoring of engineering work will likely dampen domestic employment growth to some degree. There are many well-trained, often English-speaking engineers available around the world willing to work at much lower salaries than U.S. engineers. The rise of the Internet has made it relatively easy for part of the engineering work previously done by engineers in this country to be done by engineers in other countries, a factor that will tend to hold down employment growth.

[/quote]
Doesn't sound like "demand up, supply down" does it?</p>

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<p>Absolutely there are great opportunities for engineers that are not in cubicles! After going to U-M Ann Arbor for Engineering my brother is now an entrepreneur setting his own schedule. Engineering is a great background that can be applied in many directions. Lots of engineers do great in B-school or law school for then practicing patent law if they want to expand beyond their original interest.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
You can take the anonymous word of this poster on this, or you could rely on what the US Bureau of Labor Statistics has to say. Me, I'd put more faith in the latter... The Occupational Outlook Handbook, 2008-09 Edition says

[/quote]
1. Engineers in this country are compensated at a similar level as most 1st world economies.
2. Engineers in this country have an incredibly low unemployment rate.
3. If demand for engineers in this country drops wages will also drop (keeping one employed, just paid less).
4. Engineering employment is expected to increase by 11%? That's going to be virtually impossible to match because the graduation rate of engineers is not matching the retirement rate of engineers. If anything, engineering employment in this country will be <em>static</em>, furthering job security.
5. If engineering stops being done in the US then the core value creation of this economy will be finished and virtually every other profession will see reduced living standards as well.
6. Offshoring can affect many professions.</p>

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<p>I think Mr Payne is a new graduate, he is optimistic. I know a couple who both graduated from Stanford with a Masters degree and a husband had a undergraduate from Cornell Engineering. They have both been laid off for 3 times since 9/11. Don't count on the demand up, it's not for all engineering jobs and it still depends on the field. Right now Petroleum/Chemical Engineering is hot, and it may not be hot for long if oil prices continue to go downward. Structure/Civil Engineering will be the next hot field because of all the money that will be spend from the next administration.</p>

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<p>"A student will an aggressive major/course of study can alway step back to do the non-tech."</p>

<p>I'm sorry, but who says that a non-technical major can't be as agressive, if not MORE aggressive than a compsci or engineering field? As long as the OP's student stretches their mind to the limit, they'll have made the right decision.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
"I'd suggest your D try to find something she is passionate about doing, rather than picking an area in hopes of a financial windfall."</p>

<p>^^
wow.
Where'd you get this from mikemac?
I thank you for your viewpoint, but you are off base with this.

[/quote]
Where did I get this from? Oh, my life experiences and from fools like Warren Buffett. But what does he know, right? :rolleyes:</p>

<p>In this forum rather than Buffett we're blessed with sages like Payne who disputes the work of researchers at the US Bureau of Labor Statistics whom apparently aren't capable of comprehending the labor market with the penetrating insight Payne possesses, and who deems advice paralleling the sentiments of Warren Buffett "Some of the worst advice of all time". Yeah, poor Warren, just never seems to get it right. Lucky us to have Payne here to set Warren straight, not to mention the dopes over at Labor. Choose your guide ... And given you see this advice as "off base", I guess you already have.
[quote]
The best advice on choosing a career, Buffett said, was to find something you loved. After that, the money would seem unimportant. He said he drank the same sodas as us and ate the same fast food, though he got a discount at Dairy Queen because he owned it. The only real difference, he said, was that "I fly differently"</p>

<p>source: Warren Buffett addressing Harvard MBAs, quoted in Ahead of the Curve -- Two Years at Harvard Business School pp 138-9

[/quote]
</p>