^^ This! My daughter is hoping to take AP Psychology and APES senior year, not because they’re easy, but because she’s excited about them. She has packed her schedule full of classic core honors/APs and required courses up to now. She will have taken all the sciences (including AP physics) and will have a non-STEM major in college, and so I’m inclined to let her substitute them instead of AP bio or chem (which each take up two class periods at her school).
Yes, absolutely, if your daughter has one each of bio-chem-physics, is not aiming for STEM, and is interested in the subject, she should take APES! And it’s 100% the right choice.
However make sure she has an ap in English (lit, usually), history/social science, and level 4 or AP in a foreign language. If she’s interested in Humanities, she wants her strongest classes to be in Humanities (and still take one science and one math at any level, not necessarily AP).
4 APs senior year is plenty… No need to take more.
Thanks, @MYOS1634, she will have had honors classes in bio, chem and earth/space science (go figure, that was pushed on the top students in her school freshman year in addition to bio) APs in Physics, Lit, Lang, US Gov, World, U.S. History and CS P (gov and a tech class are graduation requirements) and probably AP Spanish and either APCalc AB or AP stats. Band/Jazz band all four years. She may also take an interesting honors historical methods class (students research/publish a book of local history every year along a theme, which involves taking oral histories as well as digging up document research. The history class and AP Psych and ES may not seem as impressive to some adcoms as AP chem, but they do reflect more of who she is, and I support that. Not applying to T20s anyway.
Back to the thread at hand, not worried about the ‘most rigorous’ designation. Our GC told me that she checks off the box if the student’s record is the most rigorous path to THAT student’s individual future goals (and that applies to the vo-tech students aiming for trade schools as well as those aiming for a business/humanities/STEM degree.)
Sounds right 
She’ll be okay and it’s important to study what you like senior year once you’ve taken all the core classes.
APUSH in our school was harder than regular US History, but it did not involve two hours of homework a night. I doubt my kids ever did more than half an hour, except the weekends they were writing research papers. (There was one longish one each semeser IRC.)
I also think it’s highly unlikely that a college is going to think a kid with 9 APs, did not have a rigorous schedule, no matter what box the school did or did not check.
This is warning sign number one. If you believe what is posted on CC, you might come to the conclusion that anyone without 1550+ SAT, 14 AP’s and published research is destined for Community College.
The counselor form has either 4 or 5 designations, I don’t remember which, to define a students coursework. It’s not like “most rigorous” is a magical designation reserved for the special top handful of students. Our counselor described her decision process, and I suspect at least 15-20% of the students met them - pretty much anyone following the full honors tracks.
Ask your counselor how it is determined - every school, and probably every counselor, answers the question based on their own criteria. I would be quite surprised if 8-9 AP’s was not considered rigorous because it was missing one class.
Depends on the college, depends on what AP. Sure, a schedule full of the lesser APs, at the expense of cores, can do you in. But that’s the college’s perspecitive, not what the GC definition of Most Demanding might be.
Lots of good reasons the top colleges look at the transcript.
But sure, a Very Demanding can be a problem at the you-know-which colleges.
“Hi, my son is currently a junior, taking AP Physics C, AP Calc B/C, AP English, regular Spanish and regular US History. Last year he took AP Chem. Next year he plans to take AP Spanish, AP Stats, AP Lit, AP Bio or Psych, and AP Econ or Government”
So most rigorous by high school GC and what colleges view rigorous can be different, as others have mentioned, notably lookingforward. This is pretty rigorous, however adcoms may look at why the regular Spanish and USH if honors/AP versions were offered. If you’re applying to a stem programs (outside of MIT, Cal Tech), your son is totally fine and I wouldn’t be concerned at all.
However the stem applicants to the more selective colleges will have apush, honors spanish in addition to the classes you’re son is taking.
For the most selective colleges, students should assume that a counselor’s “most demanding” schedule rating is necessary, but not sufficient. Also, the less commonly talked about counselor’s academic achievement rating should be “one of the top few I’ve encountered”, probably also necessary, but not sufficient.
Actually, I’m sure the top colleges are accepting plenty of students who have neither of those boxes checked. They ARE looking for students who stand out in significant ways – but a list of the same set of AP’s or honors courses they see in just about every application isn’t what stands out to them. Definitely doesn’t hurt for those boxes to be checked – but it isn’t “necessary” when there are other factors favoring admission.
For the OP’s son, the standout quality happens to be football… see the thread at http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/athletic-recruits/2164866-high-academic-and-ivy-football-junior-year-planning.html
I recall that thread, wasn’t sure if the son was going to be a recruited athlete or not. If he is a recruited athlete, that totally changes the picture.
@theloniusmonk agreed! We are poised to go down multiple alternate pathways at this time: 1) recruited Ivy/High Academic LAC football…2) NMS winner…or 3) non-hooked, strong stats, middle-class ordinary excellent STEM student with a somewhat unique story to tell regarding his single mom moving him multiple times - 5 different elementary schools, 2 middle schools (plus a brief detour to a third location due to the Porter Ranch gas leak) in four different cities.
It’s interesting that so many suggested to talk to GC. The general goal for GCs is to make sure the students do not fail HS, and make sure the student fits into some kind of “norm”, whatever that “norm” is for a particular HS. They are not there to challenge your kid, or push them to meet their full potential. I am not being jaded by the process or anything like that. I am just being realistic of my expectation of the GCs.
In my D19’s experience, the GC constantly tried to lower her expectation, kept pushing for more safeties and matches, suggested DD to removed some of the schools that she considered “high reach”. DD said I would be happy with Penn State or Rutgers, I don’t need to add more safeties. GC just didn’t listen/understand.
OP, you know your kid and what colleges she is applying for. There is no specific answer to your question, just a general sense that the more rigorous the better for most colleges. But NOT if it negatively impacted the GPA and her stress level. I would rather have an A for regular history than a B in APUSH (for example). You just have to weight out the stress vs. the reward.
@Nhatrang - The GC is the only person who is going to be able to answer the OP’s question as to what this student’s high school considers “most rigorous.” For any competitive school, that box needs to be checked off.
Some schools give everyone that designation, others are stingy with it and APUSH could be the difference. That’s why so many are recommending asking the GC directly. (And some schools aren’t even transparent with what it takes).
I think it’s very, very hard to make any generalizations about GCs. There is just too much variability school to school. My D’s school’s GCs were wonderful and nothing like your experience.
But what does it matter if the HS thinks it’s rigorous or not? HS can think whatever they want. it’s the colleges that matter.
I think the GC’s role depends what school he is at. At an inner city school it may be to graduate. For anyone on this thread the GC’s is most likely more important. At one of the schools my D20 applied the school had a book for the GC on their website. As it’s been suggested the GC’s don’t matter I don’t think that’s correct. I more likely believe colleges aren’t as thorough at looking at applications as they would lead you to believe.
A side story. We visited a school this summer that my D20’s counselor had also just visited this summer. When my D20 told him she was applying there he said you will get in and be invited to the Honors College. Did the counselor visiting help? Was just a coincidence? Maybe maybe not. All I know is he was right.
As to the rigorous thing I don’t think colleges know every school. But the counselor knows their school.
High school counselor’s indication of “most demanding” schedule choice is probably necessary but not sufficient for a super selective college admissions reader to look favorably on the applicant’s course choices.
I.e. if the high school says “most demanding”, the college may still want to see more. But if the high school says something less than “most demanding”, the college will see that the applicant is not even one of the best (academically) in the high school, much less the whole applicant pool.
" 1) recruited Ivy/High Academic LAC football…2) NMS winner…or 3) non-hooked, strong stats, middle-class ordinary excellent STEM"
What is NMS winner, national merit? Those aren’t announced until after decisions are made, only semi-finalist status is known at time of admission.
If your son is ok playing football, the recruited athlete is the best option, there’s not even a close second when it comes to admissions. Good luck!
@theloniusmonk yes, I meant National Merit Scholarship/Finalist winner. Yes I know that even the Semi-Finalists won’t be announced for many months, let alone the Finalists. However, from a risk-based decision-making standpoint the odds are extremely high that if he scores, for example, an SI 224, then he will be named a Semi-Finalist in California. And since approximately 15,000 of the 16,000 Semi-Finalists every year are named as Finalists, and the most common reasons for not being named are for problems that would not affect S21 (e.g., failing to provide a confirming SAT score, getting into behavioral trouble at school, failing to complete the application on time), then I’m making several relatively low-risk assumptions that if he gets a 224 or above, we are golden. If he gets a 221 or below, we are out. And if he gets a 222 or 223, we are on pins and needles until the 2021 threshold for CA is announced.
He is aware that it is my very strong preference that he NOT play football in college. He loves the game, he is good at the game, and the game terrifies me. About 4 hours after a game this past season where he played almost every snap, OL and DL, at 2:30am, he woke me up with sudden onset of very clear concussion symptoms (vomiting, headache, light sensitivity). We spent the rest of the morning in the ER. This is why I am more open to Ivy League play, but very hesitant about any other league - because from what I have read they are really, really attentive to minimizing risk of head trauma. S21 has acknowledged that he may not be good/big enough anyway, and even if he is, if he can get a full ride or close to a full ride based on his academic achievements, then that is the way to go. Who knows, all kinds of factors are at play and he might change his mind if given the opportunity, but that’s where we are right now. So I’d say that for most other sports the recruited athlete route would be the clear preference, but for a football lineman the decision is a lot more nuanced.
@sherimba03 – the schools that might give your son a full ride or nearly full ride based on his NM status are in a very different tier of selectivity – they are safeties or near-safeties for your son, and they will definitely reward him for his overall stats (NM status, SAT scores, GPA) – but they aren’t going to care at all which boxes the GC is checking. So you really are looking at different strategic paths. The athletic recruiting path is going to be largely dependent on whether or not an athletic coach wants him – his basic stats are more than good enough to get in, if he is recruited.
I think those boxes could be very important for some students in some contexts – but I just don’t think it’s going to make much of a difference for your son, given the particular options and goals he has.