<p>^^Bay you are missing ~40% of the other important admissions factor: MCAT score. Since Stanford selects Frosh based in part on high test scores, its students have higher test scores than Cal State Frosh. Stanford is full of a bunch of good test takers (and smart kids). Its grads will should score much higher on the mcat (on average). Thus, its entirely possible that the 3.5 from S has a higher test score than a 4.0 from Cal State. OTOH, a 4.0/35 from Cal State…</p>
<p>^^^</p>
<p>It’s not just the overall GPA that’s looked at. It’s GPA in the sciences and the MCAT score as well. If the 4.0 GPA CSUF student has a much higher MCAT than the 3.5 GPA Stanford grad, then the CSUF student would probably get chosen.</p>
<p>"an English Prof:
“If you are an ambitious humanities student, it is a big advantage to attend a school with excellent PhD and MFA programs. Faculty at such institutions are required to publish/go to conferences in their field/establish national or international reputations, so they are likely to be interesting for serious students. They are used to mentoring and evaluating grad students so they will be able to give you an accurate assessment of your prospects in the field, which may not be true in a smaller LAC. As you get into your junior and senior years, the graduate students (and possibly, graduate courses) will become more and more interesting to you–you will never be the most “advanced” person around. There will be a ton of visiting scholars coming through to give talks and enrich the mix.”</p>
<p>So if this is true, then the Princeton music faculty must think VERY poorly of the education offered by the Ivies. Or, have had REALLY bad experiences mentoring their own undergraduate students (none of whom has been accepted to the graduate program in six years.)</p>
<p>(My d. teaches them - if you’d like to know more about her experience, PM me privately - I neither want to be provocative nor inflammatory.)</p>
<p>Ok, so which is it - the 4.0 CSF student or the 3.5 Stanford student - if they have the same MCAT test score - which one gets the med school spot?</p>
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<p>YaleGradandDad - Your perspective (as I’ve edited it above) is held by many students attending schools of which you’ve likely never heard. It’s nice to feel fond of one’s alma mater, but your screen name compels me to quote this story that 4everamom shared here on CC in May 2009: </p>
<p>“There is an 85 year old man who lives at my mother’s retirement community which includes retired doctors, past presidential advisors , authors, whom I am sure several hold PHD’s. My mother tells me everyone laughs about the fact that within 5 minutes of conversing with this gentleman, he will let you know he attended Harvard. Is that more important than what he has accomplished in his life?”</p>
<p>I think the fact that the top 20 medical programs have a sizeable percentage of students from the ivies and so forth is not because the school’s name means something to the med school per se, but rather that the ivies because of their brand attract some seriously incredible students, who will major in science or engineering and do other incredible things, get incredible MCATS and so forth…the ivies because they are so competitive and have a worldwide brand, get a large percentage of hyper students, along with the overwhelming majority that are still incredible but not at this level (probably top 1-2% of the school are like this, the other 98% merely incredible <em>lol</em>). Whereas a good public college or another school might have very few, maybe some fraction of 1%, who are in this league…but that fraction are as bright as the top kids at the ivies, and assuming they study in difficult programs at those other schools, they can be among the 65% who aren’t from any ivy or similar program…</p>
<p>My point being that if a kid could be one of the ‘elite’ at an ivy, among the 2% at the hyper level there, or could be in the .01% at a hyper level at a good public, and get into a top 20 med program. The question that should be asked is why kids from ivies are over represented at the top 20 med schools, is it because the admissions people see Yale or Princeton, or see a kid at Yale or Princeton who majored in science, did research and had a GPA of 4.0 and an MCAT a supercomputer couldn’t touch? Likewise, if a kid goes to a school not in this league, but majors in EE, has a 4.0, does research, has blow out MCATS as good or better then the ivy kid, are they going to turn him/her down because they didn’t go to an ivy? In effect that is assuming that the ivy name in of itself means something, when it is what student does at the ivy or another school that does. This isn’t certain firms, like investment banking firms, where the schnooks running the show went to Ivies and only will look at Ivy league grads, and in fact will often take ivy league grads who didn’t really burn anything out because they went to an ivy…there, the argument is true IME…but that is a very small, closed world…</p>
<p>My point being if the kid is a good enough student where they could get into an Ivy and be one of the ‘upper part of the upper bell curve’ that ivy students are, then he could be a brainiac elsewhere and show his stuff and get in. The only factor might be that at an ivy, because there would be more students in the out there league, it might be more stimulating then let’s say a good state U where the population of rocket scientists is pretty small, but if the kid is that motivated and that good a student, they probably won’t miss that part IMO.</p>
<p>If going to an ivy is going to put the family into serious debt (or the kid) and he would be an exceptional student anywhere (assuming he went to a competitive school and majored in something rigorous), why take the risk? It isn’t that an ivy or other elite school isn’t a great experience or a great school, it is is it really worth that kind of monkey on their back? For most people, that is a lot of money, and for a kid wanting to be a doctor it is a lot, given that it can be years before the serious money starts coming in.</p>
<p>dntw8up:</p>
<p>Your inference that my screen name is evidence of my supporting a top tier undergraduate education in order to brag about it is misplaced. I chose that screen name because this is specifically a college forum and it does convey useful perspective to those who read my posts. As a student and even as an adult I often tell people I went to school in “Connecticut” because one is quickly judged when you say you go/went to Yale. </p>
<p>To the poster who said there FIL/BIL with Harvard MBAs didn’t think it was worth it to pay for a prestige undergraduate degree, again the implication in that statement is that the MBA matters and the undergraduate degree only gets you there. It would be a shame to waste four incredible years defining their value only so far as they got you in a job or a professional school. I guess I value “education” just for its own sake.</p>
<p>Finally, musicprnt states:</p>
<p>The only factor might be that at an ivy, because there would be more students in the out there league, it might be more stimulating then let’s say a good state U where the population of rocket scientists is pretty small, but if the kid is that motivated and that good a student, they probably won’t miss that part IMO.</p>
<p>Are you really thinking these high caliber students of ivy league (or equivalent LAC/Stanford/MIT/U of C, etc.) caliber won’t miss the stimulating environment of being surrounded by similar kids if they go to a State U.? This is exactly why I think it is reasonable to take on the additional debt. Long after the debt is paid this kid has those four years surrounded by amazing peers and he can never get those years back with all the extra money in his pocket at age 65.</p>
<p>The average physician salary is over $200K. Some specialists have average salaries more than twice that. You earn this much right out of residency training unless you are trying to start your own solo practice. Maybe a $100K of additional education debt to become a school teacher is a poor idea but it is reasonable for a physician who doesn’t need to settle for a cheaper option when he can get into his dream prestige university. Would I trade four years at Yale for four years at SUNY Binghamton in order to have an extra $100K in my net worth right now assuming I had the same medical school and career opportunities? Not a chance.</p>
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<p>YaleGradandDad-</p>
<p>You don’t seem to understand that the passion you feel for your undergraduate institution – the fact that you would not trade the four years you spent there to attend a different school, even if you would end up in the same med school and have the same career opportunities – is exactly how most students feel about their undergraduate institution, even students at SUNY Binghamton. </p>
<p>Further, it is inaccurate – and condescending – to suggest that ivy league schools have some sort of monopoly on intellectually stimulating environments. My spouse and I have undergraduate degrees from schools you consider “ivy league caliber,” and we could afford to pay for our kid’s college education without aid, but our kid turned down your alma mater for a full academic scholarship at a small, unfamiliar college filled with intellectually stimulating peers. Obviously that is not the choice my spouse and I made as young adults, but there is no reason for us to assume that our educational path was the best, or that other paths will necessarily have less favorable outcomes.</p>
<p>It’s interesting that you frequently say you went to school “in CT” so as to avoid being “judged” by the name of your school; my kid is applying to PhD programs in one of the sciences and is not applying to any ivy league schools precisely because there are a lifetime of more meaningful things with which my kid would like to be associated, and those associations often seem to end up overshadowed when one’s terminal degree is from an ivy league institution. </p>
<p>My point is that you are happy with your educational choices, and most others are equally as happy with their educational choices, so there is no need to denigrate the intellectual atmosphere in academic communities you have never experienced. It’s okay to say you followed a particular academic path, are pleased with the result, and that you do not know much about other educational paths.</p>
<p>Maybe someone’s mentioned it already but - the OP should keep in mind that a significant number of ‘premed’ students end up no longer pursuing the premed courses and sometimes switching majors and never actually go to med school yet would still be stuck with the debt but possibly in a career that doesn’t pay highly enough to repay the loans reasonably. There’s a lot that can change in one’s perspective from HS to a year or 2 into college. Sometimes it just takes an o-chem class or higher level math class to convince the student they don’t really want to continue down the premed path. Just being exposed to other majors they find more interesting can convince many to change direction. </p>
<p>Sometimes the choice of major can be more fleeting than the debt incurred whether they finish the major or not.</p>
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<p>But there’s another side to this, too. The former pre-med student who goes straight into the workforce after graduation might actually benefit more from the prestige school because of the better job recruiting opportunities it offers. And because the student would not be going on to medical school, he/she would not be stuck with double debt (debt for both undergraduate and medical school education). It’s the avoidance of that double debt that’s the main reason for compromising prestige as an undergraduate if the student is contemplating medical school.</p>
<p>My son has a couple of friends who turned down the Ivies for undergrad to take National Merit offers (full tuition and honors housing, among the other goodies) at a large state university. Best decision they could have ever made. They will graduate at the top of their class with near perfect GPAs. They have done extensive research and worked in the labs. They have gotten an outstanding education … and they will graduate with little or no debt. My son did the same thing – take that NM offer in exchange for little or no debt. He plans to go to grad or law school. He does not feel his education has been compromised. On the other hand, if he had taken an offer to a prestigious school, he would have debt and maybe fewer opportunities than he has had in his first two years.</p>
<p>dnyw8up:</p>
<p>I think you are losing sight of the OP’s question and how it relates to my responses.</p>
<p>The OP started out:</p>
<p>Basically it boils down to this:
Is it worth attending Carnegie Mellon, Cornell, or Northwestern (his top choices) at the expense of accruing more than 110K in personal debt, not to mention the 100K expense from the family, or is it better to swallow the bitter pill of college admissions and attend an honors program at a state college like UW Madison, Georgia Tech, or McGill University while taking a heavy courseload to make the most of lax credit standards at public universities, graduating early and hopefully going on to a top medical school? </p>
<p>This is not about my “condescending” attitude on the superiority of “my” educational choice. Had the very high achieving brother of the OP wanted to attend the local state flagship because he was not ready to move that far from home but hoped it would not tank his chances to attend a top medical school I would show support and encouragement, period. Rather, the question appears to be should he settle for cheaper options which he describes as not his top choices and to rush through his undergraduate years to save money since there is not value in investing in his first choice undergraduate school. I have clearly stated my opinion on that earlier. Some (most) seem to think because of the additional education debt of medical school that this is a ridiculous option, I think that precisely because he will be a highly paid physician he can afford the luxury of not settling for the “bitter pill of college admissions now”.</p>
<p>A common question I’m asked when considering treatment options is “what would you do if you were in my shoes”? Take 100 of my mid-career peers who attended top 25 undergraduate schools and ask if they would again financially invest in their college education given the option to get a free merit scholarship at a lower tiered school or a state school if they could be assured they would be at the same place in their career and I strongly believe they would answer the same as I have. Maybe you think everyone has passion for their school and this is a worthless question. I see this as cutting to the essential question, however. Would you rather have the extra money saved or do you value what you spent as an undergraduate to go to your first choice option. This same question very well may be answered differently by professionals with less earnings ability. I do agree with UCSD dad above about the significant number of premed students that bail ship after a semester or two of college. I would be fully comfortable telling the OP that yes you can manage that extra debt to go to your dream school and there is value to investing in your undergraduate education irrespective of where you end up in medical school but you might wish you had settled for the “bitter pill” if your career options change and you have to struggle to pay off the loans.</p>
<p>*My son has a couple of friends who turned down the Ivies for undergrad to take National Merit offers (full tuition and honors housing, among the other goodies) at a large state university. Best decision they could have ever made. They will graduate at the top of their class with near perfect GPAs. *</p>
<p>Which suggests they have easily outclassed their peers since they are so far above the norm at that state school. Of course those schools wouldn’t offer those free rides to attract students who were not heads and shoulders above the rest of their admits. When you talk about surrounding yourself with intellectual peers that is a big compromise to save money. Perhaps 100% of your academic and social life is within an “honors college” to make up for it.</p>
<p>*…if he had taken an offer to a prestigious school, he would have debt and maybe fewer opportunities than he has had in his first two years. *</p>
<p>Most people would say that those “prestigious” colleges offer more opportunities both as a student and perhaps as a graduate.</p>
<p>Isn’t all this sort of putting the cart before the horse? Yes, the EFC number doesn’t make the financial picture look that great. But, since I’m assuming the OP’s brother is a senior applying this year, not only does he not have any tangible numbers for financial aid, he likely doesn’t really have any idea where he will be accepted. So apply, see where you get accepted, look at the costs and FA packages, see if there are any creative options to reduce the cost or debt, and make the decision based on the specifics.</p>
<p>Unless of course you’re afraid that if he gets accepted to NW the temptation to attend will be too much to resist, no matter what the debt.</p>
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<p>I agree with you about opportunities as a graduate (although the opportunities for the graduate of a flagship state school are usually pretty good in that state – we’re not talking about third-tier schools here). I’m not so sure about the opportunities during college. </p>
<p>I know of several young people who could have attended top private universities who accepted merit scholarships to flagship state schools instead. Because they are among the best students at their universities, they are welcomed whenever they apply for research or independent study opportunities (they may even be courted by professors for such things). They can easily become undergraduate TAs if this appeals to them. Because state schools are generous about accepting AP credits, they entered with virtually all of their requirements outside their major completed, which gave them enormous freedom – to participate in multiple study abroad or internship programs, for example, or to double major in wildly unrelated fields, or to graduate in three years, or to get both a bachelor’s and a master’s degree in four years.</p>
<p>At a top private school, there would likely be considerably less scheduling freedom, and some of the opportunities (for research or independent study, for example), might not be available as early in a student’s college career or at all, if the student’s grades are not at the top of the class.</p>
<p>*Ok, so which is it - the 4.0 CSF student or the 3.5 Stanford student - if they have the same MCAT test score - which one gets the med school spot? *</p>
<p>Bay…it’s not that simple…there are other factors…</p>
<p>Is the 3.5 GPA because of a C in American History and a B in British Lit? Then, maybe his 3.5 is not a big deal. However, if he got Bs and Cs in Orgo I and II, that could be a problem if he also didn’t do well on the Orgo questions on the MCAT. </p>
<p>Also, what has each student been doing in his/her spare time? Has one been shadowing doctors while the other one hasn’t? Is one a URM and the other isn’t?</p>
<p>I think there was a Duke student here on CC that got a C in one of his Orgo classes, but he aced the orgo sections on the MCAT. He thinks that’s why he got into med school. </p>
<p>Bay…you seem to be laboring under the idea that the Stanford kid must be smarter than the CSUF kid…and that may not be true at all. There are good reasons why a smarter kid could be at a CSU.</p>
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<p>No, not at all. In fact, I’m mentally picturing the same student attending each school, with a slightly different gpa outcome, to understand which would be the better choice for pre-med. I admit I’m a little blown away by the idea that med schools would consider a CSF education equivalent to a Stanford education.</p>
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I don’t think they necessarily consider them equivalent. THey probably take into account all the factors, including the currciulum of the UG institution.</p>
<p>I guess I would ask, if the Stanford UG preparation blows away the CSUF preparation, how come the Stanford grad in your example didn’t dominate in the MCAT? And I ask this as devil’s advocate, because I’m not a big standardized test fanatic.</p>
<p>In the end when making the admission decision, you’re comparing one student to one other student, not one entire student body to another entire student body. If you were doing the latter, I think the Stanford student body overall would have the edge.</p>
<p>You’ll probably find far more grade inflation at Stanford than at CSUF. There was an article in “Inside Higher Education” posted here some months ago which indicated that GPA averages at the prestige privates to be up to half a point higher than at the state u’s. There will likely be more “weed out” at the state universities, and they are far more likely to grade on a curve.</p>
<p>In short, it might be far more difficult for a pre-med to secure a 3.5 at CSUF than at Stanford. But even assuming otherwise, the star student in an honors program at a place like CSUF is likely to have far more opportunities - internships, research opportunities, faculty support and mentoring than the middling student at Stanford.</p>
<p>In an honors college at a place like CSUF, the students will, on average, be as bright as those at Stanford. There will be no legacies, no football players (and yes, some Stanford football players are really smart), no folks recruited for their tennis or golf skills, no students who got in because of large family donations.</p>
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<p>In my scenario, the Stanford student and CSUF student are the same person, so this student is phenomenal to begin with (Stanford admit). I threw in the assumption that he would garner a higher (perfect) gpa at CSUF (my bias that CSUF must be less competitive), but this kid is brilliant, so his MCAT is the same coming out of either school. Isn’t this really what OP is asking? Many people are arguing that the undergrad doesn’t matter for med school, so I’m trying to reduce the analysis down to my comprehension level (lol).</p>
<p>(Cross-posted with mini who says CSUF isn’t less competitive than Stanford. That blows me away too.)</p>