Is compromising prestige for less debt smart for a premed?

Parent Cafe
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<p>A bit off-topic, but here in PA it is not unheard of for students who are full-pay to “settle” on schools such as those mentioned by OP as “prestigious”, if they do not get into Penn State Schreyer or get a full-tuition merit scholarship from Pitt. And, of course, there are others who pass up Schreyer or full-tuition at Pitt to go elsewhere, for a better fit. </p>

<p>In any case, I would not want my own child taking on that large a debt-load for undergrad and grad no matter what the projected earnings, because so much in life can be unpredictable, especially when projecting many years into the future. Many parents do tell children ahead of time, though, that if they go the expensive route for undergrad the parents will not be financing grad school or professional school.</p>

102

<p>I might be sorry to comment here but …</p>

<p>I was glad that mini pointed out the grade inflation that typically exists at, whatever prestigious schools we are talking about. With the exception of Princeton. A good grade point, especially in sciences, has a great deal of meaning coming from a State school.</p>

<p>I would also like to point out that not everyone can afford a prestigious school, like Stanford. I know they have wonderful financial aid for some families it isn’t enough, especially for someone considering medical school. The medical schools know this. If they were to assume the best and the brightest come from the best schools they would miss some truly gifted students from the State schools.</p>

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<p>Definitely. There are tons of smart, motivated students who choose to not to attend one of the most prestigious schools for all kinds of reasons, and I’m sure they do just as well in life as if they have gone to Harvard or Princeton, because they’ll always successfully grab whatever opportunity comes in their way and make the best out of it.</p>

<p>But at the same time I just want to point out that it’s not that easy getting As at top schools as some people on this thread seem to think. Everyone at a top school was the top of their class, if not their region or state, before they came to college, and even in classes in which you’re not graded on a curve you’re still judged against the quality of work of fellow students.</p>

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<p>Well, being a not-strong student at a school that’s similar to Stanford, I can attest that the research opportunities offered here are simply phenomenal------I found the opportunity to work in a lab only two weeks into freshman year, and I doubt I would have fared the same even as a top student at another college like CSUF.</p>

<p>v This is so depressing. I must be failing horribly.</p>

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<p>“With the exception of Princeton.”</p>

<p>My d. teaches and grades exams/papers at Princeton. It’s not an exception (or, if so, barely.) Lots of talk, though.</p>

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<p>Take 100 of my mid-career peers who attended top 25 undergraduate schools and ask if they would again financially invest in their college education given the option to get a free merit scholarship at a lower tiered school or a state school if they could be assured they would be at the same place in their career and I strongly believe they would answer the same as I have.</p>

<p>This is a meaningless scenario. When you and your “mid-career peers” were going to your elite private undergrads, the difference in price between those elites and their state schools was not equivalent to a nice, new car (for each year!). </p>

<p>Many people can go to their state flagship for $20k per year (or less!), but to go to an elite it can cost $50k+. $30k per year for 4 years is the equivalent of 4 nice new cars. That kind of difference didn’t exist in the 70s/80s when your mid-career peers were in college.</p>

<p>Your peers also did not enter their careers with anything close to the undergrad debt (and probably med school debt) that you’re talking about. Therefore, their answers would not reflect reality.</p>

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<p>After reading this thread today, I have to wonder if, as a patient, one gets more well rounded care from a debt free doctor than a debt burdened doctor. I would hate to think I would be encouraged to undergo an expensive procedure in lieu of a “wait and see” approach because a large loan payment was loaming.</p>

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<p>Careers in medicine are no walk-in-the-park financially.</p>

<p>Do a thought experiment. Make believe two people begin with $220,000k. One decides to become a doctor, one a nurse. The nurse gets into the community college program, which costs her $5,000 a year, and after her first year, she works as an LPN, and after two years, gets a job as an RN. RNs are in huge demand around here, with beginning salaries at the hospital around $55k with full benefits. Some specialties around here higher. With overtime, my wife, a hospice nurse with three years experience, makes much more than that. (In major cities, salaries seem to be between $85-$110k for experienced hospital nurses. But it doesn’t matter for purposes of this exercise, as long as she isn’t going into more debt, and can, somewhere down the line, buy a house.) The remaining $205,000 is invested at an average return of $8% of the next 20 years, and this is independent of any additional savings she has while working.</p>

<p>The would-be doc spends the $220k on undergrad education. Then takes out $280k in loans for the next four years of med school, and then breaks even over the next four in internships and residencies (but doesn’t pay off any of the loans, which accrue at between 8.5% and 11% interest). Maybe another two years for a specialty? Then if she sets up her own practice, maybe another $250k loan. No house! After 25 years, who is ahead?</p>

<p>This, of course, is what drives docs into high-paying specialties, which increasingly less meaningful day-to-day contact with patients. I have no idea what health reform or Medicare reform will mean for that equation. </p>

<p>But I do know it means one better be sure that one wants to be a doc at all. And it means that if you want to have any real freedom as a doc before ages 45-50, debt is a real enemy. Repeat the exercise above, only instead of starting with $220k, make believe that both the future nurse and the future doc start with nothing.</p>

<p>Collegeshopping - your cynicism (if it is that) is justified. The entire problem with Medicare these days comes from the fact that it is “fee-for-service”. Yes, docs complain that they are paid so little they lose on every case. They just make it up in volume! (LOL!)</p>

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<p>“The would-be doc spends the $220k on undergrad education. Then takes out $280k in loans for the next four years of med school, and then breaks even over the next four in internships and residencies.” </p>

<p>What I see mostly around here is the would-be-doc’s parents pay.
The rich get richer, as it were. Or, perhaps they think of it as investing in a form of retirement plan.</p>

<p>In any event that changes some of your numbers, from the doc’s perspective.</p>

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<p>*
What I see mostly around here is the would-be-doc’s parents pay.*</p>

<p>Yes, there is some of that going on. And, it’s because of that, I even more strongly advise against big undergrad loans for students who don’t have such generous parents. I think it would be frustrating for a doctor in his 30s who is burdened with huge undergrad + med school debts to see his colleague physicians with manageable debt being able to move on with their lives.</p>