<p>Interresteddad, a good point about calling the admissions office. I will say this, without naming names, all of the coaches that my son and I dealt with were very honest about their role in the admissions process -- from telling him he was "in" to telling him that it was an "admissions decision" but he was being supported. I know that a number of coaches are not honest about the process, but we had the good fortune of not being involved with them.</p>
<p>I will also add that I have gotten clearer, more honest info from some coaches than from the adcoms. </p>
<p>At some schools it COULD be a disadvantage to apply as a tagged athlete. Many times those apps are segregated from the general population and are decided in a meeting between a designated admissions officer and the athletic director. Those kids who are not picked in that meeting are often then thrown back into the general pool for consideration. Many adcoms are resentful of those kids who had some special designation and if there are issues between a particular coach and the adcoms, it could make a difference, though it really should not. The same kid, had he gotten his app in early for consideration may have been accepted as an admissions decision. </p>
<p>If your kid is a top pick in a sport, going the athletic recruit route could be a breeze, but for many whose kids are not, it is not an easy process. It is important that you do not let that aspect of the admissions process take over. I have seen kids who are so focused on getting the best deal and best team that they end up in schools that are not really good matches for them. Sometimes that full ride doesn't mean much at some of those schools either. One young lady I knew from several years ago went to U of Kentucky, which is a fine flagship school, but not one that would have been considered at all except they wanted her for the sport and were willing to give her a full ride. Well, she could have gotten that amount from a number of schools and I believe she traded some opportunities for a bit of "feel good and wanted" and the scholarship. Although the program is an important consideration for an athlete, given the time he spends with the team and doing the sport, it is also important to give the school the old "broken leg" test, as to whether you would want to be there if you were not on the team. That happens more than most people think it does.</p>
<p>Fair enough about the coaches. I would think that most probably would be honest. </p>
<p>I guess my point is to really understand the categories of athletic admits and to ask the right questions rather than making assumptions about what enthusiasm from a coach might ultimately mean.</p>
<p>My experience with my son this past fall with coaches tells me that most are honest but you need an interpretor sometimes to read between the lines. For example, we were told by one coach that son was "not one of the top recruits but that admissions would be aware that we wanted him". We were left wondering what that meant. We also found that the admission process itself is difficult to understand but you put athletic recruiting into the mix and it gets four times as difficult. I was further amazed at how you have to dig deep to find out the information you need to make informed decisions. CC was more helpful than GC. No way you can leave this process to a 17 year old to do on his own. In the end, S applied ED to Ivy. Fortunately, his academics are very strong (i.e. 1500, 800 Writing, very good EC's and essays, etc) so we will see how much a coach's support really means later this week.</p>
<p>P.S. Chris Lincoln's book "Playing the Game" was the most helpful for information.</p>
<p>D3 sports is an interesting question, one we've gone over before here. If coaches are flying out to see your daughter, it sounds like she's an impact player. And that can mean a lot, as ID posted. But the coach contact can make a difference at D3 schools, particularly the highly-selective ones, even if you're not a superstar.</p>
<p>My daughter was a highly competent, 4-year varsity athlete in several sports. Never the captain, never the star, but always a reliable performer who made a contribution to the team. Academically and stats-wise, she was way up there. Ivy coaches told her she wasn't good enough for a tip, and didn't need their admissions help anyway (correct, in most cases). D3, coaches on the other hand, wooed her extensively. Even at D3, she wasn't enough of an impact player to warrant a tip, but at small highly-academic schools, smart jocks and jockettes are sought-after for depth.</p>
<p>My daughter met ID's description of a "class 1" applicant, but I disagree that Williams accepts all such students. There is no question in my mind that the coach that kept calling her was feeling her out as to her intentions, and the fact that she was so positive toward Williams (as opposed to Dartmouth, Amherst, Middlebury, Brown, etc.) had an impact on her acceptance at Williams. The coach recently told me that s/he had made strong pitch for my daughter when contacted by the adcom around "early write" time, and said that the response had been that my daughter wasn't on "the list" for the team, but that she could make a serious contribution, and even if she didn't play for the team, she belonged at Williams just because she fit in (she had spent several overnights with team members--one of the real benefits you should take advantage of if your child is an athlete.) And, the coach said, she clearly wanted to go there.</p>
<p>Speedcoach, what is your son's sport? This thread is so interesting to me. My son is a hs junior and hopes to run for one of the top academic D1 or D3 schools..... We are waiting for track times and PSAT/SAT scores before filling out recruiting forms. Karen</p>
<p>I think my D is the reverse of yours. She's more of an "impact player" (depending on the specific school and how strong a team it is) but she's less of an academic star. I guess every school has its own recipe and it is always a subjective decision on the borderline cases.</p>
<p>She has never asked a coach point blank where she ranks on their "list"; totally not her style. (Plus, the "broken leg" test means she can't pick based on coach interest, only on her affinity for the school.) But on this decision, the coach <em>is</em> important, because a sport takes up many many hours each week and it would be terrible to have something that is supposed to be a joy turned into a pressure cooker or drudgery by the wrong coach. The team culture is really key. My D has felt that her HS coaches (mostly academic teachers) have not been the "coach of her dreams." She'd really like to have the experience of a great professional team leader helping her get to the next level in her sport, plus a happy connection on a personal level.</p>
<p>SBmom, I'm running out right now to one of my son's athletic events. But will comment more later. There was another thread not long ago that talked about this a lot....perhaps someone else will remember what it was. But if you want her to get to know the team culture, do it throught the coach....arrange overnights that way. It's a very special and different look at things. Gotta go.</p>
<p>KAREN: Son does not want me to disclose too much about his situation. What I can tell you is that you should be your child's advocate by researching as much as you can and give them the information to digest. Most important advice that I can give you is that your daughter make all the contacts personally with coaches. As much as you might want to get involved, stay away. Let your daughter e-mail, call and always talk to the coaches herself. Let the child/adult develop a rapport with a possible future coach. Coaches do not want to deal with obssesive parents. Your kids will also respect you more through this stressful process. </p>
<p>For son, school he chose was like his first love. He knew from the moment he met the coach and visited the school that it was were he wanted to be. All the other coaches and all the other schools he visited did not matter. Hopefully it will come through for him.</p>
<p>I agree that the coach and the team culture is a key part of the decision. I know a D1 soccer player (female) who was strongly "encouraged" to attend her school by her father. She is miserable and soccer takes up her entire life. As a high school star, it was a tough adjustment to be a freshman non-starter. She is a little over her head academically at this small, rigorous D1 school in Houston (gee, what could it be?).<br>
My son has the most awesome high school running coach there is, so we would expect a college coach of the same level. My son will be the one to make all contacts- he is already in email contact with one Ivy coach. I am mainly doing the research on the academics, tenure of the coaching staff etc.
Karen</p>
<p>If a coach supplied the admissions director with an applicants name (apparently the Admissions Director needed a list of students who would apply early decision to that college), what do you think the chances are of my D getting in. Of course, we told the coach we would apply ED</p>
<p>I won't supply the sport (since it is small), but her SATs are 1400 (720 M, 680 V), SAT II: Bio 710; US History 710; Writing II 640).</p>
<p>Her ECs are chock full of her sport, plus another sport (which she won't participate in in college).</p>
<p>Her Recommendations were outstanding (well, we got to read 2 of the three), and her essays were fantastic (OK...my opinion). My D has already received one of the highest scholastic awards from the state (which we just found out and e-mailed to the admiisions office).</p>
<p>So....anyone want to take a chance. By the way, I am talking about Princeton.</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>It is really hard to say. The way it usually works is that the coach provides his list to the athletic director with notes on who he needs the most along with SAT and gpa info. The athletic director then meets with the adcom who is the athletic liason, and they negotiate who is going to be accepted for the various teams. The problem is that you don't know where your athlete is listed on that list, and you don't know how much pull that particular sport may have at the school if it is not a mainstream sport. I know a phenomonal distance swimmer with 1500+ SAT1s, great grades who was deferred ED--he is now swimming for Harvard; he was accepted RD but his parents were quite upset as they were given the feeling that he was in at Princeton. I have seen this sort of thing happen several time. We went to state championships to watch our son perform but also to meet with a couple of college coaches. Well, one coach who was supposed to talk to us obviously had his eye on some other kids. But S did get accepted ---the coach we met was not the main coach making the final list and decision. Found out later that the kid that the coach we met was so highly touted was not accepted. Figure that one out.</p>
<p>We have the same problem. We do not know where son is on the list. Are 1500 SAT 1 and 800/790/710 SAT II's enough for top IVY? Maybe or maybe not? We are not even sure how long the list is and how many the adcom can "tip." We are all working in the dark on this one. Other applications are all ready to go, just in case. Hope for the best and be prepared for the worst.</p>
<p>Speedcoach, we are in similar situation. Back in October we were feeling somewhat confident but I now regard my mailman with a mixture of anticipation of dread and anticipation.</p>
<p>Like others, Dizzy-son wants to handle this on his own and has declined to contact the coach for reassurance of any kind. I pointed out to Dizzy-husband that I have spent more time in the last week on the phone assuring that my Christmas turkey is ordered than we have ascertaining whether S's college apps are in or checking regarding his status with the coach.</p>
<p>If the news is bad, it will be a scramble of a holiday. We were well aware that there was only one ED bullet to fire. S had a first choice and we tried to do our part to make sure it was being fired responsibly, but there is no sense of assurance in the situation. For all the discussion about the unfair advantage of recruited athletes, the concept of calling up the other coaches after a deferral is decidedly less appealing than the simple exercise of completing back-up applications in the case of a standard deferral.</p>
<p>Lighting candles....</p>
<p>Alot of people think that it is a piece of cake getting a recruited athlete into a college. And it can be if you lower your sights, as it would be for any student who does that. But selective college admissions is such that it does not work that way at all. And it never did for kids who are not at the top of the game. I was reading "My Losing Season" by Pat Conroy last year, a gift to my S2 at Christmas, and I was struck by his account of his recruitment process by the various schools as he was going from high school to college. Things have not changed much.</p>
<p>The problem is that the situation changes all of the time. Your kid may well be number 1 on the coach's list....until someone applies or calls with better stats both or either academically and game wise. My son was dumped for a more versatile teammate that the coach was able to wangle through admissions whereas with my son there was a distinct chance he could make it in the general admissions pool with the sport as tip not a done deal. And that did end up happening, but it still left a bad taste in our mouths. And that was one of the happy endings we had. He was outright rejected from some schools where a better prospect came up or the program was disbanded. He was waitlisted where they changed coaches, and where the coach just did not have the clout with admissions for that particular sport.</p>
<p>Generally, for ivies, likely letters have been sent in October, or the coach has called the players who are definite ins. The decisions have been made at this point. Lacking the two scenarios, the player was thrown back in the admissions pool with a sports tag and left to the mercy of the adcoms who may or may not give the tag heavy consideration. A different process from the athlete whose admissions was negotiated on the spot between a admissions officer and athletic director. At least, that was my take on it. At the schools where he was definitely in, the coaches pretty much let him know ahead of time.</p>
<p>jamimom, is your knowledge specific to a certain sport or is it across the board? The instructions S has received are different than what you report, so it makes me wonder if he has been relegated to a different tier than was originally promised by the coach.</p>
<p>Agree. Dizzymom! I asked Son if he wanted to e-mail coach but he said he wanted to wait for decision like everyone else. I also agree that it would be strange calling back other coaches after a deferrel but I guess these guys are used to it. Does anyone have information about the RD recruiting process. We were always lead to believe that you had to apply ED to get coaches' support to mean anything. Is this true or have I once again not find out about another part to this process?</p>
<p>I noticed that the link did not open when I tried it but the article in full can be found at <a href="http://www.thedartmouth.com%5B/url%5D">www.thedartmouth.com</a></p>
<p>Thursday, May 13, 2004</p>
<p>In admissions, many get 'special' attention </p>
<p>Minorities, legacies and elite high schools -- all seem to benefit during the admissions process. With acceptance rates above average for these groups, is the average well-rounded applicant facing an uphill climb? Yes and no.</p>
<p>But acceptance rates are not high only for these groups. Athletes and students with 800 SAT scores also gain admission at a disproportionately high rate, Dean of Admissions Karl Furstenberg said. Rates are also higher for students with exceptional essays and above-4.0 GPAs. With so many people applying for admission at one of the top 10 schools in the country, it takes a combination of many factors to get that thick envelope come April.</p>
<p>Athletic admissions statistics are not released by the admissions office. Some speculate that athletes -- particularly those for big sports -- are given the highest preference of all. This does not appear to be the case at Dartmouth, although athletes do benefit from having a lobbyist in their coach. Coaches submit ranked lists of their recruited athletes to the admissions office. The admissions office then reviews the applications, taking into account the applicant's athletic talent and coach's recommendation.</p>
<p>"Athletic talent works in the same way other kinds of talent do. The only difference is it's a much more organized and structured recruiting process and that's a function of the NCAA and the Ivy League rules," Furstenberg said. "They tell us who they want, but there are no guaranteed number of slots."</p>
<p>But even with the ability to submit a list, some coaches expressed frustration with how little say they really have.</p>
<p>"How much clout do I have? Minimal," men's swimming coach Jim Wilson said. "If you look at my SAT scores and compare to the average SAT scores, my kids may be getting in with a 1450 instead of a 1460."</p>
<p>Wilson did, however, speculate that some of the "higher-profile sports like football may be getting a little more help."</p>
<p>Coaches are given little feedback from the admissions office before submitting their lists, according to Wilson. "I'm shooting blind," he said, adding that other schools, even in the Ivy League, are actually more lenient with athletic admissions.</p>
<p>"Some schools will say 'if he has this GPA and this SAT score were going to let him in.' Our admissions doesn't do that," Wilson said.</p>
<p>Michele Hernandez '89, who worked in the Dartmouth admissions office in the mid-1990s and is currently a private college counselor, concurred.</p>
<p>"Dartmouth actually has higher standards for athletes than most schools," she said. "Many athletes that are walking straight into Harvard couldn't get into Dartmouth."</p>
<p>While athletic talent can bolster an application, it does not replace other criteria for admission, according to Furstenberg. If coaches do not find well qualified applicants to put on their list, they risk not getting enough players that year.</p>
<p>"If the coaches say we need nine soccer players this year, but we only think six of them are qualified, that's what they get," he said. "All of the decisions are made here; the only person at the institution who can admit someone is me."</p>
<p>I guess it's all a crap shoot. I really do get annoyed at the posts under Princeton who seem to say "athletes" get a break. If they got a break, why would we all be sweating it out and reading other stories of atheltes who didn't get a break.</p>
<p>If my D does it in as an athlete, well, she has to work at the sport for four years. I'd like to hear some kid who just gets in by chance complain about that. While they are sitting in their rooms studying, my D will be "working" for the team.</p>
<p>If she doesn't get into Princeton, I don't know if we are going to go the athletic route at other colleges. With her stats, she can get into many top schools just being herself, and she can always do her sport either club or individual tournaments. </p>
<p>The waiting is taking its toll on us parents!</p>
<p>Our experience with athletes at Princeton echoes what Jamimom describes in terms of contact from coaches advising students that "they're in". One friend in Tennis and one in Soccer both had this happen. Both athletes were heavily recruited, by Princeton and other schools, and are near the top in their sports nationally so perhaps that made a difference. One has graduated and had a great experience at Princeton. The other is currently a freshman after having deferred a year in order to play in the 2003 Women's Soccer World Cup last fall.</p>
<p>One interesting story I heard about a recruited athlete this past summer from a friend was that her neighbor's daughter was given a great scholarship because she was a superb athlete. She attended the school but wasn't happy and didn't return after the Christmas break. The school has since been after the parents to pay the value of the girl's semester at said school, saying that the scholarship was void since she didn't stay the entire year, and thus they were responsible. I'm assuming this was in some sort of contract signed but it was something I'd never heard of happening before.</p>