<br>
<p>The other is currently a freshman after having deferred a year in order to play in the 2003 Women's Soccer World Cup last fall.</p>
<br>
<p>Wow ... talk about an athletic hook!</p>
<p>Yes! She's a fantastic soccer player but also a great student academically. She and my D started playing soccer together at age 5 so we've had the pleasure and privilege of watching her play for many years. She was the Ivy rookie of the year. :)</p>
<p>They had an incredible season this year and sadly lost in the NCAA semi's last week. They're the first Ivy team to reach the final four of a 64 team NCAA tournament and the first Ivy League women's soccer team to reach the final four. They also won more games than any other Ivy women's soccer team ever! Quite a season.</p>
<p>I am starting to believe that the sports hook is not really much better than any high-level performance in any other EC-- unless you are truly incredible (at least ranked in your state) AND also going for a school that actually reserves slots. Even then, at the top D III LACs there's only so much "give" because they don't want kids who truly can't keep up with the academic pace.</p>
<p>Also-- not every D III school is the same re slots or picks (at least in my D's sport.) We have heard a variety of different coach speeches ranging from, "I have no picks" to "I will put you at the top of my list and I will meet privately with athletic liason & adcom to push you." Even then "top of list" is vague; how many of our kids could honestly call three or four schools "tops on their list?"</p>
<p>Perhaps everyone makes assumptions about how much sports can help because the stereotype of the "dumb jock" is so ubiquitous, and because <em>certain</em> schools really drastically compromise their academic standards for <em>certain</em> sports. I just think this is less widespread than most of us may think.</p>
<p>The actual sports advantages for a non-football, non-D1 athlete, in a school without a nationally ranked team in his or her sport: </p>
<p>(1) Whatever your level of academic achievement, the adcom knows you have managed to get to that level despite a huge amount of time devoted to an outside endeavor-- this shows you can balance, budget time, etc. My D's sport is 15-20 hours per week; she misses a lot of class because she travels for matches (often leaving school at 9 am to make a 3 or 4 hour drive for 2 pm matches!) </p>
<p>(2) You have a good entree (for info on the school, overnights, names of current students to email questions etc) via the coach. This is to the student's benefit in discerning what the school culture is, rather than in boosting admission odds. </p>
<p>(3) you have a specific advocate because a coach can endorse & verify your ability to add to the team, though this may be no different than a conductor endorsing a first violinist or a science prof endorsing a top summer program participant.</p>
<p>(4) You <em>MAY</em> have an additional boost if your are one of the top two or three prospectives a coach is really pushing for, though this advantage has radically different meanings depending on the sport and the school.</p>
<p>From the Dartmouth Online</p>
<p>Ivy League reconsiders role of athletics in admissions
By Karla Kingsley, The Dartmouth Staff </p>
<p>Recent examination of policies surrounding admissions and athletics have prompted some schools in the New England Small College Athletic Conference to make changes, and Ivy League schools are also considering modifications.</p>
<p>Though Ivy League schools haven't yet made changes, the role that athletics plays in admissions is a persistent topic of discussion.</p>
<p>Both Karl Furstenberg, Dartmouth's dean of admissions, and Jeffrey Orleans, the executive Director of the Ivy League, believe that the Ivies have been doing a good job balancing athletics and academics, but Furstenberg anticipated that changes may come soon.</p>
<p>"We have been working on this for a long time. We aren't perfect, but we know how to do it. We are trying to keep our own house in order ... We think we are walking the right road," Orleans said.</p>
<p>Furstenberg said he could not be sure exactly what changes may be instituted, but he said that administrators were looking at two areas of possible change -- the recruitment and admissions of athletes and the experience athletes have after being admitted.</p>
<p>"They are thinking about ways to be reasonable about the time commitment ... with schedules, practices and travel," Furstenburg said. There is "a lot of discussion about ways of limiting the number of recruited athletes in different sports. Where that [will come] out I honestly don't know. I think there may be some guidance in limiting out-of-season practice and travel."</p>
<p>According to Orleans, "This is not a new issue for us. We have been reviewing these issues and thinking about them for a long time," he said. "The NESCAC are getting organized in a way that they have not been before ... we have been organized in this way for a long time, 25 years."</p>
<p>All the Ivy League schools do recruit athletes, and according to Karl Furstenberg, "most of the students who are playing most of our varsity sports that seem to be contributing at a high level have probably been recruited."</p>
<p>But Furstenberg emphasized that athletes, recruited or not, have to go through the same admissions process as all other students. He explained that coaches recruit athletes and work with the admissions office to help gauge what each student could bring to the College.</p>
<p>"Having a coach say 'this is a very good athlete' certainly makes a difference on that aspect of the admission ... but [we have to ask] is this student going to take advantage of the school?" Orleans said.</p>
<p>Furstenberg played down the influence coaches have on the admission of a particular athlete.</p>
<p>"Coaches have input into admissions decisions ... but all the decisions are made entirely in the admissions office," he said. "When we evaluate students, the focal point really is on the academic side."</p>
<p>Administrators compared athletic ability to other extracurricular talents that help students gain admissions. </p>
<p>Tom Parker, Amherst's Dean of Admissions and Financial aid explained that with the current level of applicants, it is possible for elite schools to accept an entire class from the top one-half percent of SAT scores, but that "there are certain populations that just aren't there."</p>
<p>"To what degree are we going to depart from this la-la land of smart kids," Parker wondered, in order to have a diverse student body?</p>
<p>Furstenberg mentioned that in some aspects, athletics compares to other activities in which students participate on campus, but he said athletics is easier to regulate.</p>
<p>At Dartmouth, he said, "there is more demand for your time ... that creates a certain amount of stress. A place like this has to think about those pressures when you add them up -- you guys are busy."</p>
<p>Of the current discussion going on in various forums, Furstenberg said, "Athletics is always being fine-tuned ... this might be a part of that continuing evolution."</p>
<p>The changes made to some NESCAC members' policies are partly a result of internal debates as well as a response to a recently published book, "The Game of Life," by James Shulman and William Bowen.</p>
<p>In the book, authors studied the role of athletics in Ivy League schools, concluding that in many cases the schools placed too much emphasis on athletics, admitting students whose couldn't measure up academically.</p>
<p>The "little three" of the NESCAC, Williams, Amherst and Wesleyan, decided to make the change simultaneously, reducing the number of "athletic admits" to each school from 96 to 66 over three years, according to Parker.</p>
<p>Parker explained Amherst's motivation for making the change. "We had gone through two swings of the pendulum. First, [there was] an under-emphasis, a lack of attention to athletes. The football program suffered grievously," he said. Then "they came back and over-compensated, taking too many kids that in retrospect should not have been admitted."</p>
<p>Parker explained that although athletic admits are given to students on the basis of athletic ability, these students are still held to high academic standards.</p>
<p>"Their SATs put them in the top six percent of kids going on to college," Parker said.</p>
<p>Although other NESCAC schools haven't made any changes yet, admissions directors said that the issue is constantly discussed throughout the conference.</p>
<p>"The admissions officers within the NESCAC schools are trying to develop a more common language, trying to be more like one another as we discuss these issues," Middlebury admissions director John Hanson said.</p>
<p>Hanson cited the results of a study that he had done. "I found that the percentage of athletes that were admitted was virtually the same" as non-athletes, he said. "We definitely look at academics first and foremost."</p>
<p>A number of recruited kids (non-scholarship) DO give up their sports in college. Some blatantly use the sport to get in, and then don't continue. If you don't get $$, there is no obligation to continue.
I think all these issues we are discussing vary from sport to sport/coach to coach. I read that if a school has a new coach in a sport and is trying to beef up the program (or keep the coach!) there might be additional slots for that sport.<br>
As for recruiting other than ED, I think many athletes do NOT go the ED route. I know a lot of runners who simply aren't ready to decide and want to get a senior year Footlocker time or even winter track times to see what additional schools might be interested. I know a young man who was a top runner fall of senior year, but not the best in the state. He didn't even make Footlocker finals. However, in the spring, after he committed to Rice, he managed to run the fast high school mile time in the country. All the big guys came around at that point. To his credit, he stuck with Rice where he is now a sophomore.<br>
Another thought- for the Ivys and strong academic LACs- I wonder if you are almost better off if you are NOT as strong an academic candidate? If the coach really wants you, it means he has to slot you higher. The 1500-1600 kids may be left to the mercy of the adcoms.
Karen</p>
<p>My experience was four years ago and not only is it sport specific, college specific, coach specific, any info you get is good only for the moment it is valid. The process is dynamic with personalities changing and priorities changing, so it is really hard to predict. Achange in the athletic director, adcoms, admissions director, a change in the wind can affect the process. But in general, many selective schools work the way I described. There are schools where the coach is strong enough and given enough leeway that he can "admit" the student on the sport as long as the stats are not too terrible, but those schools are rare and the talent is usually superb. There are those few kids that many schools fight for, and that is a whole different journey. When you are trying to get the best deal for your kid, it is not so easy. Johntreed.com has a great section on ivy football recruiting, the way it was done when my son was going through the athletic mill. Who knows if it is the same these days?</p>
<p>My son applied to 17 schools, all offering his sport. Most of the coaches were helpful and upfront. Many were more enlightening about the admission processes of the school than the adcoms. No one promised him anything. The biggest complaint I had was that when your kid is dropped from consideration or on the list, they did not let you know even if the reason was rather big news, like the coach leaving so maybe you could contact the new coach (we had to read about it in a sports journal), or that the program is being dropped at the school (again we read about it in the news). It's sort of like the old timey date where the guy says he'll call you and he doesn't. You hope and come up with reasons, maybe breakdown and call yourself and get some noncommital response before you figure out you were dropped. I compare finding out about the other player to seeing the guy with another girl--then you know what happened.</p>
<p>Athletes do have a considerable edge over the regular pool. In fact I would say a strong athletic hook could be the strongest hook. You are competing against the kids in your category, not the entire admissions pool, so you do have that advantage. It just is not necessarily the shoo in that many are led to believe it is.</p>
<p>They'll drop you from the list without telling you????</p>
<p>Yikes. Did NOT want to hear that. Thanks for the info. This could be a very busy holiday for the Dizzy-family...</p>
<p>Yep, just like the guy who never calls back.</p>
<p>Would either of you know how many kids might be on a coach's list to admissions. For example, if a coach is given 12 slots, does he submitted 24 names? Is there some formula or is it on an individual school's basis?. This is what always puzzled me.</p>
<p>Okay, I heard a really awful story once, don't know if it is true: a girl was invited on an official visit, but right before she came, a recruit who was higher on their list committed to them, so the girl was no longer going to be recruited. But the school didn't want to cancel the visit so they had her come anyway and told her af the END of the official visit. Talk about a terrible letdown. </p>
<p>It is nice in most cases to be a recruited athlete, but there are so many varieties of recruiting styles, so many different relationships between the athletic dept. and the adcom, I think that you just always have to be very cautious, and not celebrate until the admission letter or LOI is in hand. Best wishes to all.....</p>
<p>beware if your child is only being recruited by top academic institutions. The top ivy athletes are being recruited by other div1 schools. Most of these kids can go to other top athletic schools but choose to go to the ivy for obvious reasons. The top div3 athletes are all div1 caliber but choose to go to a smaller school. The top academic schools always send letters and make calls to lots of kids that have the grades to have a chance on their own,regardless of the level they play their sport at. If they get in, its a bonus to the coach to have a look at the kid, even if he ends up being cut. It is a free look for the coach but the child may be thinking all along he is a recruit. Remember, no money , no commitment. If you have no idea where you stand on a coaches list, more often than not it is lower than you might think---just the truth!
A true ivy league likely letter is given to a student who has a athletic financial offer on the table, and wants asurrence from the ivy that they will get in if they decline the money from another school. The ivys were losing too many kids that wanted to attend but didnt want to give up another offer to find out at a later date they did not get in.</p>
<p>I've known kids who have gone all ivy or highly selective D3 in their choices and are athletes. They have gotten likely letters without having to go through the squeeze play of another offer. But that is a quick way to get a written commitment from an ivy league school of one was not forth coming, and get a true read in their interest in you.</p>
<p>I just have a hard time believing that an established coach at an Ivy would tell an athlete and his/her parents that he/she is on the coach's 'short list' and then not follow through. </p>
<p>A friend of S's last year received a 'likely letter' because he was looking at a non-Ivy school that 'signed' athletes several weeks prior to the Ivy notification date, so the coach had a 'likely letter' sent as 'collateral' to reassure that athlete and his family that it was safe to pass up the other option. We weren't in that situation, as S was looking only at Ivy schools, so it didn't occur to us to ask about a likely letter, especially given the strong reassurance we received from the coach at the time. That was October, however, and we aren't feeling very assured right now...</p>
<p>Jamimom -- I would sure like to know what sport and what university your experience was with; it looks like you don't accept private messages though. Feel free to pm me if you want.</p>
<p>Has anyone noticed that this thread has had almost 2,000 views but only 57 replies? Someone out there must have more light to shed on this subject!</p>
<p>Good way to pass a few moments during the work day. One advantage of working at home office and not in real office. Dizzymom. I noticed some of your comments on the Pton board. Your son and mine could be the same kid. Son also perked interest of most ivys for his sport and academics as well like yours. He seems to be calm but Mom and Dad are anxious but hiding it well. Your experience matchs ours. Very reputable coach said he was on his list to admissions so we pressed it no further. Coach liked S and vice versa as a person as well. In my line of work, we do not trust anyone or anything so it has been a leap of faith to trust a coach. So I share your angst.</p>
<p>Dizzymom and Speedcoach, I am anxiously awaiting the results of your S's apps, too. I am a year behind you! Karen</p>
<p>Dizzymom, while you might not be able to "imagine" and Ivy league coach not following through, our family has experienced it. It happens, more at some Ivies than others, but trust me it happens. Indeed, the ONLY negative experiences we had with coaches was with the Ivies.</p>
<p>CD</p>
<p>We have had several enthusiastic calls and emails, though no official likely letters. Our sport is club at some schools, NCAA at others, but they all play each other & are all top 10-20 ranked in that sport, so they are comparable ability.</p>
<p>I will let ya'll know what our results are.</p>
<p>We had one public university offer a club sport "fast track" for her, then when they saw her stats, they said, oh she'll get in anyway, we don't need to fast track. Reading between the lines, it seemed they did not want to waste otheri "fast track" on some one who would be a slam dunk.</p>
<p>Another flagship public coach will be filling out additional forms and including recommendations the school normally does not accept or require. This coach said you basically get a second look at your file and the ability to include lots of extra goodies most people cannot include, so our high school sent a whole packet.</p>
<p>A top private coach also needed info to flag her app at admissions.</p>
<p>A top LAC also says they can help at admissions, with a personal request to have her file reviewed.</p>
<p>Another top private (ivy) had an unenthusiastic coach...nice guy, nice program, just not very helpful and could offer no assitance, we did not apply there.</p>
<p>Another top public did offer help at admissions, too. </p>
<p>So, we have seen many offers of help, but don't knwo how much pull they will ahve.</p>
<p>It is definitely more appealing to consider sending my kid to do her sport at a school where the coach at least acts enthusiastic up front about trying to do all they can to get her there!</p>
<p>None of the coaches have guaranteed admissions, but they have all said she has a great shot at it and the tag from them can only help. Some coaches have indicated more ability to help than others, so when we get results, we'll let you know for you juniors out there prepping for next year. BTW, DD is academically in the 25-50 range for those top schools, not a perfect SAT, but in the range, with 4.0 UWGPA, several APs, ranked in top group at small private school with National recognition in her sport, though, I swear with the tiny spaces allowed for entering all that, you can hardly fit it in on the application, so I do not know how they know all that, except through letters of recommendation....which are not considered at our state public unis!</p>
<p>concerneddad, I would like to know what 'not following through' meant in your experience. Jamimom described a fairly harrowing experience -- was yours like hers? </p>
<p>A friend of ours' S was initially an athletic recruit at P (different sport than my son) and the parents were left with a very bad feeling of no follow through, which, in their case, was apparently that the boy's academic standing did not match up with what the coach needed to place him on the 'short list'. I don't consider this so much lack of follow-through as part of the recruitment game. In our case, and perhaps Speedcoach's, there has been more of a commitment, although of course there is never an absolute guarantee. Given the fact that these kids have to say no to other very attractive options to make an ED commitment, it's stunning to think that the coaches play that fast and loose at that late stage of the game. I don't want to quote the coach in question here in terms of what was said to our son and my H on the phone, but it was about as close to a 'non-guarantee guarantee' as we thought one could expect. Perhaps we were incredibly naive. We'll find out soon enough...</p>
<p>Again, without naming names, S was told he was on the list, applied ED, was deferred, as was he not on the list. From there it got ugly until the Athletic Director personally called and apologized.</p>
<p>CD</p>