Is "fit" over-emphasized?

Parents Forum
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<p>


So did your D. continue with dance at her college?

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What percentage of students spend significant time off campus for a study abroad and semester-long internships? 2/3 of my D's junior class was "away.

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What does the percentage matter? The study abroad programs are available for anyone who wants them. Why would a parent or student looking at a college worry about what percentage of students take advantage of a particular program, other than making sure that they wouldn't be crowded out of something they didn't want? (And that's just a matter of asking some questions -- there doesn't seem to be any indication that these programs are particularly difficult to arrange for CSU students who want them.)

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But the notion that a private school's or LAC's fit is illusory reeks of sour grapes and a misplaced sense of egalitarianism.</p>

<p>There is a difference between exception and rule, possible and commonplace, good and spectacular.

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You aren't talking "fit". You are expressing your smug sense of superiority based on your perceptions prestige of your daughter's school. I made it clear in my previous post that I wasn't interested in getting into a debate over which school's program was "better" -- just pointing out that it was ignorant to claim that the public schools didn't offer various programs -- but you respond with put-downs and insults. All that demonstrates that aren't thinking about "fit" at all -- you just want to play the "my kid'ss college is better than your kid's" game. </p>

<p>Given that, according to you, your daughter didn't want to apply to UC Irvine as a safety because of disdain for other students applying there (*D considered having UC Irvine as her safety. Dropped it because the students from her high school applying there were the relative plodders<a href="post%20130">/i</a> -- it seems clear that your college search was driven by a sense of entitlement and elitism. (Certainly not by critical thinking or analysis, given the tortured logic of that rationale)</p>

<p>So I will amend my comments to add this observation:
"Fit" is often used as euphemism to mean something else entirely.</p>

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<p>Another question for TheDad -- you wrote: on the same scale, D's school should have sent...1/2 of an intern. And the internship program is for 5-1/2 months, not 2-1/2. Could you point me to info about Smith's Congressional internship program? I looked all over the Smith web site and couldn't find any such program, just various links to outside resources that Smith students could use. </p>

<p>I did find one thing that I thought was pretty funny on the Smith site, apparently a handout used to advise Smith students looking for government internships:
<a href="http://www.smith.edu/cdo/students/career/gap/government.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.smith.edu/cdo/students/career/gap/government.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>One part that I thought was funny was the fact that the very first, top of the list, item was:
[quote]
CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY: Government
Contact for all Fellowships: <a href="mailto:calstudies@csus.edu">calstudies@csus.edu</a>
Center for California Studies, 6000 J Street, Sacramento, CA 95819-6081, 916-278-6906, Fax: 916-278-5199

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</p>

<p>In addition to the CSU reference I thought it was interesting that California fellowship programs seemed to dominate the list. Clicking on links I learned that the other California fellowships listed were also affiliated with a CSU. </p>

<p>The other thing that I thought was funny was that when I scrolled down the page, I found that Illinois also has a program: "the new Rod R. Blagojevich Governmental Internship." I'm just dying to know what interns learn with that program! (Colorful language? The ins and outs of pay-for-play?)</p>

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<p>TheDad -- before you reply I want to apologize for the tone of some of what was in my post #161 above. (The paragraphs that begin, "You aren't talking fit" and "Given that") -- I do think the comments that you made are insulting and denigrating to me and my son, but I shouldn't have responded in kind. So I don't want to add fuel to the fire for a fight. </p>

<p>My other questions stand, though obviously the reference to "the new Rod R. Blagojevich Governmental Internship" in post #162 has nothing to do with any college, and was meant to inject some humor into the discussion. </p>

<p>I have never made any effort to say one school is better than another -- but I started on this thread trying to point out that sometimes there are better results for students at places that no one would have anticipated being a "fit". Obviously you don't get that. </p>

<p>I do have a very realistic basis for comparison given the schools that each of my kids have attended. So I know what I know. My d. gets financial aid to attend her school, but not nearly enough -- though it worked out that her first year I paid less in tuition for her than my son was paying at the CSU. (But that was only because there were 2 in college - when my son aged out of FAFSA my costs went up considerably). It has been a stress point every single year to work with financial aid because of the non-custodial parent - I never know what the award will be and with the current economy I'm not happy about the amount of debt I have taken on. My son graduated with almost no debt, and easily found a job that pays what I think is a good salary and benefits for a recent college grad. My daughter is taking on the maximum allowed in Stafford loans - she wants to go to grad school and plans to borrow for that as well -- and I know that she worries about the debt, a lot. Times are looking tough in terms of the job market for college grads. I have no regrets about the choices either of my kids have made -- but if I had it all to do over again, knowing what I know now, I don't think the private education is worth the cost differential.</p>

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<p>Financial fit is an extremely important factor in choosing a college. It is no fun attending a college that offers myriads of EC opportunities if a student has to spend most of his or her time outside of studying to earn enough to pay back loans.</p>

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<p>Is it only me? But the thought of a college where 2/3 of the juniors don't like the college enough to stick around strikes me as a bad thing - not a good thing. I believe in spending time abroad, but I'm not convinced that going away junior year is the best way to do it. (For me I spent a year abroad before college, and two summers abroad, one with a grant from my college for doing research on my senior thesis.)</p>

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<p>It does seem like a very high percentage-- I too would wonder what was driving the students away, especially since my daughter's primary-stated reason for going abroad this year was a desire to get away from her home campus -- but I don't think TheDad's numbers are accurate. I'd note that the US News site gives a much lower percentage -- see:
Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report And the college web site itself for the college I think TheDad's daughter attended merely claims that [nearly</a> half

[/quote]
of its juniors study abroad. </p>

<p>There are some colleges with very high study abroad rates -- up to 100%, but I think most of them tend to be colleges that put an emphasis on study abroad in their program and may operate partner colleges or sites abroad. For example, Yeshiva U has a 90% study abroad rate -- but I'd guess that the vast majority are going to study at Yeshiva's Jerusalem campus. </p>

<p>I think some colleges inflate their reported percentages in marketing materials by including students who travel abroad for periods shorter than a semester, such as a summer program abroad or travel over a school break. While study abroad has been increasing, the typical length of stay has been trending down slightly:</p>

<p>
[quote]
A record 241,791 U.S. students went abroad for academic credit in 2006-07, up 8% from the previous year, and nearly 150% more than a decade earlier, the report says. It was released today by the Institute of International Education, a non-profit New York-based group that tracks international enrollment trends with U.S. State Department funding.

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[quote]

•A trend toward shorter durations continues. More than 55% of students study abroad for periods of eight weeks or less, up from 53% the previous year. The number of students spending an academic year abroad has dropped from 5.5% to 4.4%.

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Source: [url=<a href="http://blogs.csun.edu/news/clips/2008/11/17/record-number-of-us-students-study-abroad-in-diverse-locations/%5DRecord"&gt;http://blogs.csun.edu/news/clips/2008/11/17/record-number-of-us-students-study-abroad-in-diverse-locations/]Record&lt;/a> number of U.S. students study abroad, in diverse locations - CSUN University News Clippings](<a href="http://www.smith.edu/about_justthefacts.php%5Dnearly"&gt;http://www.smith.edu/about_justthefacts.php)&lt;/p>

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<p>CalMom, I think that most of your comments reinforce the idea that fit is extremely important. If your D had found her niche I wonder if the loans would be as stressful for both of you... I've written before about my son "finding his people" when he got to MIT. A professor found him a job summer after Freshman year; a TA got him into a cheap apartment; several of the older guys from his fraternity helped him with interviews and networking before he graduated; the chair of his department recommended him for the job he eventually got after graduation; one of the administrative assistants in the department bugged his professors to write the recommendations he needed for grad school (and this was two years after he graduated!) and made sure they went to the right place. And this is just the professional "fit"- the social and intellectual fit I've written about before.</p>

<p>This isn't to say how great my kid was; just to say that many of our financial concerns were allayed when we saw how faculty and grad students and alums were so quick to be helpful. </p>

<p>I'm not saying that a public U operates any differently... but when a kid has found "fit" lots of things come together- work opportunities, research grants, permanent jobs, TA's who are plugged-in to industry, etc. I think you would be less stressed out about the loans if you felt that your D had a broad base of support ready to facilitate her entry into the adult world- not to mention that she'd feel less isolated socially.</p>

<p>It's great your D has made the best of a sub-optimal situation... but frankly, it sounds like the college, however wonderful academically, hasn't been a fit. No???</p>

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<p>
[quote]
CalMom, I think that most of your comments reinforce the idea that fit is extremely important. If your D had found her niche I wonder if the loans would be as stressful for both of you.

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You'd be very, very mistaken. The biggest stress point for me every year is the fear that I will have to tell my daughter in August that she cannot return to school in the fall. This is exacerbated by the fact that her college does not provide financial aid awards for continuing students until July, but tuition is due by August -- so I don't have a clue as to how much money I will need to come up with, and then I've only got a month to figure out how to come up with it. It has gone up every single year.</p>

<p>It would be a lot easier if my daughter was not doing well academically at the school and didn't have clear plans involving her major and graduate study. Then I could have a much more laid back attitude about what we could afford. The way it is now I feel that she's put so much effort in that it wouldn't be fair to pull the rug out from under her. </p>

<p>I don't really care about my daughter's social life. She has always been very outgoing and I don't need to financially subsidize a good time for her. The ONLY thing of value for all that money is the education.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I think you would be less stressed out about the loans if you felt that your D had a broad base of support ready to facilitate her entry into the adult world- not to mention that she'd feel less isolated socially.

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You don't know my daughter and you are really misreading the situation. It's not an "adult world" problem, its more an issue being an adult stuck in a kid's world. I think that the lack of social fit is because my daughter seems significantly more mature than many of her same-age peers. She actually had a much better experience during her sophomore year when she was in a suite with mostly juniors. But her first year she was required to live in an all-freshman dorm, and this year, as a junior, she was stuck on a floor where most of the students are sophomores. Her best friend during her freshman year was a 26-year-old guy who was a non-traditional, returning student. She really is in her elements when she is working or on internships and can socialize with older people; she's age 20 but many of her friends are in their 30's. </p>

<p>I know that sounds like parental bragging, but my d has always been that way -- just way ahead of the curve in that respect. I think she would have been happier if her college had been more flexible about off-campus living -- she had wanted to take an apartment off campus with 2 friends from other schools her sophomore year, but her college won't provide financial aid for students to live off campus, so that wasn't an option. She probably would be very happy if she could live more of a commuter lifestyle.</p>

<p>And no, I'm not worried about her ability to find work after college --I'm worried about the economy as a whole. I just think the economy is going to get worse before it gets better, and if my d. gets into the graduate program she wants, then she will have to finance it entirely from loans and will come out in 2 years with a master's degree and at least $60K worth of debt.</p>

<p>
[quote]
frankly, it sounds like the college, however wonderful academically, hasn't been a fit. No???

[/quote]
You know, its not summer camp - I think that a lot of parents and students treat college as if that is what is supposed to be, and that is probably one thing that really drives my d. crazy. When I went off to law school, it never occurred to me to visit the school or to look at anything other than the general outlines of the program, cost, and relative quality/prestige of the schools I was looking at. I hated law school, but not as much as just about every other lawyer I've ever met. I went to law school because I wanted to be a lawyer, not because I wanted to hang around with a bunch of miserable, egotistical and ambitious law students for 3 years. I put my GOALS way ahead of any consideration of personal comfort. </p>

<p>I think my daughter saw things the same way -- she's always thinking a step ahead of everyone else in terms of long-term goals. So it really is not about "fit", unless you redefine "fit" in purely objective, academic terms -- and then the criticisms she would level at her college would have to do with distribution requirements and specific course requirements for her major. I don't know if that's what you mean by "fit" or not. But the bottom line is she still had to choose among the colleges she got into and that we could afford-- she would probably have preferred Gallatin at NYU, but their financial aid sucked so it didn't happen. But I don't know if the academic environment there would have lived up to her expectations.</p>

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<p>Calmom, apologies if I've offended you... your tone suggests that I have.</p>

<p>We never treated college like summer camp. We got lucky that our kids "found themselves" at college, but their social lives were not our primary concern. "Fit " isn't just about friendships- it's about a 70 year old emeritus professor who hands you an article he's written and asks what you think; it's about having the grad students in the lab you're working in teach you stuff the professor thought you knew when you got hired but you don't know but they like you so they don't want to rat you out; fit is about a professor emailing you a fellowship application with the note, " you'd be a shoe-in for this and I hope you've applied already" when you've never even HEARD of the fellowship, and yes, it looks very cool.</p>

<p>For sure you can get all these at a State U. For sure it's not worth selling a kidney to pay for a school you can't afford. But to dismiss "fit" as just summer camp is pretty narrow-minded. I was lucky enough to attend a college which was a fantastic "fit" for me-- even though I didn't "fit" in the conventional social sense (like your D I was pitifully prepared to hang out with Rich folks... but eventually I found my way). I was happy my kids found "fit" as well.</p>

<p>World would not have come to an end if they hadn't.... but to have ignored it as a factor would have been foolish.</p>

<p>Just out of curiosity- have you ever worked in a job which was a poor fit? And then gone to one which was a great fit????</p>

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<p>Everything you just said supports my "fit is determined in hindsight" statement.</p>

<p>You've just listed a bunch of discrete incidents that fit in the "nice things that happened along the way" category. By that definition then every college everyone in my family went to was an amazingly wonderful "fit", because guess what? Both my kids have had wonderful teachers and great experiences at their various colleges, and both have had terrible teachers and personality conflicts and a whole variety of things happen that really ticked them off. That's life. It happens everywhere. I could write a very, very long post detailing all of the really great experiences my kids have had and all of the really annoying bad stuff, but I don't have time for it. </p>

<p>But can you explain something to me? My daughter's college has a system where the students are assigned one advisor when they start college, and then after they declare their major they choose a different advisor for themselves. My daughter really had a great relationship with her first advisor, who was the head of the department, extremely accomplished, but was willing to spend a lot of time with my daughter-- they got along very well. But she doesn't like her 2nd advisor -- she just doesn't see eye-to-eye with him and they clash a lot. Here's my question: is her school advising system a good "fit"? </p>

<p>I'm baffled because I don't understand whether we are supposed to tally up good things and bad and just do a raw count, or assign some sort of score -- or whether we can have a monthly fitness report or something. Maybe a time of day report would be a good idea, or a day-of-week report, because that seems to be a big factor in whether the kid sounds happy or grumpy on the phone. </p>

<p>My "summer camp" reference is made because I am very frustrated with this either/or, blanket analysis that everyone wants to impose. I think my kids' experiences wherever they go are 90% influenced by their own attitude & input, and 10% influenced by the environment they happen to be in. If I relate something that went well at a certain college, then someone says, that means the college is a "great fit" ... and if I relate something that went wrong, then someone posts that they are sorry that the college is such a "poor fit". </p>

<p>Life is a whole lot more complicated than that.</p>

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<p>Cal, I repeat my question- have you ever left a job which was a poor fit and landed in a job which is a great fit?</p>

<p>I didn't discover the poor fit job was a poor fit in hindsight; I knew it going in; I would be trading off all the intangibles which can make work life joyful in order to get an "academy" type company on my resume and for the money. I lasted two years; it was hideous. I learned a ton; it has benefited me virtually every day of my professional life; I was miserable virtually all the time.</p>

<p>So I'm not saying that life is always a bed of roses. But to leave that job and end up in the same profession in a place that was a great fit??? It was a joy to go to work most days.</p>

<p>Do you not believe in professional "fit"? I know kids who end up in Highly Prestigious U to get their ticket punched; sometimes it's a good fit and sometimes it's a terrible fit. I know kids in my neighborhood commuting to a local "open enrollment" type college; for some it's great, since it gives them the lifestyle they want and will give them the degree they're working for at a reasonable cost, and for some of them it's a terrible fit, but there were no other viable options so life goes on. Mostly these are late-bloomer types who woke up late junior year-- by then the GPA wouldn't support getting merit aid at the type of place that might have been a good enviroment for them- so they take public transportation to class, keep their old HS job, see their HS friends on the weekends, and life goes on as well.</p>

<p>If it were my kid I'd PREFER to have the kid in a good fit place-- whatever that might be. And if my cognitive dissonance is so pronounced, or I'm too dumb to realize what a dope I've been- well so be it. And for the record, I don't believe that a bad advisor or a lousy professor or an ugly dorm means the school is a poor fit. But surely you've known kids who are in a place which is just systemically bad for them-- not that it's a bad college- but bad for them. Don't you know kids who transfer????</p>

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<p>I don't think fit means that a student will find everything perfect: perfect roommate, perfect profs, perfect fellow students, perfect courses, perfect schedules, throughout four years.</p>

<p>But a student who wants to go on studying ballet should look into opportunities for doing so. Ditto the student who wants a chance to study abroad, to have smaller classes, to be able to come home occasionally without spending two days in the air. A student who wants to study engineering would certainly be better off in a school that does offer engineering. </p>

<p>We cannot know in advance if a wonderful teacher will be there all four years (see Randy Pausch); we cannot know in advance if the roommate will be compatible or not. What we know is that the location of a college will not change, nor its size (except at the margin), that its curriculum and requirements will not change drastically overnight.</p>

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<p>I'm self-employed. When things aren't working for me I try to change them. Sometimes I change. I can have work that I love and then I get tired of it and move on to something else. </p>

<p>I certainly understand that because of needing money it is very possible for a person to be stuck years on end with a job they hate. Certainly I had clients and cases I didn't like but had to stick with because I couldn't afford to turn them away. But I would call that "income" ... not "fit". </p>

<p>And of course I know kids who transferred. My daughter thought about transferring and my son did transfer. But it is total cop-out to say that my son transferred because his college was a bad "fit". He transferred because HE SCREWED UP. His good friends who stayed at that school and graduated on time had a good experience because they DIDN'T SCREW UP. </p>

<p>You know, I know people who go their whole lives blaming every failure on externalities -- it is always the "fault" of some situation outside of their control. They are always waiting for something to happen to set things right for them. </p>

<p>I made a last-minute switch of a dorm choice that clearly changed my entire experience of college. My d. believes that her first year experience would have been better if she had been on a different floor -- she always told me that part of her problem was that she was on a floor with a lot of pre-med students -- she had very little in common with them and they were always stressing about their grades so they weren't much fun to hang around with. </p>

<p>My d. was assigned to a first year writing section with a prof she hated from the start, and students at her school are not allowed to change sections. But my d. went to her advisor and pushed and lobbied and the rules were bent, and she was able to change to a section with a prof she was more comfortable with. So what would have happened if she had not made the change? Maybe she would have been miserable. Maybe she would have changed her mind and liked the teacher after all. </p>

<p>When my daughter started high school because of a scheduling mix up she got stuck in a class she absolutely, definitely did not want to take: Russian. It was "no way, no how"... but the principal said that if she would agree to stay in the Russian class he would let her keep her 10th grade bio & geometry classes rather than move into 9th grade algebra & earth science where she "belonged". It turned out my d. liked Russian; she traveled to Russia twice in high school, including a semester abroad that she was able to arrange only because she was a year ahead in math & science; she is studying abroad in Russia now and will probably graduate with a Russian minor. </p>

<p>Everything that happens in life is governed by choices that a person makes (or sometimes choices that are forced upon her by circumstance), and no one ever knows where one thing will lead. </p>

<p>I did have a work situation many years ago where things were not pleasant. Everyone was squabbling and harping at each other all the time, projects weren't getting completed, and it was a generally unpleasant place to work. I could have quit. Instead I suggested that we have a weekly staff meetings and suggested a format for meetings that would require everyone to begin with a "brag" time to tell others about their accomplishments for the week, and also required everyone to give positive feedback to others. It worked - relations improved, and it became a respectful, positive working environment. </p>

<p>There are situations that are extreme and untenable, but it is rare that they are foreseeable. Big changes -- like transferring to a new college or switching to a new job -- aren't going to solve every problem -- so I think its a lot better to take more personal responsibility in dealing with various problems and set backs. Sometime if the job or the college isn't a "fit" then the solution is for the person to either change themselves or change their environment to make a better "fit". </p>

<p>I still wouldn't label it that way... as I said, I really don't understand the whole "fit" thing. But if you are stuck on it.... well, here's one last story: ever since my daughter was a little girl, she would take clothes and sew them to make them different than they were when they came to her. We didn't have a lot of money and my daughter is very petite, so for many years she simply took hand-me-downs from her taller friends, or we'd buy cheap t-shirts at target and she'd get to work with her scissors and thread. I don't know whether these clothes "fit" when she first got them.... but they certainly "fit" after she was done with them.</p>

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<p>I do agree with Calmom that theDad's comment about Smith vs UCI was elistist. </p>

<p>Furthermore, at d's university, she doesn't have problem with registration either, D gets into all her classes that she wants to register. So this wouldn't be a fit either for D, which I think for a $50K price tag, Smith should not have this problem.</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/smith-college/647896-registration-problems-classes-full-first-year.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/smith-college/647896-registration-problems-classes-full-first-year.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Actually, it has nothing to do with pricetag. LACs are very likely to shut out students from classes in order not to exceed a certain maximum. By and large, profs at LACs have to do the grading themselves. It is not realistic for them to grade hundreds of papers and exams; so there needs to be a cap on enrolment. The same goes for classes with labs and seminars. S1 at his LAC was shut out of several classes he really needed.
S2 at his mid-sized research university has never been shut out of any class. But his largest class had nearly 300 students in it. Same price tag (adjusting for inflation).</p>

<p>Re:calmom's anecdote about clothes. I don't think that fit means it has to fit from the get-go, but that it has the potential for fitting after some tweaking. I have to hem up every single pair of trousers I buy (Land's End hems for free!). It does not mean I will turn up my nose at every pair of trousers I see. But I will not buy trousers in a size that I know will be far too small or far too big for me.
I would not advise a student who wants to study Asian religions to apply to Cooper Union, even if the student has stellar grades and Cooper Union is free. Bad fit (and the student would not get in anyway).</p>

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<p>There are plenty of people for whom "fit" is not a priority in choosing a college, and calmom seems to be one. The focus on fit is a relatively recent development and strikes me as both very American and a product of marketing. That is not to say that different campuses don't have different cultures, or that kids won't naturally prefer one school over another. But to answer the OP's question, while I don't think fit should be ignored, I do believe it is over-emphasized.</p>

<p>I know plenty of people, including my husband, who never set foot in America until the day they arrived at their undergraduate campus. The idea of fit never occurred to them, and I'm not sure they were any more or less happy at their schools than kids today who give a lot of thought to fit. When we met with our daughter's high school counselor to discuss colleges, my husband was surprised that she brought up issues which were, to him, completely irrelevant -- size, location, presence or absence of Greeks, etc. He simply believes you should go to the best school (that you get into and can afford) for the subject you want to study. </p>

<p>I don't think college fit is an issue anywhere else in the world. It seems like a luxury to me, when for so many families the choice must be based on cost. But if you have several affordable options, there is nothing wrong with making an intelligent guess about which school you will be socially and academically happiest at, and factoring that into the decision.</p>

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<p>But Marite, now you are talking about very common sense things that all kids and their parents look at when they look at schools: Big or small? Urban or rural? Does it have my major? If that's all there were to "fit," I don't think it would be talked about so much here on these forums; what the Dad and others are talking about are all sorts of other conditions that optimize a particular child's educational experience, and I agree with calmom that 90% of a child's experience is up to that child and the choices he/she makes.</p>

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<p>dbwes:</p>

<p>What I talked about are only some of the factors that go into fit. I also mentioned party schools or sports-dominated schools, neither of which would have suited my Ss; schools that do not have desired ECs or academic programs. I also think that financial fit is crucial. There is no point attending a school that is chock full of EC opportunities if a student cannot avail himself of herself of them because the student needs to work as many hours as s/he can.</p>

<p>There are certainly some students and parents who exaggerate the importance of fit and they can be found in both the pro and anti-fit camp. Fit does not mean perfect fit. It means reasonable fit. If I wanted absolutely perfect, I'd get all my clothes and shoes custom-made, using the very finest materials available. I can't afford to do so, so I opt for reasonable fit. Unlike clothes, however, colleges cannot be tailored to individual students' requirements.
And even an ideal college will not prevent a student from somehow getting an incompatible roommate. Even Eden had a snake in it.</p>

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<p>BrighamYoung/UCBerkeley
Harvard/Hampshire
MIT/Muhlenberg
Princeton/PesacolaChristian
Vassar/ViginiaMiltaryInstitute
Wesleyan/WashingtonandLee</p>

<p>Interchangeable, absolutely.</p>

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<p>No they aren't. One is cheaper. Pick that one.
Glad I could help.</p>