Is "fit" over-emphasized?

Parents Forum
61

<p>I don't think the problem is spoiled children. I have observed that some parents are unable to set appropriate boundaries and limitations with regards to their children. If the parents described in the previous post refused to fund a school that would have caused them significant financial hardship, the child would have found a different school to attend. </p>

<p>I find the term "fit" to be a nebulous one that seems to include of a number of quantifiable things, such as, do you feel comfortable with the campus architecture and size, do you like the dorms, do the other students look like people you'd be comfortable with, do you like the weather in that part of the country, and so on. Everything thought of as "fit" can be listed and described, so why even use the word "fit?" I guess it can be a short cut way to say that you like many things about a certain school.</p>

62

<p>"I don't think the problem is spoiled children. I have observed that some parents are unable to set appropriate boundaries and limitations with regards to their children."</p>

<p>^^^IMO- this type of behavior from parents leads to spoiled children. And I do believe that there are at least few schools out there that would fit even the most fussy student..perhaps at lower price tags to save some financial pain. But the brands might not be as cool...
Agree though that It DOES usually start with the parents though...</p>

63

<p>It all depends on the student - some are mature enough to make good decisions, others may not be mature enough. In our case fit was a determining factor. Visited all 3 campuses on final list (all in top 20) and it was all about campus and student culture, atmosphere and "feel". The final choice was not the school that was #1 on the original list. Even after almost 4 years, I still hear "it was the best choice I could have made". I am sure that any of the 3 (all equal in terms of final cost) would have worked out. After seeing the last 3 1/2 years I am sure that "fit" was important and the best choice was made (by the student and absolutely supported by the parents).</p>

<p>In our case climate and location were not a factor, although all 3 schools were about the same size. In my opinion "fit" can be a very loose term and it depends on who is doing the defining. Can students adjust to most campuses - probably. At the same time it may be easier to adjust at some campuses than others. Four years is a long time to be semi happy and trying to adjust.</p>

64

<p>
[quote]
Reading through this thread I am amazed that most parents did not confront this issue of "fit" earlier--at least by high school. We encountered this issue starting with pre-school living in a "Private school counts" metropolitan area.

[/quote]
Well, many of us have our kids in pubic school. And for most of us that meant something like, the school that happened to be nearest to our house. I'm fortunate enough that I had a little bit of choice for my kids among some magnet programs.... but that still is a choice among a very limited set of options. I was also fortunate enough to live in one place while raising my kids -- there are many families who have had to move more frequently, enrolling their kids in public schools in new communities with very little advance knowledge of the new schools. </p>

<p>I think for me, that's part of the reason the "fit" idea is overstated -- if my kids could manage at age 5 to deal with less-than-perfect schools.... I'd hope for some flexibility at age 18. Maybe part of the problem is too much choice. I don't think the kids who graduate from high school and attend the nearest community college because their parents can't afford or are unwilling to pay for tuition and housing somewhere else are thinking about "fit". They are just thinking about "education" and doing what they have to do to get one.</p>

65

<p>Calmom, "fit" is not about the student being flexible. At all. "Fit" is about an aggregate environment that maximizes a student's potential. </p>

<p>For some students it doesn't much matter...they'll have close to the same qualitative experience no matter where they go to college.</p>

<p>And of the students for whom fit does matter, I'll stipulate that they'll do fine or at least okay at any number of schools but that isn't the point...nor is the fact that some students who have to go to community college aren't concerned with fit but getting an education nor is it about not being able to deal with less than perfect schools. </p>

<p>"Fit" <em>is</em> about getting an education. It's about maximizing the potential of the four years spent with the institution. And because it's so idiosyncratic relative to the individual, a good fit for one student is a so-so or terrible fit for another. My D would have graduated, probably been more or less as happy, and done fairly well at Georgetown, Yale, Amherst, Oberlin, or (God forbid) UC Berkeley...but the school she did attend was spectacular <em>for her</em>. Not just good...spectacular. I take back what I said...she probably would have been miserable at Berkeley.</p>

66

<p>The OP here. I can see there is a range of opinions here but I am curious if those of you who have said that fit made a huge difference in your child's college experience would say a little bit about what exactly made the school a good fit. For example, my D is a little on the shy side. I have thought about whether I should be thinking about whether college X (a 5,000 student, fairly competitive school) or college Y (a 1200 student, less competitive school) would be a better fit for her. But I honestly don't know how to work it through. Bigger and more competitive means maybe she will be more intimidated and less likely to come out of her shell, but on the other hand she likes to succeed and if she is challenged she might be more motivated to come out of her shell, and more people means she might be more likely to find people that she connects with. How would I assess this, or are we just not thinking about "fit" in the same way?</p>

67

<p>No, I think you're thinking about it correctly. And I hear that you are really trying to figure out what is best for her, but she is the one with the answers you are looking for. I bet if you ask her those questions she will have a good sense of what she wants. I'm not saying that they don't need or want our guidance or opinions or our help. But one of the things I learned was that just because I wanted certain things for my daughter, and thought they would be good for her, that didn't make them right for her. </p>

<p>I have also had to embrace the fact that my daughter is not one of those students who would "be fine anywhere." Some kids are more adaptable than others, some are more sensitive than others. Everyone's different.</p>

68

<p>Yes, I think it's over emphasized. But there's nothing that I can say that others haven't already said in the thread.</p>

<p>But I just remember when a friend of my daughter told her that in 2004 during the Kerry and Bush election, when a bunch of students gathered to watch the election, a debate broke out: all of them left wing except one guy said he was supporting Bush. A right wing conservative in a extremely left wing school, can you say that is not a "fit"?</p>

69

<p>I don't think parents can determine "fit" for their college bound. They can give the kids a financial budget. They can give some opinion. They can make some suggestions. It is my opinion that "fit" is all about the student once the financial boundaries are on the table. For example, I bought a shirt for my oldest many years ago. He took one look at it and said "I'm not the kinda of person who wears a shirt like that." Little did I know. I believe wholeheartedly that parents have a right to set financial and even if circumstances warrant, geographic boundaries, but after that the kids have to own their choice.</p>

70

<p>TheDad: You said what I was trying to say. Bravo. My kids have had the same experience as your daughter.</p>

71

<p>If you have unlimited financial resources, then I suppose you are safe to buy very strongly into the notion of "fit" and go with it. Or... if you are really lucky and your kid falls in love with a school that is both affordable and a financial safety.... then the "fit" thing is going to work out well. </p>

<p>But I can guarantee you that, come April, there are going to be kids & parents posting after the results are in, distraught over the fact that the kids did not get into the desired schools, and debating whether to take a gap year and reapply a year later rather than go to the (horrors) state u. safety that did accept the kid. </p>

<p>And there are going to be others -- probably much, much more this year than in past years -- who are going to have a "perfect fit" college acceptance in hand, but a wholly inadequate financial aid award and no way to finance it. I say it will be more this year because of the state of the economy: colleges that have lost a huge chunk of their endowments will be far less generous with merit aid, and will shift their need-based financial aid awards away from grants toward more loans. At the same time, it is going to be a lot tougher for parents to get loans -- they will find that anticipated home equity LOC's have dried up, and that the value of investments they has socked away for college are substantially reduced. So there are a lot more kids who are simply going to have to bite the bullet and go where they can afford to go.</p>

<p>I understand why parents want to see their kids attending colleges that will be as perfectly attuned to their kid's needs as possible.....but I think that in 2009, the most important "fit" is going to be how well the college fits with the parent's bank account. And I'd advice caution in terms of how much the student will borrow to finance the education-- there may be a long road to economic recovery before the job market really picks up again.</p>

72

<p>I'm with you Calmom. As someone who had the choice of state school A or state school B - I view the concept of fit as a luxury. Having the opportunity to assess fit with no boundaries is certainly a nice to have. But I think many folks push themselves into believing that the choice boils down to one perfect match - at any financial cost.
I know of a parent who sold her home to fund her child's dream to go to a small private. Another who says they're fine living on the streets at retirement rather than deny their child's dream school.
That's where I don't get it. Many the folks here seem to be very happy with being able to find and fund the right fit for their children. That's great. But I personally think it's overemphasized in some cases- and that families with financial struggles suffer as a result. And we have more folks with financial troubles right now...so it should be interesting to see how this plays out.</p>

73

<p>To add to calmom’s perspective.</p>

<p>I went to a CC long ago. At that time, if someone would have mentioned “fit” to me, I would have laughed long and hard because the word fit was not part of my vocabulary. School was the means to a degree and hopefully a more productive and lucrative future. Period.</p>

<p>Fast forward a few years, and I have children who think about “fit” because to them going away to college entails more than receiving a degree at the end of four years. There is no question that the reason they think like this is because they can. Fit is a luxury which, because it connotes choice, I’m happy to provide and hope they feel fortunate to have. </p>

<p>However, I have always preached (contrary to the tide in our affluent community) that the right “fit” is not necessarily the most prestigious/expensive school nor the one that will give them the most idyllic four years. Choosing fit should result from a cost/benefit analysis that takes into account both the parents and the student’s needs.</p>

<p>toneranger, didn't see your post. You took the words out of my mouth. :)</p>

74

<p>For me, fit is a combination of both quantifiable and subjective factors and it is therefore important but its importance is also different for each student depending on how they define and prioritize those factors; I think fit often becomes "over-emphasized" when the subjective elements are given more importance than the quantifiable ones or when they are based on unrealistic expectations. </p>

<p>Advice to the OP: students are often encouraged to prepare lists/charts of ALL the factors that they/their families feel are important in selecting a college, in order to help them compare/rank the colleges they are considering (this exercise might help the students with more subjective leanings stay more "grounded" ;))</p>

75

<p>
[quote]
If you have unlimited financial resources, then I suppose you are safe to buy very strongly into the notion of "fit"

[/quote]

I agree -- the focus on fit is a luxury. For those who can afford any school, college choice may be based on fit. For most other students, cost will be the priority.</p>

76

<p>I only have one child, so I only have one data point. For her, overall fit was very important and much of that fit was subjective. She specifically wanted a large urban campus with an active alternative music scene and a critical mass of quirky, nonpretentious students. Actually, the prestige factor was not important; she is also very much internally-driven (academically) but loathes academic competition.</p>

<p>I know there are many schools that would fit that description (although she did fall in love with her safety), but there are also many excellent schools that do not qualify. Every time I dragged her to a small rural LAC I saw her eyes glaze over; at the sametime, she was also turned off by several large state Us because of the emphasis on big-time athletics. (Nothng wrong with football - just not for her!) </p>

<p>I'm sure she could have adapted to many different school, but her choice - again, her safety - is pretty much living up to expectations. So, add me to the list of people who say it depends on the student and the circumstance, and don't underestimate the importance of finances.</p>

77

<p>Per my prior #50, importance of fit is influenced by alternative available choices. Financial constraints can certainly dictate what that subset of available choices can be.</p>

<p>But for many people this subset will still not be so limiting as to result in one and only one choice.</p>

<p>A good student in my area with high financial need might be able to choose between several community colleges, several state university branches, and even subsidized scholarship offers from some priivate colleges.</p>

<p>We have state university branches here that cost about the same as each other, yet differ in a number of ways from one another. And may be variously preferred by different individuals.</p>

<p>So even for many students who are cost-constrained to various degrees, there often may still be some choices. And where there is more than one reasonably equally feasible option, choices must be made. The criteria used to make these choices, even among this perhaps more limited pool of cost- constrained options, can still be considered matters of "fit".</p>

<p>Though cost constraints may result in lack of complete discretion, it doesn't always automatically follow that there can be no discretion exercised whatsoever.</p>

78

<p>I totally agree with Monydad, fit has very little to do with luxury. Within a financial budget you can have size - large or small, urban or rural, research U vs. LAC, close to home or far away. That doesn't even encompass arts vs. technical or any of the other flavors. Fit also has very little to do with whether a particular school is ranked 1 or 300 out of the 4,000 four year colleges and universities.</p>

79

<p>
[quote]
Within a financial budget you can have size - large or small, urban or rural, research U vs. LAC, close to home or far away.

[/quote]
That really isn't true. It's true for some people.... but not others. I mean, to start with, there are a lot of families who really can't afford the cost of housing their kids away from home - so "close to home" is the only choice. There are a lot of states that do not have much in the way of "small"-- unless you consider a campus with 5,000 or more students to be "small". Here in California, the urban campuses of the UC system are extremely selective -- "distant surburban" is more likely to actually admit the kid. </p>

<p>I agree with you that fit in theory has little to do with ranking, but it can be hard to get kids to see it that way. I also find it interesting that you wrote that it doesn't matter if the school is ranked "1 or 300" out of 4,000..... what if the "rank" of the only viable school (if there were one) would be a lot closer to 800? or 1500?</p>

80

<p>
[quote]
I agree -- the focus on fit is a luxury. For those who can afford any school, college choice may be based on fit. For most other students, cost will be the priority.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I assure you, we could not afford any school and in fact took on a considerable burden. Cost may be a priority but that doesn't exclude fit...something you can't afford isn't necessarily a luxury. Heart surgery? </p>

<p>Some items of fit for my D: </p>

<ol>
<li><p>An intellectual atmosphere among the student body as evidenced by classroom discussions routinely being carried over to lunch and dinner.</p></li>
<li><p>Access to enduring relationships with professors. D's schools had no TA's...even discussion sections were taught by profs. One of D's first major courses had the discussion section taught by the department chair. D wound up with at least three profs whom I suspect she will have lifelong relationships with and several others that she can call upon at any time. You don't get this with large classes. "Large" at D's school was 50-80 students; 12-20 was routine and 6-8 wasn't rare. Intensive exposure to the material, no place to hide.</p></li>
<li><p>Not "hand holding" but support. No "weeder" classes. A former Mathematics professor from Berkeley envied my D's school's approach for Math majors. D virtually lived with various profs through their office hours...and that was the rule for the campus, not the exception.</p></li>
<li><p>A focus on undergraduate teaching. TheMom and I had began the journey with a bias in favor of large research universities. We were blown away by the focus on undergrads at D's school. (LAC, no graduate program to speak of for the regular-year students.) Profs did their research but the focus and the raison d'etre for hiring was quality of, and commitment to, undegraduate teaching. Ever had a class with a prof who really didn't want to be there?</p></li>
<li><p>A student body that was committed to learning. As D once notably said, "Not everyone here is my best friend but I respect almost everybody and there are very few slackers here." Half of one's education takes place outside the classroom...these are the kinds of people you want to be hanging out with, not having to search for them amidst a sea of indifference or tepid application.</p></li>
<li><p>Undergrad research opportunities. D's work from first-semester work as a research assistant garnered credit from a paper presented an academic conference. While not routine, this was far from uncommon at her school. Leading to...</p></li>
<li><p>Off-campus opportunities. D split her junior year between Washington DC and Budapest. A classmate split hers between Rome & Oxford. The number and range of off-campus possibilities was dizzying, like being in a restaurant where there were far more options on the menu that you could sample in months. One of the pieces of propaganda for D's school says something like "Four years where it's all about you." You can't say that about many colleges.</p></li>
<li><p>A housing & social system that promotes leadership, growth, and focus outside of keg parties.</p></li>
<li><p>Active and widespread opportunities in the performing arts (orchestra, ballet in particular) for non-majors.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>D would probably say I missed a couple of things, that's off the top of my head. Could she have lived without most or all of those? Sure. But "luxuries" that weren't essential to the education she received? I don't think so. (N.B., some people consider getting a degree to be synonymous with getting an education...I don't.)</p>

<p>MM, regarding your question: the size & social fabric are certainly considerations, particularly if your student has issues on the social side of things. D didn't want a school that was claustrophobically small...a lot of LAC's are 800-1200 students. Otoh, a school of 10,000+ where she would have been lost in the shuffle wasn't in the cards either. </p>

<p>A school with a social focus that wasn't centered on alcohol and sports was a plus.</p>

<p>As someone who was used to being the moderate kid in a liberal environment, finding that was a good fit too. (Her school did suffer from the normal LAC excess of PC. One classmate said, "You can't be religious...you're smart!) She emphatically did not want to be in place where the surrounding community was anti-Choice because she didn't want to feel as if she were swimming upstream all the time. Also, as a city kid, she wanted a place where there was art, culture, restaurants (not fast food or diner). Bye-bye to places like Grinnell.</p>

<p>I'm glad she found a place that met her needs so well and I don't consider the exercise, including college visits from 9th through 12th grade, and the attendant expense...which is not, as some cavalierly suggest, "no problem," to have been in vain.</p>

<p>Note: rankings figured nowhere into it though we were aware of what the rankings are.</p>