<p>mathson had the choice between Harvard and Carnegie Mellon. For him fit was the choice of 200 professors in computer science and a stand alone school devoted to it, or 20 in a fledgling engineering school. It wasn't easy to turn down Harvard, but he has no regrets.</p>
<p>TheDad.... you would be amazed at how many of those qualities you think are uniquely associated with "fit" can be found on campuses that you or your daughter probably would never have taken a 2nd look at. One of the most abiding "myths" of this whole process is the idea that expensive private schools or very small colleges offer something elusive and unique that cannot be found at low-cost public schools.</p>
<p>CalMom, I would not be amazed. I'm a UC grad and TheMom has worked at UCLA for almost 30 years. We're very well aware of the qualitative experience of the state schools. Neither UCLA nor Berkeley would have been in the running as far as "fit" goes. We know them intimately and know whereof we speak.</p>
<p>Not all expensive/private schools are worth it, imo. But neither should all expensive/private schools be sneered at with an assumption that the education is just as good. The degree, yes; the education, no. </p>
<p>Btw, on sheer economics, the private school gets points because you're forced to graduate in 4 years. At UC, 5 years and sometimes 6 are not uncommon due to impacted courses, etc.</p>
<p>Fwiw, the counseling at D's school runs multiple rings around UC counseling, from entering first-years to major advising to career development.</p>
<p>As a collateral indicator, funny how the offspring of faculty from places like Harvard go to schools like D's. </p>
<p>If D had been forced to choose a California school, it might have been one of the Claremont Colleges.</p>
<p>You are assuming a lot of $$ available - either because the parents can afford the cost of private tuition, or because the family qualifies for a lot of need based aid. (Keep in mind that because of the structure of the financial aid system, especially in private schools, there is often a huge mismatch between actual need and what the college will recognize as need).</p>
<p>I was struck by TheDad's list of what constituted a good fit for his daughter. A good fit for myself in college would have been (and was) the polar opposite almost point for point. As an introvert (who is not in the least shy), the ability to disappear in a crowd is essential to my happiness. I need huge doses of isolation to recharge my batteries and just to be able to think. If I had been forced to attend a school with all that emphasis on interaction with professors and other students, I would have found it quite painful, irritating, and totally distracting to getting an education.</p>
<p>It is clear from this thread that people do have radically different goals in what they are seeking for a college experience. Attributes considered a plus by some will be a negative for others. Within the frame of affordability or cost/benefit (since being able to afford something is very different from saying it is worth buying), I can see where it makes sense to seek fit as much as possible. While multiple colleges are likely to offer a good fit, almost all will also require trade-offs.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>I agree -- the focus on fit is a luxury.<<</p> </blockquote>
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<p>I am reminded of what John Adams said when asked by some French high society snob if in America people were devoted to art and poetry. He said (paraphrasing): "I study war and diplomacy so that my sons may study government and commerce. My sons will study government and commerce so that their sons may study art and poetry."</p>
<p>In my case my parents grew up in the Depression and and struggled to finish high school. They worked hard and saved so that their son could go to college - any college. The notion of "fit" didn't enter into the equation. I took my education and worked hard and invested so that my daughters can now pick and choose among the colleges and find the ones that for them will be an excellent "fit."</p>
<p>TheAnalyst cites his or her own needs for solitude and relative anonymity, the type of characteristic that has no doubt defined his or her personality since birth. But others on this thread mention fit issues such as preppiness and the tendency to wear pearls to class. Eighteen-year-olds are works in progress and incredibly adaptable to their surroundings. You can send one abroad to another culture and they'll go native remarkably quickly. On the other hand, an introvert can develop excellent social skills but will not inherently change into an extrovert any more than a right-hander who learns to perform various skills with his left hand could be said to have changed into a left-hander. A concern for fit is important when the issue is one that defines the basic identity of a person, but not when it refers to a style preference that could just as easily be learned or tolerated. I often see prospective students on CC asking "What are good colleges for such-and-such a major?" I'll bet you that if I found 100 of those threads that were at least a couple years old and contacted those students, 80 or more would not be majoring in the subject that seemed essential to the "fit" they'd sought as applicants.</p>
<p>I've been thinking about this issue of looking at schools because they have a good program in XYZ. It's clear that many students change their minds about what they want to study, but maybe they need to be able to try the thing they have in mind before they can figure that out. In other words, if they really think they're going to go into engineering, music therapy, or graphic design, maybe they need to experience a little of that path to know that they want to be somewhere else. </p>
<p>As long as they haven't traded off every other good thing to pick that school, it seems like it could be okay to let the idea of a particular major/program/compelling interest weigh into their college selection.</p>
<p>My kids went to public schools k-12, and the schools weren't always a particularly good fit. (I remember when DS changed elementary schools after we moved, and he came back from school the first day and said, "Mom! It's okay to be smart here!") Both my kids could have had a free college education at schools that were not particularly good fits. Instead, we choose "affordable" education at a school that is a terrific fit. I think there is a major difference in "feel" between schools, and I want/wanted my kids to be surrounded by the resources and peers to optimize a great experience.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>One of the most abiding "myths" of this whole process is the idea that expensive private schools or very small colleges offer something elusive and unique that cannot be found at low-cost public schools.<<</p> </blockquote>
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<p>Calmom - With the greatest respect for your many wonderful contributions ..., you're wrong on this.</p>
<p>
Comments like that are what convince me that I'm right.</p>
<p>calmom- I'm with you!
I don't pretend to think that all public Us offer the same environment as private colleges.
But I do think some dismiss public universities based on the myth that private is better.
There are public Us of all sizes and types, with varying social and academic environments. Most are a bargain in-state compared to private Us - at least for folks who aren't rolling in money or eligible for significant aide.
What I see around here (my community)is an automatic dismissal of our quality in-state public universities. Many don't even visit. The excuse is often "I don't want my kid going to a school with all of his/her high school buddies" Or "it's too big". Or "my kid can do better". Now, if one is trying to evaluate fit, why would a visit be out of the question? After a visit, our instate U leaped from the bottom of my son's list to close to the top. </p>
<p>But, even my son was guilty of jumping to conclusions when considering his choices. A couple of schools offered him free rides and his first instinct was to automatically dismiss them (if they're giving out this kind of money, they must not be very good). I think it's best to keep an open mind when evaluating fit.</p>
<p>TheDad,</p>
<p>I could have written your post #80.</p>
<p>My daughter, also attended a top LAC, but, as far as I know, a different one from your's. It was a perfect fit for her, but, as evidenced by your post, it could have been found at other schools of the same "type".</p>
<p>The Dad; to your comment on graduating in four years and advising. Many publics are offering honors colleges with priority registration, smaller classes and better advising.
Yes, that in itself points out that there are issues in large public Us.
But bottom line, top kids can get into these honors programs and avoid these hassles.
My s could grduate in 3 years but he likes it so much, he doesn't want to. No problems getting the classes he wants, and the advising has been terrific. And he's paying 1/4 of what he would at a private. Not bad...</p>
<p>Calmom and toneranger, why do you assume that fit can only be found at high-priced schools? That seems strange to me. I've known students who were very well-matched to their schools with all kinds of price tags, from low to high. I don't understand why you think fit has to cost a lot of money. It sounds like you think people who go to lower-cost schools must always be compromising their sense of fit to go there. I don't think that's true at all. Don't you know students who are happy and well-matched to their low-cost schools? </p>
<p>Those of us who are arguing that fit is important are not arguing that it has to cost a lot. I see fit and cost as orthogonal features of a school.</p>
<p>Calreader - I don't think fit can be found at only high-priced schools. But I do think options for fit are limited for those folks who aren't rolling in money or eligible for aid. So, yeah, for these folks, as long as they are paying attention to budget, the "best fit" school might not be an option. A kid in my neighborhood absolutely LOVED Boston College. Dreamed about it - thought it was the best for her. Visited multiple times and couldn't imagine going anywhere else. Got accepted and hoped for some aid but got NOTHING. She decided to go in state to her public U honors college rather than go into debt for over 100k. Fast forward...she's doing just fine - great actually...but perhaps the school isn't her IDEAL fit.<br>
So fit CAN cost a lot. Believe me, I see it in my community, where our Public U just doesn't even get put on the list for many folks. Fit within your budget is fine - and for many families- going private CAN be the cheaper route. Keeping your options open and flexible makes sense.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You are assuming a lot of $$ available - either because the parents can afford the cost of private tuition, or because the family qualifies for a lot of need based aid.
[/quote]
CalMom, there is a difference between saying "we can't afford 'fit'" and "fit" doesn't matter or doesn't exist. Not having the money doesn't make issues of fit go away, it just sadly makes it irrelevant.</p>
<p>NNGMM, I confess that LAC's were a revelation to us. All our experience, all of our biases, had been in favor of large research unversities and our personal experience had been at state Unis as well. And let me be clear that I don't think that an LAC is, a priori, a better choice than a larger research U, either for my D or for any other student. However, a good LAC fit is going to have some components that are difficult to find at larger Unis. (And a mediocre LAC...of which there are many...offers the combo of average or worse education at a high price, the worst of both worlds.) </p>
<p>The "engaged students" metric was interesting to us, not that we used the term at the time, in how seemingly haphazard it was. Present at two Ivies, noticeably absent at a third...disappointingly so. Really "popped" at two LAC's local prospective student parties, whereas a third both students and parents made the LAC seem like a glorified high school (wound up being D's safety anyway because she needed one and the performing arts opportunities were the best of any school existing on her list...her first "likely" letter was greeted with "Yay! I don't have to go X.") Two campus visits and then four years confirmed that "engaged students" for the school D chose. The contrast between her school and schools...oh, take Long Beach State for the moment...a decent if over-crowded state school near us...where most students are just plodding through classes to obtain a degree is just staggering in terms of the intellectual environment. Easier at a smaller school, but possible at larger schools.</p>
<p>Toneranger, with respect to public vs. private, we were committed to public schools for grades K-12. Not much choice, because private schools weren't an economic option but even if they had been, I didn't like some of the social ramifications, e.g., dealing with a wide range of society as it is vs. "We're skiing in Switzerland over the holidays...would you like to come with us" and too much unsupervised money floating around the student population to no good consequence.</p>
<p>Not all private schools are better than all public schools but, depending on fit criteria, some private schools will be better than any public school. If one can't afford it, that's one issue. But pretending that there aren't substantive differences is an exercise in illusion.</p>
<p>D could have had free rides at several schools. Sometimes "free" is a sucker pitch. She would have been miserable beyond belief at Oklahoma State or U/Arizona, regardless of how many honors programs and free laptops that were thrown at her. (Even private schools. USC would have been a bad fit for her at half tuition (or more) off, even without considering that it was far too close to home and that it's mentioned in Leviticus as being a den of iniquity.)</p>
<p>AnxiousMom & GADad, I think that intangible "feel" is important. D's school could probably be tagged "bright and quirky." We didn't look at any school that had a "pearls and preppy" reputation...none made it on the list for other reasons. Unless a student's academic interest is fairly esoteric, like composing operas, I think "best schools for the major" is an overrated criterion. </p>
<p>TheAnalyst, this is why fit is not one size fits all. Some students will thrive in a rural environment, others will be put to sleep by it. Some students want a highly structured environment (Columbia, American U.), others want a more free-form architecture. Some bloom in an intimate setting, others find comfort in a sea of anonymity. Btw, one of the things that I find great about my D's school is that a lot of students found themselves taking on leadership roles in the classroom and in their dorms in a way that would have been completely alien to their prior selves.</p>
<p>Schools that made or would have made fit for D: Yale, Tufts, Smith, Wellesley, Bryn Mawr, Swarthmore, U/Chicago. </p>
<p>Schools that would not have made "fit" for D: Columbia, NYU, Stanford, American, Northwestern, Amherst, Williams, Wesleyan, Skidmore, Gettysburg, any UC or Cal State school. Plenty of private schools on the "not a fit" list.</p>
<p>Schools I wonder about but don't know: Middlebury, Oberlin, Georgetown, Stanford. </p>
<p>Other student's lists will be different.</p>
<p>Toneranger - that was a helpful follow-up comment. You mentioned the idea of "best fit" or "ideal" college, and that's something I'm very skeptical about. I haven't seen any examples or arguments that would convince me that there is such a thing as the completely optimal, perfectly matched college. I do see evidence of terrific, great, good, so-so, and poor fit colleges.</p>
<p>I agree that options of fit can be limited by finances. They can also be limited by admissability and other factors. For example, maybe a student has a GPA that doesn't reflect their intellectual potential because they didn't turn in any homework for the first two years of high school, so they're probably not going to get into the most rigorous colleges even if they would thrive there.</p>
<p>Even though finding a great fit can be compromised by finances, there can still be lots of room left to seek fit. I'm biased on this by being in California, where we have a very large public university system. The less expensive CSU system has 23 universities. They vary a lot in which programs they offer, size, undergrad/grad ratio, residential/commuter ratio, location (small town/big city/rural), etc. If a student gets enough financial aid to be able to live away from home, they still have many choices among these similarly-priced schools. Fit is the obvious way (to me) to think about those choices.</p>
<p>Interesting notice in the Cuffen Legal Foundation for Educational Efficiency newsletter:</p>
<p>Today, the CLFEE has filed a civil suit against 1,234 private colleges and universities, charging them with having overcharged fifteen generations of parents for educations no different and no better than could have been obtained at any public university in America. </p>
<p>"We believe the parents of private college and private university undergraduates have been duped into believing that that there is any merit whatsoever in the higher tuition and fees charged by those private institutions."</p>
<p>In a separate matter, the Revelers Legal Association for Culinary Equivalency announced it had filed suit against Per Se, Le Bernardin, Jean Georges, and two hundred other NYC restaurants for overcharging their guests. "You can get just as nutritious food at McDonalds or Burger King" huffed Senior Partner Max Slant. "A calorie is a calorie, and these restaurants with the fancy names are simply taking advantage of their patrons." Asked if he'd ever eaten at any of the restaurants he's suing, Mr. Slant replied "No, why would I want to?"</p>
<p>Calreader: PA has lots of good options too from PSU to Pitt to smaller (and cheaper) schools like Bloomsburg or Westchester. For kids who can get aid (merit or need based) there are also numerous quality privates like Dickinson, Lehigh, and Gettysburg.
A kid I know is going to Dickinson next year, got lots of aid and will be playing his sport. He likes small schools and they have a strong program in his major. They'll be paying less than PSU or Pitt. I think that's great. Great fit...great price.<br>
But I also know families in serious debt (especially now) who chose schools like Boston U or Vandy or GW because they were "ideal" fits - not even considering the public school options I listed in the beginning of my post. These families were likely to pay much less at these publics but didn't want to include them in the mix because the fit was ASSUMED to be bad. Or the kids refused to even apply.<br>
So I guess my point is that everyone goes about evaluating fit in a different way. And it's certainly everyone's right to go into debt for their kid's "dream" or ideal school. I just don't agree with that particular strategy...</p>