Is "fit" over-emphasized?

Parents Forum
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<p>What nonsense. To begin with, fifteen human generations is about 400 years. 400 years ago there were no colleges in the US, public or private. 300 years ago there where what? Four or five colleges in the US? All of them private. The US didn't get busy founding a lot of public universities until the 19th century - about 6 to 8 generations ago.</p>

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<p>Assuming the fit will be bad at a less expensive school is as bad as assuming it will be good at a more expensive school - that can be a costly mistake.</p>

<p>At my kids' school, the problem I see more than the one you describe is the opposite - students tend to leave out private colleges because they assume that either the fit or the finances won't be there. I think we have only a very small number of kids who don't want to put any UC's or CSU's on their lists. We try to get all of the kids with one-sided lists to expand their options - at least so they'll have a range of financial aid packages to look at.</p>

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<p>^I assume that it's 15 generations of students, at 4 years each, ergo, 60 years. That would take us to WWII when the GI Bill produced a lot more state universities than before the war.</p>

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<p>NewHope's #99 post is a joke, people. (I will note that my kids did find that attendees at pricey east coast colleges are distinctly humorless lot, though.... maybe there's some connection). There is no such thing as the "Cuffen Legal Foundation", etc. </p>

<p>To TheDad, you wrote:
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Schools that would not have made "fit" for D:.... any UC or Cal State school.

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You don't know that, because your daughter didn't attend those schools.</p>

<p>I think I have some insight because I do have a bright, high-stat kid who turned down his spot at Berkeley to attend an east coast LAC (the whole "fit" thing), did not do well in that environment, and ended up years later at a CSU which provided an exceptional, life-changing opportunity and experience for him. (And an "off campus" one as well). (If you are interested you can PM me... just suffice to say that if there was ever a case of being at the right place at the right time, son's enrollment in that particular cash-trapped CSU turned out to be a shining example). So I have an experience that tells me that its too easy to write off a school based on preconceived notions. </p>

<p>I can also look back at my days at a large UC campus (more than 25,000 students) with memories of a "small" place - small classes, "housing ... that promoted leadership", close relationships with many of my profs, classes as small as 6 students, etc. What I learned then is that a big university is a conglomeration of small communities, specialized housing, etc. So all of the generalizations people make about big U's really don't really hold water - the whole point about a big U is that you really can't generalize. </p>

<p>When you make a blanket statement as that the CSU's & UC's would never "fit".... it reeks of smug elitism -- the message seems to be that there is a cohort of very discerning students who just are too darn special to mix with the thousands of students who end up at the UC's and CSU's because their parents don't know any better or because they are "slackers" content to drift through their college years in a "sea of indifference". (The quoted words are yours, from your post #80). </p>

<p>I will admit that there is something about "fit" that I don't know: I don't know what would have happened if my kids had actually attended their first choice colleges, the ones that they were hanging their hopes to most of all through the admissions process. They both were easily admitted to those schools.... but neither was feasible due to lack of financial aid. So "fit" to us meant "getting hopes up about schools you can't attend". My kids had plenty of other options.... but the point is that they would have had the opportunity to do well with whatever options they had, even if we had been one of those families where the only option was 2 years at the CC followed by a transfer to a state U. What they did with that opportunity is another matter --- but that's all college is: an opportunity. </p>

<p>I just hope that right now, in today's economy, that families think very carefully about what they are paying for, especially if the decision will exhaust family finances or require that they take on a lot of debt -- and I think most will be better off looking at more tangible factors than "fit" and focusing instead on cost/benefit.</p>

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<p>As I choose colleges for next year, one aspect of "fit" remains (since I like my...one option so far): Political/religious/moral 'fit' or cohesion.</p>

<p>Have any parents had experiences with children choosing colleges based at least in part on this criterion? It has been mentioned, but I think it's a particularly important part in an age group that is becoming more and more involved politically.</p>

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<p>We just returned from our first "official" college visits. One large state U and one very small LAC. </p>

<p>I am a graduate of one of the largest State Us in the country. I was very successful while there and remain so today. When I applied to schools, I applied to a variety of schools. I was all set to attend a mid-size private college when I visited it. However, on every corner I knew someone from home, youth groups etc. Immediately rushed to visit BIG State U (which was out of state for me), loved it and enrolled.</p>

<p>I do have to say that I was, as a 40 something woman, blown away with the small LAC that we saw yesterday. Another mom on the tour, also an alumni of a big state U, felt the same. This very small LAC has Div 1 athletics with great facilities, something that is important to my son.</p>

<p>My son, however, could not get out of there fast enough. He hated the idea that everyone there knows each other (which was never said on the tour, but the school is smaller than his high school and he feels that way right now about his school) and I think he didn't love the idea that the professors were so involved either.</p>

<p>Last night at dinner, I wondered aloud to my husband if I would have gotten a better education at the LAC. He said, you will never know now and it doesn't matter, What more could you have accomplished... good point.</p>

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<p>Calmom - great post
New Hope: LOL. Somehow, the mcdonalds burger vs fine dining comparison always seem to slip in on these public vs private threads. Makes me want to gag...<br>
Personally, I think it's more like Trader Joes vs. the small local gourmet shop down the street. I walk out of Trader Joes with a basket of terrific stuff at less than half the price of a similar basket at that shop. So, my mangos are branded Trader Joes instead of some fancy brand - who cares? For me Trader Joes is a better fit- thank you. Others around here like to be seen coming out of their cars with the private gourmet shopping bags. And they insist they're food is better than mine!</p>

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<p>
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And they insist they're food is better than mine!

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There IS a difference between colleges, between elementary schools, between high schools, between preschools. Some of the same people here insisting that there is no difference, spent mega amounts of money on a stellar preschool for their child, or moved to an area where the schools score "exemplary" on the state tests so that their child could attend that school district. Why try to pretend that at the college level there is no difference? Calmom says her son got excellent opportunities at his public college even though it is not ranked highly; YES, he did, and there are some wonderful opportunities at all colleges. My kids also learned and succeeded at less than optimal public schools at the k-12 level, and they also had some opportunities available to them because they were "at the top of the heap", so to speak. But there is a difference in their experiences at their private college and at our state colleges and I DO think that it is better!!! That's why I am and was willing to pay my EFC for them to attend. And that's why most of you weren't willing to put your little darlings in "Ms. Lily's Baby Warehouse" and instead put them in NAEYC-accredited preschools or Montessori schools or Waldorf schools..... :eek:</p>

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<p>No, sorry, their food is NOT better (egads, sorry about using "they're" in my original post- must have been sleepy!)
I agree that the experience is different. No doubt. I have to wait in lines at TJs. And there's no butcher to butterfly my roast. And they run out of things if I go late. But the mangos are the same - without the brand and without the hand holding and personal attention. This is a better fit for ME because I really want to to watch my spending. I don't want to buy my mangos on credit.
So no, I absolutely don't believe that going private buys a better education. Different, maybe, but not better. I actually might argue that it's better fit for ME to be in a situation where I have to make my own opportunities. Better training for real life. And BTW, I know how to butterfly a roast too...good thing.<br>
So, I am NOT arguing that public is better than private. Or private is better than public. Or even that they're the SAME. But if you say you are willing to pay for a BETTER education at a private, what does that mean for parents of public school kids? That we're OK with "warehousing" our darlings so save some dollars? Come on. I guess it helps to think that way if you're shelling out big bucks. Private little perfect academic worlds vs huge impersonal factories. Well, it's not that simple. At least not in MY state where there are some really good public options.</p>

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<p>
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But if you say you are willing to pay for a BETTER education at a private, what does that mean for parents of public school kids? That we're OK with "warehousing" our darlings so save some dollars?

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Your words, not mine. Why would I pay more for them to go to THEIR private school, when I could have sent one to University of Florida and one to Texas Tech for free (and could have sent them to other schools for free, if they had bothered to apply)? Because I wanted to send them to the best school for THEM and Tech, and UF, and UT-Austin were not the best school for them - even with honors engineering and UT-Plan II. Because the private school they attend offers fabulous access to resources and professors (1:5 faculty/student ratio) for ALL students, not just the top-of-the-heap go-getters. Because I wanted them to have an intense 4-year experience surrounded by other extremely bright students in a lovely residential setting complete with all the trappings and traditions. Because, with the help of good financial aid program, I can afford to. I don't spend ANY money on cosmetics, haircuts, cable TV and my food and clothes are plain. My choice, my money. Your choice, your money. In the case of MY kids, and the case of THEIR school, it makes sense for us. YMMV.</p>

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Calmom says her son got excellent opportunities at his public college even though it is not ranked highly; YES, he did, and there are some wonderful opportunities at all colleges..... But there is a difference in their experiences at their private college and at our state colleges and I DO think that it is better!!!

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I don't think you get it. My son had an OPPORTUNITY at a CSU (tuition ~$3500 per year) that was only offered to CSU students and is unparalleled. He could not have gotten the same if he had been at a private college or a UC. If there is anything comparable, I don't know of it. In terms of his major & career interests, this potentially provides him with a huge boost because of the connections he made. </p>

<p>In hindsight, he is much better off for having chosen to go to that particular CSU because of what he ended up finding there. In hindsight, the pricey LAC was a huge waste of money and although I assume he has a few fond memories and has maintained a couple of friendship, as a parent I cannot name a single long-term benefit that he got from attending there. </p>

<p>He did not choose the CSU looking for this opportunity - he did not even know it existed - so I'm not saying, "oh, the CSU is better because it designates 1 student per year out of 5000 for program X" -- I am saying that once my son got to the CSU and looked around, he was surrounded by a lot of low hanging fruit. Was it "better" than pricey, private LAC? For him, definitely. Did pricey, private LAC offer smaller classes with higher qualified profs and more rigorous academic standards? Definitely... but my son got frustrated with the small classes and intimate setting of the LAC over time. Did pricey, private LAC offer similar opportunities? No. It offered a different set of opportunities. </p>

<p>You think one is "better" than the other for a variety of reasons, and you are entitled to your opinion. But I am saying you are mistaken... and I am saying that as the parent of one kid who graduate from a CSU and another kid taking classes at prestigious private, Ivy-caliber college. The problem is that, since you don't have any kids opportunity-shopping at the colleges you perceive as being "lesser" than the ones you think are "better"... you don't know what is there. How can you? It's the "Green Eggs and Ham" syndrome by proxy - you "know" your kid won't like them here or there, your kid won't like them anywhere - so your kid never tries them and persists through life on the assumption that the choices you made were "better."</p>

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<p>Toneranger, what does "butterfly a roast" mean? </p>

<p>If I had attended private schools rather than public, would I know the answer to that question?</p>

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<p>Please get off your high horse. Really.
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Was it "better" than pricey, private LAC? For him, definitely.

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So why are we arguing? You are telling me that your kid's public college was better for him. If you can say that, why can't I say my kids' college is/was better for them? You are judging your kid's experience in hindsight, and I am judging mine in hindsight. DD got an excellent and intense education, had a great time on campus, has close ties with many profs, and after graduating with a BA w/ honors is now studying abroad for a year in Turkey on a grant funded by her college. DS is having an intense and wonderful time at this university now, too.
This is what I said above
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But there is a difference in their experiences at their private college and at our state colleges and I DO think that it is better!!!

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Notice I said "their" private college, not all private colleges.
And btw, I went to a low-ranked public university. I know what the level of courses was like, and I know what the campus atmosphere was like. I had friends and I had opportunities - but classes outside my major were not much above a high school level. I also attended UT-Austin, where I got a very mediocre graduate education, and I attended a small private university where the standards were very low, but I got the certificate I needed and I attended the local community college.
And Calmom - I sent my kids to public schools for 13 years KNOWING it was not an optimal fit. I choose to send them to a better fit now. My money, my choice.</p>

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<p>Calmom, like most other things- I think it depends. And I am not one who believes that I am so damn discerning and my kid is so special that it depends. There are many other factors.</p>

<p>We paid full freight at MIT. We were unwilling to seriously consider many of the fine private U's that our quite knowledgeable GC recommended as "safeties" for our son. Why? The things that would have made those U's a great fit for other kids just didn't mean all that much for our kid and us at the end of the day. So faced with paying full freight at a private, middle of the road U or going to a similarly sized State U engineering program (not our state's, unfortunately, but a nearby one) we encouraged our kid to kick the tires on a range of public U options. Which he did. If we lived in Michigan or Illinois or California or Missouri, where the state U engineering programs are powerhouses- it would have been a no-brainer to go instate. When you are paying a huge premium to attend someone else's state U-- and the margin between that option and a place like MIT (which had some elements of fit that we all agreed were worth paying for) then I don't think it's elitist to consider a range of privates along with the publics- with fit and cost being a huge consideration and perhaps trade-off.</p>

<p>My cousins kid is now at her third SUNY. They worry about her slogging through enough courses to get enough credits to get the heck out of college before the money runs dry. I have no doubt that the kid would have finished in four years at some of the private colleges she was accepted to (and which were much better "fits' in my opinion but I don't get to have an opinion about how other people educate their kids or spend their money). Is this relevant? Who knows-- but to me, if your resources are finite and you live in a high cost state like NY, you need to assess whether your kid can actually hack it at Binghamton or Albany (both fine schools-- but experientally quite different from a Wesleyan or Conn. College or Mt Holyoke) before you assume that "fit" is for rich folks.</p>

<p>It may be elitist- but we had a short list of schools which we felt was worth the ticket price-- and our son ended up at MIT and loved it. He's several years out; there's no question he took advantage of some wonderful resources, but we have no doubt he'd have found other equally wonderful resources at another U- public or private. We just didn't think that the elements of "fit" at some of the private U's would be worth the differential vs. the publics.</p>

<p>I don't think Dad and the others are claiming that the kid is such a hothouse flower that they had to be at a private U- just that at the end of the day, some elements of "fit" are worth paying for (if you have it) and some are not.</p>

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I agree with you. Though I have to add that my daughter at pricey/prestige school has really had to make her own opportunities as well -- not that the school doesn't offer some great things. It's just what she went out and found on her own is even better.</p>

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<p>LOL- Calmom- here are some instructions. I went to lower level public but I like to cook!
How</a> to butterfly a boneless pork loin — Matthew Card's technique and a recipe :: by Culinate staff :: Culinate</p>

<p>Amom...it must feel really good that your kids made choices that turned out well...really... no sarcasm here. Not sure how you know for sure that they were better than, for example, honors at UT...but it really doesn't matter. For me, I'm happy that my s is doing well at his choice...a big public. But I don't claim that it was a better choice than the long list of schools he considered. How would I know that? How do I compare with the path not taken? It's good for him where he is..and that's all that counts.</p>

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<p>Blossom, I'm always hearing this stories about kids who take a long time to graduate at public universities- but my own experience has been that the public U's are particularly generous with AP credit. Often an AP score of "3" is enough to exempt the student from introductory credit and the school may award quite a lot of unit hours. (Years ago I actually entered with +20 quarter hours of credit for only 2 AP classes, with scores of 3. My son transferred to a CSU with sophomore standing but when he was able to get his AP scores reported, it put him almost a year ahead).</p>

<p>And I remember attending college with very bright students who chose to load up an extra credit hours - maybe up to 26 units a semester, while other students were signing up for 15. I chose to take it easier, resting on the cushion of my AP credit -- but when my son transferred to the CSU the first thing he did was load up... while also employed in a half-time position off campus. </p>

<p>One mistake people make is that they aren't comparing equivalent students. Did your cousin's kid who is "slogging" her way through a SUNY have the GPA and test scores to get into Wesleyen? </p>

<p>Obviously my son's great experience at a CSU comes in part because when he got there, he clearly was smarter than the average bear. Same with my experience long ago at a UC campus -- I didn't "slog", I "breezed". But that also meant that I had access to higher level courses from the start; I ended up writing my own major so I could pick and choose among the courses I wanted. My son successfully petitioned his department head at the CSU to waive several introductory course requirements to let him take more advanced courses instead. My daughter's private college also offers a lot of opportunities, but she chafes at what she perceives as inflexibility about basic requirements for a major -- I think its sometimes a lot easier for a student to call their own shots when they are perceived by others as being one of the best & brightest. </p>

<p>But that doesn't mean that the students are isolated in a "sea of indifference" (to use TheDad's phrase.) There are a lot of very bright, capable students at public colleges... and what is more, they often find themselves in the same classes with other, similarly capable and involved students. </p>

<p>My observation is that people also make the same mistake when evaluating elementary and high schools. So many people look at the average standardized test score as an indication of the overall quality of a high school. But I figured all along that those scores reflected the ability of the kids coming in, not the quality of the school. And sure enough, my kids ended up on honors & AP tracks in high school. The fact that 3/4 or more of the students at their schools were not on similar tracks really didn't hurt them. </p>

<p>So I think an argument could be made that the students at the bottom end of the spectrum would do better in a smaller, more supportive educational environment - it certainly is easy to fall through the cracks at a large public U. But those aren't the kids faced with the choice -- its the top-end kids who have all the choices. And I think the parents of those kids are often eschewing the very environment where their kids could potentially have the greatest opportunity, precisely because the college is not a "fit" and their kid would stand out in a positive way. And the kids whose parents might perceive as being the most in need of support, perhaps because the kids seems shy or hesitant to advocate for themselves -- may be the ones who would gain the most from being in an environment where they have that advantage.</p>

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<p>Toneranger, is that something only done with a pork roast? (I'm Jewish, my mother taught me only chicken and brisket.).</p>

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<p>calmom: i butterfly pork and beef roasts. only for special occasions though :)</p>

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<p>Sounds like the CSU was a good "fit" for him.</p>