Is "fit" over-emphasized?

Parents Forum
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<p>The only thing I ever butterfly is lamb. Marinate it in olive oil, lemon and rosemary and put it on the grill - delicious!</p>

<p>But back to the subject...</p>

<p>We chose a good enough high school - if you just look at the average statistics, it looks pretty average, but if you look at where the top kids end up, or the results of Science Olympiad (we're going to States!), or Science Research, we're not bad at all. </p>

<p>Someone on this thread mentioned that state colleges can be generous with their AP credits, so was Carnegie Mellon. Mathson got credit for every one he took. He could easily graduate in three years, or stay and get a masters in four. </p>

<p>I agree that go-getting top ranked kids will probably do well anywhere and may well do better in bigger ponds. I wonder if calmom's son had been at a bigger school than his first one, he might have been happier. Or perhaps he, like many young men, just needed a few years to grow up and really know what he wanted out of college? </p>

<p>I wish I knew the answers because I have no idea what would be a good fit for S2, and neither does he at this point.</p>

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<p>Not at the OOS Flagship my D attends. Zero credit for APs. Student is permitted to test-out of course. But testing out of Calculus 101 simply means the required math sequence is Calc 102, Calc 201 and Diff. Eq. instead of Calc 101, 102 and 201.</p>

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<p>


But the point is - he did not choose the CSU for "fit". He chose somewhere else that seemed on paper and at a pre-college visit to be the "perfect fit".. and then 5 years down the line was transferring into the CSU because it was the only place he could get in that he could afford. It was the bottom line backup choice while he was trying for other schools, but the college board screwed up and never sent out his SATs, a fact he learned too late. </p>

<p>A week before he got into his car and drove to the CSU campus, he was still debating as to whether to go back to school or to take a job he had been offered. His main rationale at the time was the feeling that if he didn't finish his degree, he'd get caught up in a career and it would never happen. So he went off with the idea in his head that he was just going to do whatever he had to do to finish his degree as quickly as possible. </p>

<p>That's why I said that "fit" is best determined in hindsight. Looking back, we can say -- the CSU was probably the best choice he ever made in his life, because of where it led. But if he had been making decisions based on "fit" rather than pure pragmatism, he might have decided to take on $20K of additional debt to attend an out of state college that he preferred -- or he might have decided to wait a year and try again at his first choice college (which had waitlisted him because of the non-receipt of the SAT scores). </p>

<p>The problem is -- "fit" is an illusion. It's like choosing a vacation spot based on a set of lovely travel brochures, and maybe when you go off on the vacation you have a wonderful time, or maybe you end up losing your luggage and getting sick while traveling and having a miserable time. The amount of time you spend planning and the amount of money you pay generally ends up having very little to do with which vacation turns out perfect and which one is a bust. But at least a vacation is a very short commitment, and something that for most people is a lot less costly than college. </p>

<p>All the parents whose kids chose good "fit" colleges and had it turn out well are patting themselves on the back over what a wonderful choice they made... which is fine ... but then some other parent comes along and asks, "is 'fit' all its cracked up to be"... and for the parent of the prospie its a money decision. That question means, is the extra $150K worth it? And I don't think that it really is -- and I'm not willing to be so cavalier with other people's money. I think there is tremendous pressure put on parents to spend money they can't really afford to spend on the notion that they somehow "owe" it to their kids to finance a 4-year perfect experience -- and I think that's wrong. </p>

<p>I think that some of the kids who go off to their dream colleges are happy, and some don't do so well, and that many of the kids who end up at their safeties or whatever college finances have forced them to settle for do great, and others don't. And when it comes down to it... preconceived notions of "fit" have absolutely nothing to do with it, at least not at the mid-size and larger colleges, because colleges are very diverse places with many different kinds of students and different academic choices along the way. At the smaller colleges its just a potential trap -- if it works out, great -- if not, there's no where to go. At larger colleges there are a lost more options. The kid will tend to gravitate toward the best "fit" they can find after they get there, even if it is counter to "type" for the college.</p>

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<p>Calmom, kids don't fail at Albany and Binghamton because they're too stupid to advocate for themselves- they do it because Albany is rated year after year one of the biggest party schools on the East Coast, and if you're a Freshman in a dorm with a hard core group of partiers and you're taking Freshman Chem with an eye towards med school, you'd better learn to sleep with noise goggles, eyeshades, and ability to wade through other people's body fluids if you're going to make it to your 9 am lab.</p>

<p>Are there highly motivated, academic kids at Albany? Of course. Can an academically ambitious kid find his/her fit there? Of course. Are the guidebooks wrong in declaring it a party school??? I guess so- it would be elitist to suggest otherwise. Your insistence that it is easier to graduate from a public U in four years since they are so generous with AP credits flies in the face of most available data on 4 and 6 year graduation rates... but again, the stats are probably compiled by folks who don't know that U Conn and Yale are essentially the same experience since they're both in CT, or that a kid gets a better education at Towson as he/she would at JHU.</p>

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<p>hmmm, I don't really see anyone arguing that Yale and UConn are the same. The environments are clearly different. But if I'm a top student in Conn, it's unlikely that I'm going to take 6 years to graduate at UConn. I'll likely get in the honors college, find a niche with the high achievers and have a good chance at rising to the top. With the extra dollars I saved, I might take a couple of semesters abroad. Or start a masters degree in the fourth year due to all my AP credits. And who can tell me, for sure, that I will get a BETTER education at Yale? By what definition? Class size? Pedigree of my professors? SAT scores of the kids who sit next to me in class?<br>
Education is a broad concept. If I'm a biology major who gets hooked up with a professor to do research in my freshman year at Towson, I might actually learn more than kids just attending classes at JHU. And I won't be stepping over bodily fluids every night because I'm in an honors or special interest dorm with kids like me.
On AP credits, look at the top kids at good public schools and you won't find many who graduate in 5 or 6 years. Many start a masters degree in their fourth year (in fact, my son's school has a special program to encourage just that and many take advantage). Overall stats on grad rates for the school are not reflective of the top kids. That's what we're talking about here.
Around here, in our fancy neighborhood, people are pretty upfront about their preference for elite privates. "I don't want my kid surrounded by dummies" is a something I hear quite often. Wow. OK. I guess that's a version of fit.</p>

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<p>I don't think fit has anything to do with public verses privates. Or more selective verses less selective.
For example College of Charleston is very different from Clemson which is very different from USCarolina. They would appeal to very different personalities although they remain roughly the same price and selectivy.
Using another scale - Wesleyan, Amherst and Swathmore would fit differently as well.</p>

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<p>I wonder if we're mixing two different issues here -- fit vs. opportunities. I think most large state universities, as well as Tier 2 or 3 schools, offer tremendous opportunities for a top student. Many kids find their niche and do very well at an affordable price or on merit scholarship. Amazing opportunities can be found at most schools, not just at Ivy or super-selective schools.</p>

<p>But I see fit as having more to do with the surrounding students, as well as location, school culture, etc. And I think it is the classmates that many parents are willing to pay a premium for. I don't think they're wrong; I would have done the same if it had been financially possible.</p>

<p>My daughter was accepted to many schools, including super-selective and Ivy. She never had a dream school, but there were two that were good fits for her -- schools full of studious kids like her. Unfortunately, we could not afford them.</p>

<p>So she is at our state flagship, which luckily has one of the very best programs in the country for her major. She is learning a lot, the classes are very hard, and the opportunities have been amazing -- scholarships, awards, leadership opportunities, incredible breadth and depth of classes. Because of the high ranking of her department, recruiters come from all over the country and she was able to get a summer internship after freshman year that paid 12k. Educationally, she is getting everything she would have at the schools she had to turn down -- the quality of coursework and professors easily matches those other schools.</p>

<p>However, the school is a terrible fit for her! It's a party/football school, and she hates all the drinking and has no interest in sports. Her biggest complaint is that she can't find studious people to work with (and her field requires lots of collaborative work.) That is not to say there are not plenty of smart kids; it's just that all the ones she knows don't seem to study or care too much about homework or their GPA. She really wishes she had a group of like-minded kids to work with. </p>

<p>She is not miserable -- she is making the most of where she is at and is doing great. But the culture of the school does not fit her at all and she would have been much happier socially elsewhere.</p>

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<p>anneroku.... my daughter is at a prestigious private college that does cost a lot more, and like yours she has made the most of the academic opportunities presented to her. But like your daughter - the "fit" isn't there socially, though she did not anticipate it. My d. is a very outgoing and independent person, but she has very few friends at her college -- even though she has made some great friendships with kids attending other colleges. (Fortunately she is in a city with many college campuses nearby). She actually is applying to a graduate program that would keep her at the same place for another year -- I just think that along the way she realized that the academic offerings are a lot more important to her than having the college provide her with a happy social life. </p>

<p>The point is: those colleges that you turned down because you couldn't afford them may not have been a great "fit" either. Especially because you would have had a tough time paying -- one huge issue that both my kids found attending pricey elite private schools were that their was a huge gulf between the relatively small cohort of kids from working class backgrounds and a much larger number of very privileged students. One girl in my daughter's first year dorm actually had parents sending her a monthly allowance of $4000. Meanwhile, my d. was focused on studying hard and working 2 or 3 jobs at once, and managing on a tight budget. </p>

<p>So as far as "the classmates" that "parents are willing to pay a premium for".... I'd have to say that turned out to be pretty disappointing. My daughter doesn't seem to have a problem finding people to study with if she feels the need for a study group - so you might be right on that issue -- but my d. does not socialize with the study-buddies, and once the semester is over and they are no longer taking the same courses, they have very little contact.</p>

<p>(I'd note that I kind of knew it was going to be a problem when my d's college hosted a get-together for local, newly admitted students and their parents in my community. My d. seemed to be the most outspoken and outgoing of the group, but there was a huge social gulf -- all of the other students came from private schools, and while my d. was planning a summer with a retail sales job, the chatter among all of the other students and parents was along the lines of "summering on the Riviera" -- there just wasn't much commonality there. My d. felt at college as if everything that came out of her mouth was one huge faux pas -- for example, there's the time she came upon a group of students chatting about their favorite places to shop for clothes, and she made the mistake of mentioning Old Navy.)</p>

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<p>anneroku,
I empathize with your D. I too attended big U Honors program, with all the sports focus, etc. My niche of friends was quite small. I was 1:2 females in honors program in my field. Standing out led to acceptances at all grad schools applied to, but I rushed to get thru in 3 years. Grad school was like sipping a warm cup of tea, and I made friends for life.</p>

<p>Because of my experience, I wanted S to go with his gut on which college to attend. I told him he could transfer if not satisfied. Those were words I never heard, nor did I hear words like "don't worry about cost". My parents regretted their lack of knowledge, which led not just me but siblings to poor "fit" colleges. They had completely different attitude towards grandchildren.</p>

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<p>
[quote]

To TheDad, you wrote:
Quote:
Schools that would not have made "fit" for D:.... any UC or Cal State school.
You don't know that, because your daughter didn't attend those schools.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, yes I do. I've listed some to the qualities that maximized D's experience at her college that are rare or non-existent at the UC's. D considered having UC Irvine as her safety. Dropped it because the students from her high school applying there were the relative plodders who gave up 10 percent in the class ranking and 300 points on the two-scale SAT in comparison. There is a value to going to a school where the overwhelming majority of students are smart and intellectually energized instead of focused on just getting a ticket punched with a degree. (There's also a value to my D in going to a school where quirky independence is a positive value but that's more idiosyncratic...though no less valid in terms of determining "fit.")</p>

<p>It's wonderful that your son had a great experience at CSU. <em>His</em> criteria for fit were obviously not impinged. You can not project that experience on anyone else.</p>

<p>
[quote]

The problem is -- "fit" is an illusion.

[/quote]
No. It. Is. Not. Though anyone who thinks the intellectual atmosphere is equivalent at a CSU with a HYPSM school, a top research U, or a top LAC must think that the grapes are, in fact, sour.</p>

<p>Nor do CSU's provide routine opportunities for undergrad research, placement into programs in Florence, Rome, Paris, Oxford, and Berlin, have established conduits into first-class internships with the Smithsonian, Capitol Hill, a vibrant on-campus housing system that meshes with the academics...actually, how much of CSU housing is on-campus period? High-level performing arts activities for non-majors? (Let me know when a CSU orchestra plays Carnegie Hall or does a multi-concert trip to Sicily or when a math major can participate in a ballet choreography project.) Come to think of it...double majors between non-related areas would be damned difficult for a CSU student. You may airily wave your hand and say that none of this matters and perhaps for your son it didn't. But that's all you can say. You can not impeach the "fit" of others.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I've listed some to the qualities that maximized D's experience at her college that are rare or non-existent at the UC's. D considered having UC Irvine as her safety. Dropped it because the students from her high school applying there were the relative plodders who gave up 10 percent in the class ranking and 300 points on the two-scale SAT in comparison. There is a value to going to a school where the overwhelming majority of students are smart and intellectually energized instead of focused on just getting a ticket punched with a degree.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Not to burst your LAC bubble, but several of D's friends did not apply to your daughter's LAC because some of the girls that they know were admitted to Smith is not in the "smart and intellectual" category. In fact, I remember the opposite word was mentioned.</p>

<p>In fact, I have read your posts before and was impressed with your comments about them and asked my kid to consider Smith and some other women's colleges. But in the end, they did not want the small LAC experience.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
But in the end, they did not want the small LAC experience.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That is absolutely fine, and it's what "fit" is all about. Not One Size Fits All. </p>

<p>Each of my two Ss would not have been happy at the school the other attended. The two schools are different--and so are my Ss in their academic interests, their choices of ECs and general personalities.</p>

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<p>calmom, I agree that expensive, prestigious schools may not end up being a good fit. Even when a student has the freedom to choose any school, it doesn't always work out as expected, and we know kids who have transferred out of their first-choice schools. My daughter did feel that there was a noticeable difference between the student populations at the state flagship and the super-selective schools, and I tend to agree. While there are plenty of brilliant, motivated kids at the state u, they are harder to find in the larger student population. Selective schools seem to have a more uniform group of high achievers. Of course, the class issues you raise are very real, though not so much at the particular schools she was considering. But anyway, we'll never really know since she had to turn those other schools down.</p>

<p>The social issues for my daughter at her poor-fit school do have some negative educational repercussions -- her major requires a lot of group projects and her experience would be much more positive if there were a larger number of classmates who shared her drive.</p>

<p>Your daughter sounds very mature to have "realized that the academic offerings are a lot more important to her than having the college provide her with a happy social life." I agree with this, and I am hoping that the academics will ultimately outweigh the negative social aspects for my daughter.</p>

<p>bookworm, thanks for your post. Your positive grad school experience sounds like a great outcome after your undergrad years. I do wish we could have told our kids "don't worry about cost," but it was financially impossible. I think our own experiences naturally color our advice to our kids. I attended an Ivy that was a good school overall, just not in my major. So I have emphasized the importance of a strong department more than my parents ever did (not their fault -- we were pretty unaware of these things, and it was much harder to evaluate back then without the help of the internet.)</p>

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<p>I think the concept of "fit" is more important if you are looking at private schools. My experience with large state universities and land grant colleges is that you will "fit" at either the state flagship or the state "cow college" and have a wonderful experience unless you are somewhere on either tail of the bell curve. The whole point of those schools is there is something for everybody as long as they can sort roughly between "university" (whatever that is) and "ag/mechanical" (whatever THAT is) although there is a lot of crossover and equal opportunity now that may not have been there historically. Some of the most happy and cosseted students at the state land grant college are the English and history majors because there is a faculty there that is underutilized and as a result lots of personal attention for the few that declare a liberal arts major at a land grant college.</p>

<p>All that being said, the concept of "fit" is essentially a problem of extreme privilege. College, especially when you go away to school, is uncomfortable and alienating. The whole point is to bring a student out of his or her comfort zone. College students are intensely peer driven and having to completely rebuild one's peer network after the cozy four years of high school is traumatic--even for those who make friends easily the sense is that "my real friends"" are back home and these new "friends" are essentially strangers. </p>

<p>At most schools, the academic rigor is far above what was expected in high school so just at the time the freshman is thinking they have no friends, they are getting probably the most negative feedback in their lives about their academic ability.</p>

<p>I still remember my wonderful capable daughter who went off to a school with a fabulous reputation for close-knit community and support calling me in tears asking me why "all adults lied about how college is the best experience of your life." I was shocked and sad and then I started improvising and I told her it was because none of us remember the first semester--it was too painful and we block it out. Our memories are of the last warm years when we felt connected, had friends, had found our academic niche. </p>

<p>In terms of what is usually thought of as "fit" in that she was comfortable early on, her school was a poor "fit." But in terms of challenging her beliefs, encouraging her to discover what was really meaningful to her, prodding her academically, and in time giving her a network of friends who will endure forever--the school is a "fit." The problem is that if she were to have decided as a freshman, she would never have thought of it as a fit--it is only now the last half of Sophomore year that she understands what "fit" is about--and "fit" can mean that you are really unhappy for awhile.</p>

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You are very, very mistaken there.</p>

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<p>


</p>

<p>I think there's a lot of wisdom here. "Fit" is more important at smaller schools which I do think tend to develop unique personalities and cultures. If you're in tune with it, it can be fantastic; if not, you'll stick out like a sore thumb. But public universities, on the other hand, are not so easily pigeon-holed. They're made up of all kinds. It's more about finding a "niche" within the university, rather than a "fit" with the school as a whole.</p>

<p>My D is into small schools and finding the right "fit." I'm totally supportive even though I went to a big state flagship where I found---and mostly built---my "niche." But what worked for me won't necessarily work for her, or vice versa. I do have some concern that at 17, when she'll be choosing a college for real, she may not be sufficiently self-aware and sufficiently developed in her tastes and preferences to so definitively decide on the right "fit." It could all turn out to be horribly wrong for her once she gets there. But I guess I'm willing to give her that chance, and learn for herself. In the meantime, though, I'm going to be pushing her to be critically self-evaluative, to know what really matters to her, and why. and that self-reflective process is, in my judgment, not a bad thing, wherever it leads.</p>

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Actually, unfortunately, that's a myth too. "Higher percentage"... yes. "Uniform group" -- no.</p>

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<p>Further response to post #130:</p>

<p>Undergraduate Research</p>

<p>TheDad wrote: Nor do CSU's provide routine opportunities for undergrad research</p>

<p>Actually, undergraduate research is required for many science majors at various CSU campuses. Here are some links concerning CSU undergraduate research: </p>

<ul>
<li><p>CSUPERB -CSU Program for Education and Research in Biotechnology
California</a> State University Program for Education and Research in Biotechnology (CSUPERB) | CSU (provides grant funding at all CSU campuses; involves students and faculty from Biology, Chemistry, Engineering, Agriculture, Business, Math and Computer Science.</p></li>
<li><p>NSF-funded programs for CSU research for undergrads:
Research</a> Experiences for Undergraduates
The</a> NSF-REU Program at CSU Fullerton</p></li>
</ul>

<p>*CEA-CREST Cea-Crest[/url</a>] (Cal State LA, Interdisciplinary Research Environmental Sciences - see [url=<a href="http://chaffee.qrc.com/nsf/ehr/crestmaps/index.cfm%5DCREST">http://chaffee.qrc.com/nsf/ehr/crestmaps/index.cfm]CREST</a> Active Award Information for other CREST research centers nationwide) </p>

<ul>
<li><p>Coral Sea Research Vessel
[HSU</a> Marine Laboratory | Research Vessel<a href="%22Humboldt%20State%20is%20the%20only%20university%20in%20the%20United%20States%20with%20both%20a%20fully-equipped%20marine%20lab%20and%20a%20true%20oceanic%20research%20vessel%20(the%2090-foot%20RV%20Coral%20Sea)%20dedicated%20solely%20to%20undergraduate%20research.%22">/url</a></p></li>
<li><p>Astronomy:
[url=<a href="http://www.humboldt.edu/%7Ehumboldt/programs/facilities%5DResearch"&gt;http://www.humboldt.edu/~humboldt/programs/facilities]Research&lt;/a> Facilities • Humboldt State University<a href="HSU%C2%92s%20Fickle%20Hill%20observatory%20is%20the%20only%20university%20observatory%20in%20California%20dedicated%20to%20undergraduate%20research.">/url</a>
[url=<a href="http://mintaka.sdsu.edu/reu.program.html%5DSummer"&gt;http://mintaka.sdsu.edu/reu.program.html]Summer&lt;/a> Research Experiences for Undergraduates at San Diego State University<a href="California%20State%20University%20Undergraduate%20Research%20Experiences%20in%20Astronomy%20at%20San%20Diego%20State%20University">/url</a></p></li>
</ul>

<p>It is also interesting to go to the NSF site at [url=<a href="http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/%5DNSF"&gt;http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/]NSF&lt;/a> - Award Search - Awardee Information](<a href="http://www.humboldt.edu/%7Emarinelb/research_vessel%5DHSU"&gt;http://www.humboldt.edu/~marinelb/research_vessel) and search the records for research grant awards -- a search with the words "California State" in the organization field yields 1,130 awards - but this is not a complete list, because of some CSU naming conventions. (You would want to do separate searches for Humboldt, Sonoma State and for Cal Poly to pick up awards for some of the CSU's that do not have the word "California" spelled out in their name). </p>

<p>Study Abroad</p>

<p>TheDad wrote: Nor do CSU's provide ...placement into programs in Florence, Rome, Paris, Oxford, and Berlin</p>

<p>CSU Study Abroad (International Programs):
International Programs: Programs</a> | Prospective Students | International Programs | CSU
& Exchange Partners: Exchange</a> Partners | International Programs | CSU</p>

<p>CSU has established study abroad programs in the following countries: </p>

<p>Australia - Canada - Chile - China - Denmark - France - Germany - Ghana - Israel - Italy - Japan - Korea - Mexico - New Zealand - South Africa - Sweden - Taiwan - United Kingdom </p>

<p>This includes a CSU study center in Florence (see Italy</a> | Programs | Prospective Students | International Programs | CSU ), and programs in both Paris and Aix-en-Provence. There are multiple programs to choose from in most of the listed countries. </p>

<p>Internships:</p>

<p>TheDad wrote: Nor do CSU's provide ...conduits into first-class internships with the Smithsonian, Capitol Hill</p>

<p>I don't know about the Smithsonian, but I don't think anything beats the Panetta Institute Congressional Internship (Cal State Monterey) program -- see: Congressional</a> Intern Training -- which provides training, housing & stipends for semester long internships; is open only to CSU students and students at 2 private Catholic universities; and arranges for the students to meet regularly with top government officials. (examples: cabinet secretary, white house chief of staff) </p>

<hr>

<p>I am not posting the above to get into a discussion as to what is better. </p>

<p>I just thought that the claim that CSU students don't have access to xxxxx was so patently ridiculous and ill-informed that it needed a response -- and I am sure that if I spent time Googling other public universities I would find the same thing. I also know that the most impressive dance facilities my daughter ever used were at CSU Long Beach -- (and she's practiced at studios at places like ABT in NY) CSU Northridge seems to have a particularly strong music department - see CSUN</a> Department of Music -- Actually, since my daughter attended an arts high school I have long been aware that that many of the strongest arts, music, and dance programs are at public universities. Several of my daughter's California classmates from her dance program ended up at SUNY Purchase. (This is in response to TheDad's very snide remarks about CSU's arts programs). </p>

<p>Anyone who is under the illusion that a student has to attend a private college to have study abroad opportunities, access to internships, research opportunities, access to strong arts programs, etc. has simply been sold a bill of goods. I realize that it is excellent marketing for the colleges to emphasize these opportunities -- but it is poor research on the part of parents & prospective students to assume that this is something unique to private or more expensive schools. If "fit" is defined as having access to these particular amenities -- as opposed to something unique about campus culture or specific faculty members, for example -- then "fit" is a very weak criteria indeed.</p>

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<p>At our college tours this weekend, we visited two schools on opposite ends of many spectrums, one big State U and one small LAC.</p>

<p>What struck me was how similar their "spiel" was about study abroad and how hard both schools pushed it. (Very few students did this back in my day.)</p>

<p>Both had similar language and philosophy about internships (which from my big state U back in the day I managed to work for both a Governor and a Congressperson (actually 2) for internships.</p>

<p>I have friends who have children at big state Us and private colleges who aren't motivated to do anything above the minimum. From both privates and state us, these students are having a hard time with the next step in life.</p>

<p>At the same time, in our business we employ people that are straight out of high school on occasion. Within a few years, if they are still with us, we insist they enter community college and then onto a four year state school. These young people are both highly motivated and highly successful. They often take a full load and work for us full time (nearly full time -- we do give them a break). They don't necessarily have the traditional college experience but they get the degree(s) they need to continue onto a successful professional life.</p>

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<p>Mombot:</p>

<p>In many ways, you are right that at a large state uni, a student is bound to find kindred spirits and that there are communities for every kind of students. For many students, however, the size of a typical state uni is the cause of lack of fit, just as the small size of many LACs is the cause of lack of fit for others.<br>
S1 wanted a LAC but balked at some that were smaller than his hs and were very isolated. S2 would have liked a LAC but needed to take graduate courses so ended up at a mid-sized research university. And fit is not just about size. I recently heard of a student who is currently in one of the very top graduate programs at a very top university but is finding its bucolic setting not to his liking. Neither my Ss would have been happy at a party school or one that was dominated by sports.</p>