Is "fit" over-emphasized?

<p>
[quote]
Neither my Ss would have been happy at a party school or one that was dominated by sports.

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I can see some teensy college fitting this sort of generalization, but I have a hard time seeing how one can apply it to a large university. I know that the UC I attended had very active sports programs, because there was a sports page (or section) in the campus newspaper.... but I never went to a college sporting event and I don't remember anyone who participated in athletics other than intramural sports or going to the campus bowling alley. It makes good copy for the Princeton Review book to rank "party schools" -- but there is a lot of other things going on at schools with those reputations.</p>

<p>(Actually, I think one reason for this is that athletes might tend to be placed in different housing... which would explain why everyone in my dorm was very distinctly un-athletic. I think I was living in the artsy / pothead/ vegetarian / treehugger dorm on what is perceived by outsiders as a fairly conservative campus. At some point along the line we even went to "war" with a dorm where all the students dressed a lot better than we did; it involved the theft of various insignia and a lot of water balloons).</p>

<p>I do think that its a good idea for a student to scout out the reputations of various dorms before signing up for housing; there definitely does seem to be a dorm culture, with some dorms trending more toward "Animal House" -- so it can be a problem if a student goes to a college that doesn't give much of a choice in housing. </p>

<p>Other than that my experience is very much in line with Mombot's. Large universities are incredibly diverse places.</p>

<p>I will say that there is an area of "fit" that I found was very important in college, but is not something that I have ever seen mentioned on CC or explored by a high school student in looking at colleges. That is, I found that each department had a very distinct internal culture -- some were very rigid and authoritarian, some were very loose. I would have been a poli sci major but for the stone-age attitudes of the people who ran the department (among other things, they fired my favorite teacher because of his unorthodox but very popular teaching style -- he engaged and challenged students, which must have violated some official department policy requiring that all lectures be delivered in a monotone). I found that the coolest profs were over in the rhetoric dept -- you know it was a great place the minute you walked in the door -- but the college didn't actually offer a rhetoric major. So I ended up off in the write-your-own-major department where most of the free-spirited, independent types with undefined academic goals tended to find themselves. </p>

<p>So I would encourage students who are fairly certain what they want to major in to actually visit the campuses where they plan to study and try to meet some profs or students in their prospective major. It wouldn't have worked for anyone in my family since we all ended up switching to different majors than what we had originally intended ... but it was pretty amazing to me at the time how very different the atmosphere could be from one department to the other. My d. also has had some opportunity to observe the same thing, especially because she is on a shared campus and can see the differences among departments at 2 separate colleges where the same subject is taught.</p>

<p>Focusing on fit does not mean that mistakes won't be made. The experience of calmom's children suggests that despite looking seriously for fit, mistakes were indeed made; not that fit does not matter. It does not have to be perfect, however, to be quite acceptable. Nor does it mean that only one particular institution will address all the desiderata of a particular student.</p>

<p>As for sports-dominated large state unis, H and I were at one for a time. We know what it feels like for the whole town, not just the uni, to be dominated by sports. sure, a couch potato can find plenty of other couch potatoes. But it's a bit like being someone who never watches TV and is shut out of discussions of whatever TV program is popular at the moment.</p>

<p>Ok, I'll make a comment on big sport U's. My son goes to one. I went to a big public U where sports were NOT big.
I have attended the football games at my son's U and I can see how die hard non-sports fans might be annoyed. It really does dominate the scene. My H and I both like sports so we thought it was a blast. And my s has always been a sports fan so it's a good fit.
One thing I will say, the focus on the football team creates an incredible spirit of pride on campus. It seems like everyone wheres the school clothes and is proud to be there. Such a big difference from where I went. I see this as a positive, but maybe I wouldn't if was...let's say...I was a gothic who hates sports. Yeah, I might find a niche, but I might also want to exit that whole scene on football weekends! Or perhaps not attend the school at all....</p>

<p>Some of the posters arguing for "fit" are also using phrases like "mediocre" LACs. They are not arguing for fit, they are arguing for a pecking order among schools. If it's all about "fit," then there are no mediocre schools -- they will "fit" someone.
Calmom -- I think you're comment about fit only being apparent in hindsight is the most perceptive on this whole thread and it seems to be ignored by those arguing against you.</p>

<p>Sometimes it's the kids weaknesses that may determine fit.</p>

<p>One friend's son is loud and a bit abrasive. He tends to "wear out" his friends. Going to a larger college would probably be better, as it would be difficult to get a fresh start with a 1200 kid LAC.</p>

<p>Another's actually has trouble recognizing faces. It takes him a while to sort people out, using cues from voice, stature, etc. In this case, the smaller the better!</p>

<p>A third, while very bright, is very non-competitive or aggressive. A smaller, less selective school where he is "invited" to pursue various opportunities is giving him a better experience than one where he would have to compete/seek the same opportunities out.</p>

<p>Dbwes - sometimes Calmom argues that fit is apparent in hindsight, and sometimes she argues that the whole idea of fit is an illusion. She has suggested that her son found an excellent fit at a large public school and that her daughter found an okay fit at an elite private school, and (therefore?) it is fruitless to look for fit at all. It's a pretty confusing mishmash. I think many of us are simply arguing that good fit exists, not that you can reliably determine it ahead of time.</p>

<p>I got a chuckle out of marite's post. The level of my family's commitment to sports is much more intrusive on my life than the sports culture ever was in college, and I agree that it can cause one to be left out of conversations and have disagreements about what constitutes fun. It is just one more factor to consider and weigh against the alternatives, not that I had any choice on whether to have only boys. </p>

<p>I attended a session at an accounting conference once on how to value a scenic view, which is a reminder that virtually everything can be reduced to a quantitative value, if desired. In the public sector, many decisions require a quantitative cost-benefit analysis to be attached to proposed legislation, so it's not an option to decide a human life or clean water or whatever is "priceless." </p>

<p>When choosing a college, the first challenge is determine what factors the individual student and his family consider to be most important in terms of fit. It's clear that a wide a variety of learning environments are available at a wide variety of price points. The second challenge is to assign some sort of value to the various elements of fit to find the best financial solution. I see a lot of threads on cc that advise against going into debt for a dream school, but the optimal solution should be more complex than debt or no debt, in my view. I don't choose to buy everything I can afford. The value of spending savings (or going into debt) on college x versus college y requires each family to create their own cost-benefit analysis balancing all of the pros and cons, even if it's only done on a subconscious level.</p>

<p>Agree with calreader.<br>
Eighteen-year olds don't always know what they want either in terms of major or social scene. If they find themselves unhappy at the school they attend, it does not mean that their attempt to find a good fit was misguided; it meant that either they did not truly know their minds and personalities or were misled by appearances.</p>

<p>Heck, I've tried shoes in stores, walked around in them a bit then, after buying them, found that they did not quite fit either my feet or my life-style. Does it mean that fit does not matter? NO! Au contraire. It happens that I have very special needs when it comes to shoes. Others would have a much easier time being happy with a wider range of shoes. But then, I am not "others."</p>

<p>TheAnalyst: I have two boys, but without being goths, they are not at all into sports. :) I think your way of approaching the issue is very wise.</p>

<p>It seems to me that Calmom is advocating for a more open-minded process in evaluating fit - and a recognition of the flaws inherent in trying to assess fit at such a young age.
For example, I often see kids ruling out big schools without even visiting. Yet, I know kids who were "forced" to go to big schools due to finances but ended up finding a small community within and loving it.<br>
Regarding sports: I have one boy. My H came from a family of 4 boys. I had 3 brothers. A long time ago, I decided, if you can't beat em, join em. We go to baseball and football games together. Invite friends over and watch big games on TV. It's fun. My son knows quite a few "converts" at his big football U - kids who NEVER thought they would be seen at a football game. And they love it now. It happens...</p>

<p>I went to a large U..lots to do..I was thinking my son might fit in better with a smaller school. I drove by Clark University the other day in Worcester. I didn't realize how small some of these colleges are. I was shocked. I kept driving around the area thinking I must be missing the main "campus" area. This definitely changed my opinions some and now I understand why visiting schools is so important. </p>

<p>From just my drive by, I'm not sure sending my kids to a smaller college is the right thing now. They would miss out on so much that I had in college, but the advantages I don't know because I have nothing to compare to...</p>

<p>It happens, sure. But why force it if you don't have to? It's not as if it's absolutely necessary for your well-being (unless, you decide to stay married. :)) </p>

<p>On the larger point, it's true that kids don't always know how to evaluate fit, especially for a period of four years. But it does not undermine the value of fit. Nor does it mean that only one school or one type of school will provide a good fit. In fact, I'd say that if a student has trouble choosing among different schools, that student would probably thrive at any of them.
Fit was very important for S2 and eliminated quite a large number of excellent schools. But he would have been happy at a number of schools similar to the one he is attending.</p>

<p>I must confess that I was converted to a sports fan at a very young age. I was huge Mets fan starting around age 9. Listened to the games on the radio! Now, of course, rooting for that particular team doesn't really work in our house right now. That's all right...I love those Phils now. And didn't like football either, but I'm cool with it now. H is thrilled.
On visiting, I think it's VERY important. Our large state flagship moved up on the list after a visit. Lots of folks around here dismiss it out of turn... don't even visit...too BIG. Some express amazement that we "sent" our high achieving son there. One actually asked us if we were forced to go for the cheapest school. LOL. His choice -with money leftover for an advanced degree. I say...check it out...and then you can choose to dismiss it if you'd like. How can you assess fit otherwise?</p>

<p>Geeps, your story about driving around Clark reminds me of when we dropped our daughter off at college in August. She had visited the school, but we had never seen it. I don't think my husband had read the description of the school very carefully - he knew it was rural, but he's from a country where rural still means there are lots of villages. We were arriving late at night, driving for 45 minutes from the airport on an unfamiliar, two-lane country road with forest on both sides. We saw no signs of life but an occasional deer.</p>

<p>Finally we got to our destination, but where was the college? It looked isolated and small. No town. My husband felt we had made a terrible mistake and wondered if it was too late to back out. (Yep.) Then we saw one building lit up and people were coming out from an event, so that was a little better. And by daylight it was clear that the campus had more than the handful of buildings we had seen the night before, but it is still pretty compact.</p>

<p>So far it's working out well for our kid, but it would probably drive my husband crazy to go there :).</p>

<p>Calreader, re your post #146, I never said the things you claim. ("She has suggested that her son found an excellent fit at a large public school and that her daughter found an okay fit at an elite private school") I said that my son did really well at a college that was not selected for "fit" and my daughter is doing well at a college that clearly is not a good "fit". It is possible to do really well at places that aren't good "fits".</p>

<p>You (and others) have turned my words around to somehow mean, if my kids are doing well, then the college must be a "fit". To the extent I say that "fit" can be evaluated only in hindsight, then I suppose it is o.k. to look at it -- as long as we get to redefine "fit" in the end to mean something different than what we meant in the beginning. </p>

<p>But I think that any fair look at things would still require the conclusion that the best "fit" school for my son was the one he messed up during the first go-round. The fact that he messed up doesn't make the school less of a fit. (If I buy a pair of running shoes that fit perfectly, run a race, and come in last ... it is not he fault of the shoes, nor does it mean they didn't fit).</p>

<p>On the topic of kids not knowing how to evaluate fit, I remember visiting one campus as a high school senior. Kids on that campus (in upstate NY in the 1970s) had beards and for some reason that felt so threatening that I decided I wasn't ready for college at all. So, I enlisted. Not sure why that felt like a safer option (except beards weren't permitted in the Air Force).</p>

<p>I apologize for my stereotype on boys and sports. I do realize not all boys are sports fanatics. The fact that my husband was heavily into sports when we were dating should have been recognized as a leading indicator that my children (boys or girls) would be at higher risk of developing similar traits than the general population. Sometimes my analytic abilities fail me, even now. But, mistakes are OK. If it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger.</p>

<p>
[quote]

On the larger point, it's true that kids don't always know how to evaluate fit, especially for a period of four years. But it does not undermine the value of fit. Nor does it mean that only one school or one type of school will provide a good fit. In fact, I'd say that if a student has trouble choosing among different schools, that student would probably thrive at any of them.

[/quote]
Cheers and whistles for Marite...I've been doing that for years.</p>

<p>[list of Cal State research & internships] provided by Cal Mom</p>

<p>Oh fiddlesticks. Comparing apples and cowpies. </p>

<p>How <em>many</em> students at a given Cal State get involved with research in one or two programs that might be available? Compared to options in scores of disciplines. </p>

<p>What percentage of students spend significant time off campus for a study abroad and semester-long internships? 2/3 of my D's junior class was "away." Four abroad programs run by the school in Florence, Paris, Geneva, and Hamburg, plus participant of small consortiums running programs in India, Mexico, Japan, and Spain, plus sponsorship in scores of other opportunities from Hungary to New Zealand, Africa to South America. Most Cal State students never leave the state in the course of their studies. </p>

<p>Given that they have much larger enrollments than LAC's, where are the swarms of students from Cal State Northridge, Cal State Long Beach, or Cal State Dominguez Hills that Calmom would have you believe are routinely placed into great NYC or DC internships?<br>
The Panetta program cited appears to give 25 internships out of a Cal State student population of 450,000...wow. Let's see, on the same scale, D's school should have sent...1/2 of an intern. And the internship program is for 5-1/2 months, not 2-1/2. But I guess to some there's an equivalence.</p>

<p>As for arts and music programs, Calmom is guilty of sloppy reading. The issue isn't whether or not the Cal State and UC schools have them but the ease of which non-majors can participate. </p>

<p>Take ballet and UCLA, not that UCLA's ballet classes are particularly demanding. First dibs is by Dance majors, second by other World Arts & Cultures majors, third priority to other students in the School of Arts & Architecture. By the time you get to majors in the School of Letters & Science, you're plumb out of luck. </p>

<p>(D wanted access to a high-level of ballet, which knocked a number of schools that offered only to intermediate, and in which she could participate as a non-major, which knocked out NYU. Yale didn't offer ballet but the New Haven School of Ballet, a semi-pro outfit, was right across the street from the campus and that would have worked. UC Irvine has the best dance in the UC system but, again, access for non-majors is problematic.)</p>

<p>An LAC or a private school is no guarantee of fit and Marite has made several salient observations. But the notion that a private school's or LAC's fit is illusory reeks of sour grapes and a misplaced sense of egalitarianism.</p>

<p>There is a difference between exception and rule, possible and commonplace, good and spectacular. In many metrics.</p>

<p>
[quote]

On the larger point, it's true that kids don't always know how to evaluate fit, especially for a period of four years. But it does not undermine the value of fit. Nor does it mean that only one school or one type of school will provide a good fit. In fact, I'd say that if a student has trouble choosing among different schools, that student would probably thrive at any of them.

[/quote]
Cheers and whistles for Marite...I've been doing that for years.</p>

<p>[list of Cal State research & internships] provided by Cal Mom</p>

<p>Oh fiddlesticks. Comparing apples and cowpies. </p>

<p>How <em>many</em> students at a given Cal State get involved with research in one or two programs that might be available? Compared to options in scores of disciplines. </p>

<p>What percentage of students spend significant time off campus for a study abroad and semester-long internships? 2/3 of my D's junior class was "away." Four abroad programs run by the school in Florence, Paris, Geneva, and Hamburg, plus participant of small consortiums running programs in India, Mexico, Japan, and Spain, plus sponsorship in scores of other opportunities from Hungary to New Zealand, Africa to South America. Most Cal State students never leave the state in the course of their studies. </p>

<p>Given that they have much larger enrollments than LAC's, where are the swarms of students from Cal State Northridge, Cal State Long Beach, or Cal State Dominguez Hills that Calmom would have you believe are routinely placed into great NYC or DC internships?<br>
The Panetta program cited appears to give 25 internships out of a Cal State student population of 450,000...wow. Let's see, on the same scale, D's school should have sent...1/2 of an intern. And the internship program is for 5-1/2 months, not 2-1/2. But I guess to some there's an equivalence.</p>

<p>As for arts and music programs, Calmom is guilty of sloppy reading. The issue isn't whether or not the Cal State and UC schools have them but the ease of which non-majors can participate. </p>

<p>Take ballet and UCLA, not that UCLA's ballet classes are particularly demanding. First dibs is by Dance majors, second by other World Arts & Cultures majors, third priority to other students in the School of Arts & Architecture. By the time you get to majors in the School of Letters & Science, you're plumb out of luck. </p>

<p>(D wanted access to a high-level of ballet, which knocked a number of schools that offered only to intermediate, and in which she could participate as a non-major, which knocked out NYU. Yale didn't offer ballet but the New Haven School of Ballet, a semi-pro outfit, was right across the street from the campus and that would have worked.)</p>

<p>An LAC or a private school is no guarantee of fit and Marite has made several salient observations. But the notion that a private school's or LAC's fit is illusory reeks of sour grapes and a misplaced sense of egalitarianism.</p>

<p>There is a difference between exception and rule, possible and commonplace, good and spectacular. In many metrics.</p>

<p>
[quote]
When choosing a college, the first challenge is determine what factors the individual student and his family consider to be most important in terms of fit.

[/quote]
Yeppers. It's going to vary with every student and every family. And neither the fact that some make choices that don't work out nor use faulty criteria negates the general concept. And I'm mostly but not completely in accord about TA's use of financial metrics. My own was, "establish fit then figure out how to make it doable." For us, a private LAC was netted out, after grants & scholarships, to be about 20 percent more than a UC...doable. Now, there's a good chance that D would have been in the running for a UC Presidential Scholarship but chickens and hatched eggs and all that and I prefer not knowing.</p>

<p>Dbwes, believing in fit does not mean there aren't mediocre schools. There are a rather large number of private schools, in my opinion, that are like vanity plates for the parents. They send their student to a private school that's not terribly hard to get into and isn't terribly demanding and the student gets a degree and their ticket punched while the parents bask in the perceived prestige of their student going to a private college. Ack, ptui. And then shrug. To me, it's a waste of money. But di gustibus.</p>

<p>Horrible apocryphal story about fit. Student from West Virginia gets admitted to Harvard. Expensive. The parents do their due diligence and compare the catalogs from the two colleges. Pretty much the same courses in both, so they send the son to West Virginia. <glyph of="" banging="" head="" on="" wall=""> </glyph></p>

<p>But, hey, it's less expensive and a good egalitarian state school, right? (Misplaced faux-egalitarianism is just as pernicious and corrupting as making an idol out of rankings.)</p>

<p>calmom, like you I ended up in my major because I liked the professors there - that's not the end of the world either. I know it more from grad school - but both an old boyfriend and my sil dropped out of grad school because they really didn't understand the department politics ahead of time.</p>

<p>I had the same feeling at WPI that geeps had at Clark. There was no there, there. The students there loved it, but it was so SMALL. Even my oldest who said all he cared about was the department didn't need to stay long.</p>

<p>Nothing wrong with WVU. I know a professor who teaches Chinese there. Lots of students from my son's high school get free rides and go there. </p>

<p>Same kid may have received a full ride. Perhaps he's even a sports fan...egads. </p>

<p>Same kid gets paired with the best science professors to do research...starting in his freshman year. </p>

<p>Same kid graduates in 3 years and has tons of money to spend on his dream...med school. </p>

<p>Did anyone ever say Harvard = WVU? No - but some are arguing that top students can have an excellent experience at WVU. It may even be a fit. </p>

<p>Misplaced faux egalitarianism - gag.</p>