<p>I'll have to agree with almost all of what's been said on the "yes, it's wrong" front.</p>
<p>Important point to keep in mind: there's a HUGE difference between the greek scenes in the North and the South. Generally, southern greek life is more in line with what people generally find objectionable (at least what's been expressed in this thread), and more "Traditional". Northern Greek scenes (like in the Big Ten) tend to be more open, and generally less "Fratty".</p>
<p>I never had any use for the Greek scene back in the day, but then the whole Greek system had almost dried up and blown away in the Ann Arbor of the early 1970s. It was so . . . well, "square," we used to call it. </p>
<p>I'd never thought about it much since, and never made any conscious effort to inculcate an anti-Greek attitude in my D, but as we've visited schools over the last year or so, she's picked up on it. She's developed a very strong, visceral negative reaction to the whole Greek scene, and has very little interest in any school where Greek life is a prominent part of the campus social scene. In her view it's too exclusionary, clique-ish, anti-egalitarian, and divisive. She much prefers the egalitarian, inclusive, community-minded, all-for-one-and-one-for-all ethos of the Quaker LACs, like Haverford, Swarthmore, Bryn Mawr, and Earlham. Some outstanding schools in that group, too. But I guess in the end it's a matter of personal preference, and I can see how at some larger schools especially, students would be attracted to fraternities and sororities to find a sense of community that otherwise may be difficult to stitch together on a campus-wide basis.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl, i disagree with you. good luck.</p>
<p>Neither my husband nor I were Greek. Our oldest daughters are not fond of the Greek system. However, my youngest DD decided to pledge. She rushed the first year, then declined an offer. She then rushed her sophomore year, and pledged. She really enjoyed the experience.</p>
<p>There were no Greek houses at her school. They had their chapter meetings at rooms in the student union. When there were "formals", the planning committee hired a bus to take everyone to the party. If you didn't ride the bus, you didn't know where the function was, and you couldn't get in. She said that they were great fun. She now has an organization to join, if she chooses in the new city where she lives. She was happy with her decision. She said that she didn't need the sorority, but had fun while she was a member. She really enjoyed all of the service activities that the chapter did. If she was happy, then we were happy.</p>
<p>I think that there is a lack of understanding of many outside of the Greek system. The historical exclusivity of these organizations is greatly changed since the 60s and 70s. Yes, some of the stereotypes remain, but there is so much more awareness today among young people about issues related to diversity, inclusiveness, wealth, etc. My impression is that a goodly number of those in today's sororities and fraternities are not there to display any type of exclusive attitude, but rather to create a greater circle of close friends. Many, many students (and alumni) think fondly of their times as members of Greek organizations and are not representative of the people/activities that gave Greek liife some of its notorious reputation.</p>
<p>Just my two cents, but I'd say go into with an open mind. You may like it, you may not. But to hate it before experiencing it is probably not a fair approach.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Pizzagirl, i disagree with you. good luck.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>How can you disagree with her recounting of her own experience?</p>
<p>
[quote]
...no matter which school you go to, if you are in a social sorority/fraternity, you'll have to drink and spend money on designer clothes.
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</p>
<p>This is just factually false, and can easily be disproved by counterexample (as others on this thread have done). That's the danger of making statements intended to be true for all cases.</p>
<p>I obviously can't refute her experience, but I disagree with her in principle. It's not false based on my experiences, and I lived in a hall freshman year where 60% of the guys were out of state, and just about 3/4 were rushing. </p>
<p>Obviously I made a generalization, and that's not very hard to tell, maybe I should have said in 95% of the cases I've seen. And in all the stories I've heard, there's hazing, and there's ton of "acting cool", which for girls meant looking good. You can nitpick my words, but I think I have the right to give my take, if you disagree, you can tell your story. </p>
<p>Exclusive or not, just look at the racial composition in the greek system. i'd love to hear a stories about top social fraternity/sorority accepting more than 1 or 2 token African/Latina/Asian American into their houses.(other than extreme cases like the UCs)</p>
<p>keefer, my brother helped found a new chapter of a fraternity at his rather large state university with a number of friends that were dissatisfied with the treatment they received while rushing some of the other fraternities the school had to offer. Since I went to college in the same city as them, occasionally I'd get invited to some activities they did. I wound up meeting a bunch of people from his fraternity and a pretty large number of them were minorities, and they even had two or three gay guys join who faced no discrimination (if they did, why would they be there?).</p>
<p>Following his graduation he spent a year working for the fraternity acting as a representative to all the other chapters, so he pretty much drove all over the country visiting them and making sure they were being responsible. He was amazed with the diversity in each chapter. Some were, indeed, "good 'ole boy" clubs with only wealthy white members, while others were as open to anyone as his own. There were a number of chapters he said he'd never rush. So it's really unfair to paint all organizations with such a broad brush.</p>
<p>Also, one of my good friends in undergraduate was on the football team, in the football frat at my school, and never touched alcohol. He was a big enough dude that I don't think anyone ever tried to pressure him into drinking, haha.</p>
<p>IMHO, you are doing your daughter a disservice. She should be able to form her own opinions. My husband and I were both greeks in the mid 70's. I was Vice President of my school's Panhellenic and ran rush for a year for 12 sororities--it was brutal for some girls. It was a very eye opening experience, leaving me with less than wonderful feelings. It changed me. Our oldest child went to the same school as my husband and had a wonderful greek experience. She found something in which she could identify in every sorority and kept an open mind as she visited each. Our youngest child is now a freshman at the same school and he can't fathom why he would have to PAY to belong to a frat and for friends. There are all kinds of sororities and frats--some are for community service. Nothing wrong with that! Going away to college is a transformational experience, but it should be all hers.</p>
<p>"Pizzagirl, i disagree with you. good luck."</p>
<p>ROFL, how can you disagree with me about what <em>I</em> experienced as a member / officer of a sorority?
Greek systems are as different as the schools that underlie them. My best friend in high school went to SMU, while I went to Northwestern. D'ya think that the Greek system and the pressures within are just a <em>tad</em> bit different between those two schools, given that she reported that some girls dropped out of schools altogether when they didn't make it into the Greek system? Of course -- because they reflect the underlying values of those schools.</p>
<p>Some Greek systems are set up to be exclusionary with many people chasing few spots. Others are set up to be inclusionary and there's a spot for everyone and no one spends time worrying about the pecking order.</p>
<p>As I've said, I meant to disagree with you on principle, you were the one who said "absolutely not true". I think people have a different take on what diversity means and what is considered "greek". I know students from all white towns who think having a couple of colored individuals is enough diversity, I'm from one of the poorest/ethnically diverse counties in the US, so my take is lil different. </p>
<p>Why is it that some sororities have the reputations of being jewish, blonde? look at the pictures! wow, because they really do pick based on looks. </p>
<p>If you're a black guy from the bronx, you are most likely going to join NPHC. Greek life just divides the campus into these little segments/cliques, and I do have friends from Northwestern...</p>
<p>Obviously there are exceptions, but if I were a parent, I wouldn't want my kids to live the stereotypical fraternity/sorority lifestyle, which I think is mostly true on most of today's campuses. And I think the OP can sort of steer his/her children a certain way given that the parent usually knows his/her children better than anyone else, of course the ultimate choice is with the child.</p>
<p>RacinReaver, ... ummm... Carnegie Mellon football.</p>
<p>I appreciate all the replies from so many people. Most of you seem to be parents. A few like Pizzagirl I would guess are students. </p>
<p>The word "exclusion" just keeps ringing in my ears when I think about Greek life. The clubby, we're better than you, we're special snobbery just galls me! Why can't a campus be one community instead of little separate communities. That's so high schoolish! I hated high school. I hated the cliques. Had it not been for my love of sports, I would not have made it through. Although I suppose I qualified as a jock, I palled around with everybody. I refused to limit myself socially to teammates, even though some of them didn't like me doing so. </p>
<p>Some of you who feel my opinion of Greek life is too harsh forgot about DePauw University a couple of years ago. They were all over the national news because the national chair of some campus sorority showed up and ordered the campus leaders to kick out the "unattractive girls." And they did! Why? Because they only wanted girls in the sorority who the fraternity boys they partnered with would find attractive. Why didn't the sorority national chair just call herself a "madam" or "procurer?" </p>
<p>My daughter just happens to look like she belongs on the cover of Vogue. That's not a father's biased opinion. Everyone who meets her for the first time socially asks if she's a model. And you should see the eyes of some college interviewers light up when they meet her. But I don't want her exposed to that exclusionary mindset I believe drives these organizations. My D wants to be friends with all kinds of girls and boys, people of every race and color, every sexual orientation, and social class. Some of those Greek orgs are racially exclusive! How horrible! This is 2008!</p>
<p>I can't think of anything good to come out of it. I admit I have a hard time refraining from speaking my opinion to my kids about Greeks. Maybe I think every frat and sorority is another Skull and Bones. I hate those upper class snobs. </p>
<p>Because of her looks my D would probably have no trouble getting into a sorority, but I don't want that mindset changing the type of good person she is, and I don't want her to be "pimped" by the sorority to some scummy spoiled frat boys like at DePauw.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl is almost definitely older than *you<a href="no%20disrespect%20Pizzagirl!">/I</a>. She graduated NU before most of the students here were born.</p>
<p>As for DePauw, those rumors are unsubstantiated-<a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-03-28-sorority_N.htm">http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-03-28-sorority_N.htm</a></p>
<p>Now, I'm absolutely not a fan of how the Pan-Hel organizations work. I would NEVER join a sorority. But I'm a very happy member of a fraternity. </p>
<p>I'm not going to bother arguing with you though- the sheer venom of your words illustrates that would be pointless.</p>
<p>Suffice to say phrases like "I hate those upper class snobs." make you at least as bad as the people you despise.</p>
<p>"top social fraternity/sorority accepting more than 1 or 2 token African/Latina/Asian American"</p>
<p>I like to think the top fraternities/sororities ARE African American!</p>
<p>And FWIW, I spend more time with my sorority now then I did in college.</p>
<p>^just shows how much (or little) keefer knows about fraternities/sororities. I also like this one:
keefer,
You never learn not to generalize like an expert when you <em>know</em> you are not? You sure have a lot to say based on so little.</p>
<p>To be fair, while I think African American Greek life is very different, generations ago at least, they WERE exclusionary . OTOH. I have a GREAT deal of respect for what these organizations do after the T-shirt part gets old.</p>
<p>Plainsman: There are some Greeks that are like what you're saying. Maybe even many or most. And I agree, there are major issues with those, or any other group that is that exclusionary. All pizzagirl and I are saying is keep and open mind...not ALL Greeks are like that, and if your D ends up at a school with a low or lower population of Greeks, it is even more likely than any Greek she does run into WON’T be like that.</p>
<p>I’ll use my school as an example, because I go to one of those liberal LACs with a low Greek population, along the lines of Oberlin (Wesleyan--less than 10% Greek, many of those don’t have houses), and yet, to my surprise, I joined a Greek. There is absolutely NOTHING exclusionary about us — even if we wanted to (which we DON’T!), we’d have a hard time claiming we are better than anybody or picking people based on looks, because so much of the campus just has absolutely no interest in joining us (and thinks we’re dorky…as I said, not the normal Greek!). Yes, it’s true that we have a selection process that means we don’t take everyone that wants a bid, but we only turn people away for real, well thought out reasons, not because they aren't "pretty" or "cool" or "like us" enough. And even then, we’ve never closed our doors to anyone for parties—many people who don’t get bids remain good “friends of the house” and come by a lot.</p>
<p>I’ve found my Greek a really special experience. We really do strive to make each other better people, and we work really hard to create a democratically self-governed community we can all be proud of — as my mom says, we’re striving for the same kind of community as people on communes did in the sixties. It’s not for everyone, but it’s definitely not the pressure-people-to-drink/have sex-hazeing-looks-based-catty-exclusionary Greek stereotype, and it’s rather hurtful to be lumped in with that kind of thing.</p>
<p>"The word "exclusion" just keeps ringing in my ears when I think about Greek life. The clubby, we're better than you, we're special snobbery just galls me!"</p>
<p>I think people who don't care for Greek systems spend a heck of a lot more time thinking "Look at those snobs, they must think they're better than me!" than those who are actually IN Greek systems are spending time thinking, "Wow, I'm better than them."</p>
<p>Any "you must think you're better than me" would be projection on the non-Greeks' part. I don't think you're hearing what some of us are saying - that for some of us, on some campuses, Northwestern among them, it just isn't like that. Sure, there are some houses that are known to attract a certain type of girl or guy. But so what? Birds of a feather flock together in friendship groups, too. And sure, there is some campus talk about this house being better than that one. But really, the Thetas are "allowed" to talk to the Kappas, who are "allowed" to talk to the Alpha Phis, who are "allowed" to talk to the DG's. It's not some stupid thing where god-forbid you talk to or become friends with someone not in your house.</p>
<p>"Obviously there are exceptions, but if I were a parent, I wouldn't want my kids to live the stereotypical fraternity/sorority lifestyle, which I think is mostly true on most of today's campuses."</p>
<p>Again - one more time with feeling - it depends on the campus. My house was one of those "angel" houses -- if anything, more on the goody two shoes, as arbiter might attest, LOL. At my sister's college (a large, less selective state university), they were, well, shall we say, less than well behaved. You simply can't generalize, and you can't take Animal House (a movie I love, btw) as a documentary.</p>
<p>"Exclusive or not, just look at the racial composition in the greek system. i'd love to hear a stories about top social fraternity/sorority accepting more than 1 or 2 token African/Latina/Asian American into their houses.(other than extreme cases like the UCs)"</p>
<p>Oh, puh-lease. Even in the unenlightened time of 20 years ago, dh's house had Afr-Am, Hispanic and Asian members. During his time there, an Afr-Am friend of his was the president and an Asian friend of his was some other officer (don't recall which one off the top of my head, but he remained friends with these 2 guys). My house had the same, and had a Hispanic president during the time I was there (who later went on to do Hispanic marketing) and an Afr-Am president a year or two after I graduated. It just wasn't the big deal you think it is.</p>